Income partner comp at V50 firms Forum

[Anonymous User]

At my DC-based V50, non-equity partners start with a base salary at the top of the associate scale, but they a) get zero benefits, have to pay health insurance etc. out-of-pocket and pay estimated taxes; and b) don't get annual base salary bumps like associates do. So pre-bonuses, they make less than senior associates.

The non-equity partner bonuses take everything into account - origination of work, hours, etc. - but are black box. A junior partner who hits the hours that would have qualified her for a bonus as an associate is likely going to get at least as big a bonus as the market scale for senior associates, and the bonus can easily be 2x-3x top of the associate bonus scale if you're billing a ton/bringing in work.

I know someone who was a non-equity partner for ~10 years, and she rarely if ever brought home more than $400k. She also didn't have any clients of her own and rarely if ever worked more than 1900 hours in a year, so that sounds like a perfectly good gig to me, basically of counsel with a title bump.

[Sackboy]

Thanks, all. This is depressing AF.

This is what's wrong with this profession. Income partners make between $400k and 800k a year and somehow that's depressing? Even if you never make equity partner, you're talking income of $12 to $24 mil over the rest of your career. How in the world is that depressing?

Probably one of those posters who cares about what bankers think of them.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, all. This is depressing AF.

This is what's wrong with this profession. Income partners make between $400k and 800k a year and somehow that's depressing? Even if you never make equity partner, you're talking income of $12 to $24 mil over the rest of your career. How in the world is that depressing?

Everybody is aware of how much biglaw attorneys make, obviously people leave the job because of the grind. It can be depressing to realize the payoff who stay through the grind and take on the additional responsibilities of a partner don't actually make that much more money than a senior associate.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, all. This is depressing AF.

This is what's wrong with this profession. Income partners make between $400k and 800k a year and somehow that's depressing? Even if you never make equity partner, you're talking income of $12 to $24 mil over the rest of your career. How in the world is that depressing?

Everybody is aware of how much biglaw attorneys make, obviously people leave the job because of the grind. It can be depressing to realize the payoff who stay through the grind and take on the additional responsibilities of a partner don't actually make that much more money than a senior associate.

That's probably the issue here. If you're an income partner, you're not taking on additional responsibilities. You are a super associate who works like an associate bit gets paid more money for it. You're not getting paid like an equity partner because you're not bringing in business like an equity partner.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, all. This is depressing AF.

This is what's wrong with this profession. Income partners make between $400k and 800k a year and somehow that's depressing? Even if you never make equity partner, you're talking income of $12 to $24 mil over the rest of your career. How in the world is that depressing?

Everybody is aware of how much biglaw attorneys make, obviously people leave the job because of the grind. It can be depressing to realize the payoff who stay through the grind and take on the additional responsibilities of a partner don't actually make that much more money than a senior associate.

That's probably the issue here. If you're an income partner, you're not taking on additional responsibilities. You are a super associate who works like an associate bit gets paid more money for it. You're not getting paid like an equity partner because you're not bringing in business like an equity partner.

This is a wrong statement, at least at my V10 firm with "income" (non-equity) partners. These partners have all the responsibilities as the equity ones, they run cases / deals in the same manner as the real partners, they're just stuck in a holding pattern waiting for the stars to align to get equity (or not). This is where two-tier partnerships dump everyone to get them to wait as long as possible until they get a shot at the brass ring. Because why pay someone $3m when you can pay them $500k to do the same work (that's the thinking of the equity partners as far as I can tell).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, all. This is depressing AF.

This is what's wrong with this profession. Income partners make between $400k and 800k a year and somehow that's depressing? Even if you never make equity partner, you're talking income of $12 to $24 mil over the rest of your career. How in the world is that depressing?

Everybody is aware of how much biglaw attorneys make, obviously people leave the job because of the grind. It can be depressing to realize the payoff who stay through the grind and take on the additional responsibilities of a partner don't actually make that much more money than a senior associate.

That's probably the issue here. If you're an income partner, you're not taking on additional responsibilities. You are a super associate who works like an associate bit gets paid more money for it. You're not getting paid like an equity partner because you're not bringing in business like an equity partner.

This is a wrong statement, at least at my V10 firm with "income" (non-equity) partners. These partners have all the responsibilities as the equity ones, they run cases / deals in the same manner as the real partners, they're just stuck in a holding pattern waiting for the stars to align to get equity (or not). This is where two-tier partnerships dump everyone to get them to wait as long as possible until they get a shot at the brass ring. Because why pay someone $3m when you can pay them $500k to do the same work (that's the thinking of the equity partners as far as I can tell).

I mean, isn't that exactly what 7th and 8th year associates do? Some make equity partner and some don't.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, all. This is depressing AF.

This is what's wrong with this profession. Income partners make between $400k and 800k a year and somehow that's depressing? Even if you never make equity partner, you're talking income of $12 to $24 mil over the rest of your career. How in the world is that depressing?

Everybody is aware of how much biglaw attorneys make, obviously people leave the job because of the grind. It can be depressing to realize the payoff who stay through the grind and take on the additional responsibilities of a partner don't actually make that much more money than a senior associate.

That's probably the issue here. If you're an income partner, you're not taking on additional responsibilities. You are a super associate who works like an associate bit gets paid more money for it. You're not getting paid like an equity partner because you're not bringing in business like an equity partner.

This is a wrong statement, at least at my V10 firm with "income" (non-equity) partners. These partners have all the responsibilities as the equity ones, they run cases / deals in the same manner as the real partners, they're just stuck in a holding pattern waiting for the stars to align to get equity (or not). This is where two-tier partnerships dump everyone to get them to wait as long as possible until they get a shot at the brass ring. Because why pay someone $3m when you can pay them $500k to do the same work (that's the thinking of the equity partners as far as I can tell).

I mean, isn't that exactly what 7th and 8th year associates do? Some make equity partner and some don't.

We’ve come (though, really, been there for awhile) to a point in the system where there isn’t good enough incentive for equity partners to support a perpetuating amount of younger attorneys by giving off credit for client relationships and making space “at the top.” It’s greed, sure, but the personality type that most often succeeds in this industry isn’t prone to handouts or resting on laurels—it’s a race to the top, and then a bit higher, and on and on again until death do us part.

Perhaps a decent time to sit back and reflect on the value of being happy making half a mil a year doing associate work and targeting 1800-1900 billables. Provides free time enough to enjoy life, and for those so inclined (or lucky), to open other streams of income. At the end of the day, who cares what people do when they leave the restaurant. It might be fun to wait tables, it might be rewarding to be really good at it and get that baller tip, but at the end of the day, it’s just service.

[beepboopbeep]

Man, where do y'all work where non equity partners are only billing 1800-1900.

[beepboopbeep]

Or, where they're not doing 500+ hours of pitch work even if they're "only" logging 1900 billable. Just never seen this and have worked with a bunch of them at this point. Without fail they've been worse off than senior associates gunning for partner, hours-wise.

[Anonymous User]

Man, where do y'all work where non equity partners are only billing 1800-1900.

I'm one of them at a V50. As long as I clear $1.7 mil in collections, I take home $560k+. In a niche practice group like mine with a high billing rate, that's roughly 1600 hrs but I've been around 1800 each of the last two years.

[Anonymous User]

Man, where do y'all work where non equity partners are only billing 1800-1900.

I'm one of them at a V50. As long as I clear $1.7 mil in collections, I take home $560k+. In a niche practice group like mine with a high billing rate, that's roughly 1600 hrs but I've been around 1800 each of the last two years.

Are you required to a certain amount of biz dev?

Do you get an additional bonus for each dollar collected in excess of the 1.7m collections

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

Is equity from nonequity actually achievable at your shop? There is one shop I've heard of where the jump from associate to nonequity is the tough job, whereas the nonequity to equity jump is to ensure you're not a colossal fuckup once you have responsibility.

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

Is equity from nonequity actually achievable at your shop? There is one shop I've heard of where the jump from associate to nonequity is the tough job, whereas the nonequity to equity jump is to ensure you're not a colossal fuckup once you have responsibility.

No it's the opposite here. Going from associate to non-equity, while not trivial, isn't terribly difficult; of those who are eligible each year it feels like 80-90% get it (while the remaining 10-20% get "the talk" or, very rarely, get routed over into an "of counsel" role). But once you've landed in non-equity you can be stuck there forever--getting from non-equity to equity is like winning the lottery.

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

This is absolutely the case at Sidley and several others where the comp gap between income and equity is huge.

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

This is absolutely the case at Sidley and several others where the comp gap between income and equity is huge.

I think it's the case at almost every V25 with a two-tier equity structure; there have been legal industry commentary pieces on this in the past few years; it's a key way firms are juicing their profits now. The other way around (non-equity is some chill equivalent of of counsel) is a very, very rare arrangement that I've personally never seen.

[Anonymous User]

Midlevel realizing that I am really killing it in a niche practice that would require me to do BD and bring in clients, which I absolutely hate, if I ever want to hit equity partner status. Any corporate practice that I could transition to that would not require me to be a rainmaker or are specialists really the only ones who fall into that category?

[Anonymous User]

Midlevel realizing that I am really killing it in a niche practice that would require me to do BD and bring in clients, which I absolutely hate, if I ever want to hit equity partner status. Any corporate practice that I could transition to that would not require me to be a rainmaker or are specialists really the only ones who fall into that category?

If you're in a niche practice then there will be demand. The practice of law is all about bringing clients. You'll get a few clients from a senior partner and then a random one from a conference or something, then a few by referral, and it will pick up. It's easier to do when you become more senior so just stick it out. The whole boom and bust landscape of deals, where there are thousands of lawyers who do the same thing, is a much tougher gig imo.

[Anonymous User]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

This is absolutely the case at Sidley and several others where the comp gap between income and equity is huge.

I think it's the case at almost every V25 with a two-tier equity structure; there have been legal industry commentary pieces on this in the past few years; it's a key way firms are juicing their profits now. The other way around (non-equity is some chill equivalent of of counsel) is a very, very rare arrangement that I've personally never seen.

Isn't Sidley just equity partnership?

[nahumya]

No required business development but sometimes I'll get asked to do CLE presentations. Like once a year or less.

I don't make a dime over my collections target, so I'm incenticized to keep my hours low. But sometimes projects will take a while to collect, so I like to go over by a bit each year just in case.

This isn't a typical experience. I'm at a V25 with a two-tier partnership and the non-equity partners are generally worked to the bone based on the faint promise of "one day maybe you'll get equity." There really isn't a parallel option to just do a "chill" 1800 hours. I guess that might be what our "of counsel" title is used for (plus for older former equity partners) but very few of counsels are handed out. Non-equity partners here are viewed as among the most overworked / miserable bunch of attorneys, they're committed lifers who are in a state of limbo about their future and are expected to do everything an equity partner would do but at 1/8 of the comp. Morale is really bad among our ranks.

This is absolutely the case at Sidley and several others where the comp gap between income and equity is huge.

I think it's the case at almost every V25 with a two-tier equity structure; there have been legal industry commentary pieces on this in the past few years; it's a key way firms are juicing their profits now. The other way around (non-equity is some chill equivalent of of counsel) is a very, very rare arrangement that I've personally never seen.

Isn't Sidley just equity partnership?

No, half of the partners are equity.

[Anonymous User]

So back on the topic of general comp for income partners, assuming a v50 firm with a two-tier partnership, is it totally hit or miss what the income partner comp range will look like, or are external indicators like PPP generally indicative at all of what income partner comp looks like (i.e., at a firm with a PPP of $1.5m income partners could expect to be around $450k-500k whereas at a firm with a PPP of $3m that number might be $600-700k)?

[hdr]

So back on the topic of general comp for income partners, assuming a v50 firm with a two-tier partnership, is it totally hit or miss what the income partner comp range will look like, or are external indicators like PPP generally indicative at all of what income partner comp looks like (i.e., at a firm with a PPP of $1.5m income partners could expect to be around $450k-500k whereas at a firm with a PPP of $3m that number might be $600-700k)?

Junior non-equity partners tend to do better the higher you go up the Vault chain. High PPP by itself doesn't mean much.

[Raiden]

Is PPP pretty indicative of what equity partners make? Would be nice if they provided a median too.

[Anonymous User]

Is PPP pretty indicative of what equity partners make? Would be nice if they provided a median too.

Depends on the firm. The higher up the rankings, the more likely it is that is what equity partners are making. Most of the elite firms are banded or similar with their comp with the vast majority of the partners falling in a 3-4x band. So if PPP is 4 million, they are probably between 2 and 8 million with a few outliers. But again, this is highly firm dependent.

My understanding is that lower firms are largely eat what you kill (and I hear Kirkland is mostly this way as well), where as higher ranked firms definitely require business, but reward client teams, etc.