NY to 200k?! Forum

[Anonymous User]

KE NSP. They raised my base salary by 25k, which is exactly what they should have done to stay market competitive, so it looks like Kirkland is following the prevailing market standard even though NSP comp. is technically a "black box." Good for them and good for me. Looking forward to a good EoY bonus.

[doctor]

KE NSP. They raised my base salary by 25k, which is exactly what they should have done to stay market competitive, so it looks like Kirkland is following the prevailing market standard even though NSP comp. is technically a "black box." Good for them and good for me. Looking forward to a good EoY bonus.

Mind sharing your class year and salary to compare with the market?

[doctor]

Updated V50 grid based on the discussion above. Looks like ATL is behind the times.

205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Gibson, Cleary, W&C, Debevoise, Wilmer, MoFo, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, BB, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• S&C, Latham, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, Linklaters, Shearman

Off-market:

• Wachtell, Williams, Jones Day (lol)

[malibustacy]

Updated V50 grid based on the discussion above. Looks like ATL is behind the times.

205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Gibson, Cleary, W&C, Debevoise, Wilmer, MoFo, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, BB, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• S&C, Latham, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, Linklaters, Shearman

Off-market:

• Wachtell, Williams, Jones Day (lol)

I still don't understand the motivation behind the whole 202.5 thing.

[Yardbird]

We’re losing sight of what’s important here. What happened to the Skadden retention bonuses??

[doctor]

I still don't understand the motivation behind the whole 202.5 thing.

They save about $1000 per head: half during the summer and half during the stub year. It seems like a braindead move considering broke-ass law students are probably going to take this into account when picking firms. If you're a top student with tons of offers and no idea how to pick between them eliminating everyone at 202.5 is going to be an easy way to narrow it down.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

The market doesn’t match Wachtell. You can look at vault and nalp, where it states as much. Wachtell salaries are always set at 5k above market. And the market never matches Williams, which doesn’t give bonuses. You should check ATL. Williams went to $200k for first years in 2015. That was before the market raises to 180. I don’t know this is hard to believe…

I didn't know about that. Not matching Williams makes sense given the lack of bonuses but I struggle to understand why the market wouldn't match Wachtell.

Because matching Wachtell would be insanely expensive for almost any firm and not matching them costs you lawyers to one firm.

Whereas matching Cravath is not that expensive, but not matching it costs you lawyers to 50+ firms.

[ExpOriental]

The market doesn’t match Wachtell. You can look at vault and nalp, where it states as much. Wachtell salaries are always set at 5k above market. And the market never matches Williams, which doesn’t give bonuses. You should check ATL. Williams went to $200k for first years in 2015. That was before the market raises to 180. I don’t know this is hard to believe…

I didn't know about that. Not matching Williams makes sense given the lack of bonuses but I struggle to understand why the market wouldn't match Wachtell.

I'm struggling to understand why you're struggling to understand

[Anonymous User]

Let's go people. Let's celebrate Juneteenth with some raises!

[Anonymous User]

Let's go people. Let's celebrate Juneteenth with some raises!

There are reports out of DC of Covington and AP associates gathering at BLM plaza in solidarity, singing "Lift Every Voice and Sing" and demanding market pay.

[Anonymous User]

Updated V50 grid based on the discussion above. Looks like ATL is behind the times.

205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Gibson, Cleary, W&C, Debevoise, Wilmer, MoFo, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, BB, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• S&C, Latham, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, Linklaters, Shearman

Off-market:

• Wachtell, Williams, Jones Day (lol)

I still don't understand the motivation behind the whole 202.5 thing.

Will any of the 202.5 firms move up into 205 camp??

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

I still don't understand the motivation behind the whole 202.5 thing.

They save about $1000 per head: half during the summer and half during the stub year. It seems like a braindead move considering broke-ass law students are probably going to take this into account when picking firms. If you're a top student with tons of offers and no idea how to pick between them eliminating everyone at 202.5 is going to be an easy way to narrow it down.

I, as a dumbass law student, almost picked a firm because they paid 165 for starting associates instead of 160. Longterm, the 165 firm was going to be much worse for my career, but 5K is 5K. Can confirm that law students will definitely use this to decide.

[nahumya]

Updated V50 grid based on the discussion above. Looks like ATL is behind the times.

205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Gibson, Cleary, W&C, Debevoise, Wilmer, MoFo, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, BB, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• S&C, Latham, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, Linklaters, Shearman

Off-market:

• Wachtell, Williams, Jones Day (lol)

I still don't understand the motivation behind the whole 202.5 thing.

Will any of the 202.5 firms move up into 205 camp??

Yes

[Sackboy]

Let's go people. Let's celebrate Juneteenth with some raises!

There are reports out of DC of Covington and AP associates gathering at BLM plaza in solidarity, singing "Lift Every Voice and Sing" and demanding market pay.

This is good content.

[Anonymous User]

Any info about Desmarais? I've heard they committed to raising but I haven't heard anything concrete about the numbers

[Untitleddestiny]

Updated V50 grid based on the discussion above. Looks like ATL is behind the times.

205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Gibson, Cleary, W&C, Debevoise, Wilmer, MoFo, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, BB, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• S&C, Latham, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, Linklaters, Shearman

Off-market:

• Wachtell, Williams, Jones Day (lol)

I really don't get that 205 list. Almost none of those firms actually committed to 205. I think Willkie and Cooley are actually the only ones that dis if I remember right. There is a huge difference between listing 2021 @ 205k explicitly and starting 2020 @ 205k without saying a word about 2021 which is what most those firms did. Someone should probably update the list too; there are quite a fee firms missing.

[Untitleddestiny]

On another note I don't get what it is with people disparaging litigation and lit partnership odds. Quinn and Fish for example have great PPPs despite the heavy lit focus. Irell also has a phenomenal RPL and PPP despite it's last few difficult years and intensified patent lit re-focus. I suppose the type of litigation matters but K&E is also theoretically considered a top patent lit firm too so it doesn't make much sense to me why people would assume it is hard to justify lit partnership there (at least in that group) when attorneys at Irell or Quinn seem to be doing fine.

[jm2819]

Yes, of course. I did OCI during the summer of 2018 and had a 1L SA where the firm raised to 190K during that summer. During OCI, my first attempt of narrowing down the list of firms where I wanted to interview was by eliminating any firm that didn’t raise to 190K yet. I figured that if I was going to big law and work in a transactional practice , I wanted to be at a firm that was going to raise salaries and pay market. Everything else seemed secondary.

I still don't understand the motivation behind the whole 202.5 thing.

They save about $1000 per head: half during the summer and half during the stub year. It seems like a braindead move considering broke-ass law students are probably going to take this into account when picking firms. If you're a top student with tons of offers and no idea how to pick between them eliminating everyone at 202.5 is going to be an easy way to narrow it down.

I, as a dumbass law student, almost picked a firm because they paid 165 for starting associates instead of 160. Longterm, the 165 firm was going to be much worse for my career, but 5K is 5K. Can confirm that law students will definitely use this to decide.

[TTTTransactional]

Updated V50 grid based on the discussion above. Looks like ATL is behind the times.

205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Gibson, Cleary, W&C, Debevoise, Wilmer, MoFo, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, BB, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• S&C, Latham, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, Linklaters, Shearman

Off-market:

• Wachtell, Williams, Jones Day (lol)

IThere is a huge difference between listing 2021 @ 205k explicitly and starting 2020 @ 205k without saying a word about 2021 which is what most those firms did.

Lol no, there isn't.

Salaries have always been listed like that. The whole stub thing was just created out of thin air this go-round. Class of 2021 hasn't started yet. When they do, they'll be making typical first year starting salary at firms that didn't buy into that asinine distinction.

Surely you don't think the implication is that 2021 will be making 190k still at places without said distinction...right?

[Anonymous User]

On another note I don't get what it is with people disparaging litigation and lit partnership odds. Quinn and Fish for example have great PPPs despite the heavy lit focus. Irell also has a phenomenal RPL and PPP despite it's last few difficult years and intensified patent lit re-focus. I suppose the type of litigation matters but K&E is also theoretically considered a top patent lit firm too so it doesn't make much sense to me why people would assume it is hard to justify lit partnership there (at least in that group) when attorneys at Irell or Quinn seem to be doing fine.

Quinn’s leverage is 4.3, far, far closer to Cravath and Kirkland (both ~4.7) than W&C (2.08). So I wouldn’t compare the two firms at all in terms of partnership prospects or substantive work afforded to associates.

Irell has less leverage than W&C (1.4), and muchhhhh higher PPP, but it does plaintiffs work too which explains much of the upside. (Irell’s healthy PPP/RPL is because of its restructuring to focus on IP, not “despite” it.) I think the same is true of Fish based on website. Both shops are also heavy IP focus, which of course is a no-go for many lit associates.

I don’t know why associates would care about PPP without taking leverage into account, since those figures are so correlated. Seems weird to me. Paul Weiss has great PPP and RPL but I certainly wouldn’t want to be a 5th year litigator looking to make partner (or build substantive skills of note) there. No offense to my PW friends, but I’m sure you’re all nodding your head in agreement anyway. That PPP number is mostly illusory for most associates.

MTO seems to be the best place to be. PEP of ~$1.8 million in a down year and leverage of 1.17. Seems like the associates can/do make partner and the reward for that realistic opportunity is sweet.

[Untitleddestiny]

On another note I don't get what it is with people disparaging litigation and lit partnership odds. Quinn and Fish for example have great PPPs despite the heavy lit focus. Irell also has a phenomenal RPL and PPP despite it's last few difficult years and intensified patent lit re-focus. I suppose the type of litigation matters but K&E is also theoretically considered a top patent lit firm too so it doesn't make much sense to me why people would assume it is hard to justify lit partnership there (at least in that group) when attorneys at Irell or Quinn seem to be doing fine.

Quinn’s leverage is 4.3, far, far closer to Cravath and Kirkland (both ~4.7) than W&C (2.08). So I wouldn’t compare the two firms at all in terms of partnership prospects or substantive work afforded to associates.

Irell has less leverage than W&C (1.4), and muchhhhh higher PPP, but it does plaintiffs work too which explains much of the upside. (Irell’s healthy PPP/RPL is because of its restructuring to focus on IP, not “despite” it.) I think the same is true of Fish based on website. Both shops are also heavy IP focus, which of course is a no-go for many lit associates.

I don’t know why associates would care about PPP without taking leverage into account, since those figures are so correlated. Seems weird to me. Paul Weiss has great PPP and RPL but I certainly wouldn’t want to be a 5th year litigator looking to make partner (or build substantive skills of note) there. No offense to my PW friends, but I’m sure you’re all nodding your head in agreement anyway. That PPP number is mostly illusory for most associates.

MTO seems to be the best place to be. PEP of ~$1.8 million in a down year and leverage of 1.17. Seems like the associates can/do make partner and the reward for that realistic opportunity is sweet.

I know Irell is doing well because of IP focus, I meant more that the changes were big and may have given the impression it was a sinking ship to many. The focus difference make sense though but part of my point too was how people were discussing that lit isn't viable long term at K&E but that seems nonsensical given Quinn manages purely off lit.

[Anonymous User]

Wait so...Skadden retention bonuses were entirely false? Should I stop signing up for pro bono to bring me to 2000 annualization?

[Ultramar vistas]

Wait so...Skadden retention bonuses were entirely false? Should I stop signing up for pro bono to bring me to 2000 annualization?

Skadden’s big news was that they lowered the number of class years to become counsel from 7.5 to 6.5.

To be fair, I guess that’s nice to hear if you’re a Skadden mid level who is considering sticking it out, but yeah it wasn’t anything interesting to the wider community.

[Anonymous User]

Is it accurate to say that now a given associate would make counsel at Skadden at the same time they would make non-share partner at Kirkland? C/O 2015 is the class up for NSP this year at K&E; they will officially take on the title of “partner” in October.