NY to 200k?! Forum

[Anonymous User]

Shocked Fish raised so soon, but yay! Assuming my peer (well, I guess no one really is a peer to Fish) IP firm will follow.

[photographer143]

So are we 202.5 or 205?

[Anonymous User]

Guess we have to rely on the few other firms who’ve made bold moves with bonuses recently (STB, Cooley, Willkie). DPW was my big hope and they delivered at least a little bit, the others are a longer shot.

Probably a blip in the grand scheme of things, but as a recent grad I will never forget Cooley's bold move of prorating pay for Summer 2020 instead of full pay. That was more than $14k.

[Anonymous User]

Ten years ago the separation wasn't nearly as pronounced. Making $1.1m at Williams while your friend from school is making $1.5m at Ropes isn't that big of deal. Making $1.5m there while that other guy is making $4 suddenly makes you start questioning life decisions.

Except that isn't exactly how things work these days. Firms used to be lockstep or have a much narrower spreads between the top and bottom earning partners. Wachtell and Cravath aside (I think the only two remaining lockstep partnerships), at places like DPW, Kirkland, etc. the rain makers are bringing home $10M+ and the median partner might not actually be that much better off than at a firm that has a $2M PPP. We'd really need to know how each firm chooses to operate.

Debevoise and Cleary are also lockstep. Note that there is a chasm of difference between DPW and STB’s modified lockstep versus Latham and especially Kirkland.

I think STB may have moved closer to Kirkland in recent years, with spreads moving from 4:1 (top to bottom of equity) to 6/7:1. (There's also a growing non-equity partner cadre. The pension was once second only to Cravath, and I think that may have changed with the lateral influx, too.)

I'd heard murmurings that Cleary had also modified/introduced a bonus pool to keep certain heavy-hitters after the Freshfields exodus in late-2019, but not confirmed. Of NY firms, by my reckoning the last pure lockstep firms are Cravath and Debevoise.

I agree that there's a point about "modified lockstep" vs pure "eat what you kill"/"black box", though. In the modified category, DPW, Paul Weiss, Cleary, and Wachtell (which isn't pure lockstep, since Marty Lipton and Herb Wachtell are still rumoured to be way off the charts) are very different from LW, K&E, Skadden, Ropes and Jones Day.

I'd be interested in median equity partner draws alongside the mean figures that AmLaw publishes. In classic lockstep firms (and still at most lightly modified firms) I'd guess they're similar numbers. I'd suspect that at Kirkland, Latham, and Ropes they're quite different.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think people ITT are comprehending just how much richer the V10 (and select members of the V25) have gotten in the past 10 and particularly 5 years. That's the point about why Williams looks like a dinosaur that the other guy is trying to make because I don't see how it withstands that sort of profit / talent competition for long. The fact that their revenue dipped 15% 18 to 19 is pretty damning.

I don't know how many times people ITT need to tell you this: For juniors, the choice isn't $2M at K&E vs $1M at Williams, it's $1M (or w/e) at Williams or permanent associate/NSP status at a K&E.

K&E (and Davis Polk, and STB -- this isn't a K&E flame) have no interest -- none -- in giving equity to young, talented commercial litigators with no book of business. OK, they might do it, once in a blue moon, for diversity. That's it. Those firms are rich because they don't do the work Williams does. They do deals.

Now, if your point is "Well Latham etc can buy out the rainmakers at Williams and then the place is fucked" -- that's a separate issue. And yeah, maybe? Sort of an existential issue at all law firms, though -- it's not really Williams-specific.

I am a KE associate and don’t like the place but this is simply not true. In DC for example (KE’s most lit heavy office, per capita) I’d say one litigator makes shares per class year on average. In the past couple years alone there’s been a year with two home-grown litigators making shares (one without a SCOTUS clerkship, even). The entering litigation associate classes are probably 12-15 associates. So that’s like a 7% chance from the jump to make shares as a litigator. I have no clue how that compares to transactional practice (worse, I’m sure, but dunno how much worse) but it’s far from a total pipe dream and I’d say the people who really want it and are on track for it by like their 5th year, when some colleagues have washed out and others have opted out of biglaw on their own, have competitive but realistic shots at it. These are the ones who are billing north of 2500 every year and probably close to 3000 every other year when they get pulled on to trials because the partners like them and the have lost the part of their brain that can say “no.”

Yes, that might be true for the DC office, but in the NY office, I think there has only been one homegrown litigator who's made shares in the last 10 years, with entering classes of 12-15 associates. I can think of some non-NSP classes that barely have any homegrown associates left. So sure, I guess if you're a litigator in the DC office you could say you have a 7% chance (though I'd say that's probably an overestimate), but firm-wide I'd say it's closer to 1%, which is pretty darn close to none, as the guy you're replying to said.

I think the ultimate point is that making shares at KE is fucking hard, and making shares as a litigator at KE is even fucking harder.

[Anonymous User]

So for the firms that list salary bumps for classes 2013 ($365,000) through 2020 ($205,0000), but make no mention of the class of 2021, are incoming first-years at $205,000?

[Anonymous User]

No one is raising, will be calls across the board. Haven't been following all 30+ pages of this thread but unless STB dives in with a raise at the midlevel+ bracket we're not going to see any developments. Rest of the V10 and usual suspects (do not make this into a WilliamsConnolly and JD thread pls) in the v30 will match and then it's a question about what happens throughout the rest of the v50.

When is Williams just going to collapse? Their numbers don't look great:

https://www.law.com/law-firm-profile/?i ... nnolly-LLP

I feel like they're one major round of partner defections away from just imploding. They were such a cool firm back in the day when you could be litigation forward as a biglaw firm but they seem like a dinosaur in an age of exploding transactional profits. Even as a litigator why would I want to work there when I could go somewhere where I had the safety net of a robust m&a / cap mkts / debt finance etc. practice.

Williams’ salary scale (PRE-salary raises, at least.) was far ahead of what is reported on Vault. I think 4th year salary may have started with a 3. No bonuses though.). I imagine they’ll move to, albeit late and, as almost always, silently.

my understanding (speaking with knowledge, so just delete if considering deleting-anon) is that the average associate doesn’t bill nearly as many hours as the average Lit or corp associate in NYC. Take that for whatever it’s worth. there’s a reason law students still flock to the firm
notwithstanding a pretty substantial pay gap beginning year 3 or 4, which only widens as time goes on. But I agree that we are now living in a time where money talks.

This, and also speaking with knowledge - it's true WC's profits will never be as sky-high as heavy transactional firms, but they absolutely do keep up with market but just don't publicize it. It's also a "dinosaur" in that you can actually make partner there. Last I heard - and granted this was a couple years ago - midlevels could cruise at 1500-1800 hours (and you'd be making more than a lit associate at another firm in DC, because they all have hours reqs for bonuses) OR they could be doing 2200-2400 hours. Those doing 1600 hours are still making good pay and could use the preftige to jump to a government job whenever they want. Those doing 2300 hours may technically be underpaid compared to the rest of DC, but if they keep it up, are genuinely likely to make partner if they want to stick around and do that level of work. You'll never rake in $3 million/year like an STB partner, but you'll be a trial lawyer (which is what some people want in their careers) making $1 million, which is not bad at all in DC.

tldr WC is a good gig from everything I've heard.

not sure if my friends just had bad luck or if this isn't true any longer, but they were regularly billing 240+. they both left the firm recently after the math no longer made sense (and i understood others did the same), so cant imagine anyone left has great work/life balance atp.

[Anonymous User]

STB matched:

Class of 2020 - $205,000
Class of 2019 - $215,000
Class of 2018 - $240,000
Class of 2017 - $275,000
Class of 2016 - $305,000
Class of 2015 - $330,000
Class of 2014 - $350,000
Class of 2013 - $365,000

Does this mean class of 2021 get 205k rather than 202.5k when they start, including for the stub year? Seen that CSM, Willkie and Skadden have released info like this too.

I don’t know if anyone ever answered this definitively, but yes. Stub years are at 205 too for STB.

[Anonymous User]

Shocked Fish raised so soon, but yay! Assuming my peer (well, I guess no one really is a peer to Fish) IP firm will follow.

Assuming you mean IP only, it's really just Fish and Finnegan remaining. Maybe Knobbe or Sterne. Everyone else seems to have been gobbled up (Kenyon, Fitzpatrick, other Fish, ect).

[Anonymous User]

Baker Botts matched DPW scale

[Anonymous User]

Cooley match. Stubs @ $205k

Where'd you see this?

[Chrstgtr]

So for the firms that list salary bumps for classes 2013 ($365,000) through 2020 ($205,0000), but make no mention of the class of 2021, are incoming first-years at $205,000?

I get that you and the other 2 or 3 people posting every page to ask about the 202.5 vs 205 are concerned about what you'll be making next year, but the memo says what it says. There either is or isn't a differentiation between 1st years and subs at whatever firm.

And there is no reason to get so worked up about it--even if you get paid 202.5 during your sub year you will only make like $500 less after taxes compared to your peers at 205 firms.

[doctor]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

[barwhat]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, Cooley, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

Cooley’s at $205k, per nonequitypartner’s IG.

[Anonymous User]

Cooley match. Stubs @ $205k

Where'd you see this?

I’m summering at Cooley so I posted when I got the email, but it’s also on nonequitypartner’s IG story now

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

This is not up to date. Gibson, White & Case all matched the PW scale yesterday.

[Anonymous User]

MoFo and Gibson both matched DPW (202.5 stub) yesterday per nonequity partner.

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, Cooley, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

Cooley’s at $205k, per nonequitypartner’s IG.

I’m at one the 190 firms (closer to the beginning of your list) and I think people are getting antsy. I’m sure it’ll happen eventually but with all the movement yesterday the delay seems a bit odd.

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

This is not up to date. Gibson, White & Case all matched the PW scale yesterday.

Wachtell has never been at 190. Was at 195k. Would imagine they’d move to $210k base eventually, but doubt it’d be confirmed in this board/ATL. Although maybe it would for nalp and vault purposes, since they don’t keep that secret. First year salary at Williams and Connolly has well above $200k for at least two years now, too. (Vault, which lists their salary scale beginning at $200k, is wrong.)

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

This is not up to date. Gibson, White & Case all matched the PW scale yesterday.

Wachtell has never been at 190. Was at 195k. Would imagine they’d move to $210k base eventually, but doubt it’d be confirmed in this board/ATL. Although maybe it would for nalp and vault purposes, since they don’t keep that secret. First year salary at Williams and Connolly has well above $200k for at least two years now, too. (Vault, which lists their salary scale beginning at $200k, is wrong.)

What are WC salaries (starting or otherwise)? I've only heard anecdotally but it wasn't that much higher than market and the fact that they don't do annual bonuses makes comp lower than market at the end of the day (which i think is why compensation is one of the "negatives" reported on Vault)

Also, not that Vault matters for anything, but i don't understand how Jones Day hasn't plummeted in the last couple years. The black box compensation, bad press, associate dissatisfaction, etc etc.

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

This is not up to date. Gibson, White & Case all matched the PW scale yesterday.

Wachtell has never been at 190. Was at 195k. Would imagine they’d move to $210k base eventually, but doubt it’d be confirmed in this board/ATL. Although maybe it would for nalp and vault purposes, since they don’t keep that secret. First year salary at Williams and Connolly has well above $200k for at least two years now, too. (Vault, which lists their salary scale beginning at $200k, is wrong.)

What are WC salaries (starting or otherwise)? I've only heard anecdotally but it wasn't that much higher than market and the fact that they don't do annual bonuses makes comp lower than market at the end of the day (which i think is why compensation is one of the "negatives" reported on Vault)

Also, not that Vault matters for anything, but i don't understand how Jones Day hasn't plummeted in the last couple years. The black box compensation, bad press, associate dissatisfaction, etc etc.

Pre-raises, I believe first years were at 225, and 4th years were at $300 or above. Or course, again, no bonuses, so not “above market” after the first few years of practice. And definitely below market beginning 4th year I believe once factoring in bonuses (not including COViD bonuses or recent raises).

I’m sure an associate could chime in with the full scale, but (much like WLRK and it’s bonuses), I don’t think anyone has much of an appetite to do so.

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

This is not up to date. Gibson, White & Case all matched the PW scale yesterday.

Wachtell has never been at 190. Was at 195k. Would imagine they’d move to $210k base eventually, but doubt it’d be confirmed in this board/ATL. Although maybe it would for nalp and vault purposes, since they don’t keep that secret. First year salary at Williams and Connolly has well above $200k for at least two years now, too. (Vault, which lists their salary scale beginning at $200k, is wrong.)

If Wach and Willy raised salaries a long time ago how come the rest of the market didn't match, but did so for Milbank? This seems hard to believe.

[Anonymous User]

Here's where I think we're at with the V50. Did I miss anyone?


205 Crew:

• Cravath, Skadden, Kirkland, STB, PW, PH, Cooley, Ropes, O'Melveny, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Willkie, A&O

202.5 Crew:

• DPW, Cleary, Debevoise, Wilmer, Hogan, Proskauer, Boies, Goodwin, Akin, BM, WSGR, Munger, FF

Still @ 200:

• Milbank, W&S

Still @ 190:

• Wachtell, S&C, Latham, Gibson, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, Covington, W&C, W&C, MoFo, APKS, Orrick, K&S, K&L, Perkins, Clifford, BB, Linklaters, Shearman

lol

• Jones Day

This is not up to date. Gibson, White & Case all matched the PW scale yesterday.

Wachtell has never been at 190. Was at 195k. Would imagine they’d move to $210k base eventually, but doubt it’d be confirmed in this board/ATL. Although maybe it would for nalp and vault purposes, since they don’t keep that secret. First year salary at Williams and Connolly has well above $200k for at least two years now, too. (Vault, which lists their salary scale beginning at $200k, is wrong.)

If Wach and Willy raised salaries a long time ago how come the rest of the market didn't match, but did so for Milbank? This seems hard to believe.

The market doesn’t match Wachtell. You can look at vault and nalp, where it states as much. Wachtell salaries are always set at 5k above market. And the market never matches Williams, which doesn’t give bonuses. You should check ATL. Williams went to $200k for first years in 2015. That was before the market raises to 180. I don’t know this is hard to believe…both statements were literally public knowledge/reported on.

[Anonymous User]

The market doesn’t match Wachtell. You can look at vault and nalp, where it states as much. Wachtell salaries are always set at 5k above market. And the market never matches Williams, which doesn’t give bonuses. You should check ATL. Williams went to $200k for first years in 2015. That was before the market raises to 180. I don’t know this is hard to believe…

I didn't know about that. Not matching Williams makes sense given the lack of bonuses but I struggle to understand why the market wouldn't match Wachtell.

[Anonymous User]

The market doesn’t match Wachtell. You can look at vault and nalp, where it states as much. Wachtell salaries are always set at 5k above market. And the market never matches Williams, which doesn’t give bonuses. You should check ATL. Williams went to $200k for first years in 2015. That was before the market raises to 180. I don’t know this is hard to believe…

I didn't know about that. Not matching Williams makes sense given the lack of bonuses but I struggle to understand why the market wouldn't match Wachtell.

Wachtell would simply keep raising until it was above market again. Special bonuses were also above market (one lump sum payment in summer.) and obviously no firm wants to/is going to get into a pissing contest with the firm over end-of-year bonuses. So the market pretty much ignores firms like Wachtell, Williams (which is under market anyway after a few years in), Susman, Kellogg, etc