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Posted: **Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:54 pm**

I am a junior associate at ropes. I am working so much I am worried I will hurt myself. They should be ashamed.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:36 am**

I’m sorry that you are that stressed. Please don’t hurt yourself, though. No job is worth it.

As to your point about them being ashamed, they pay you a very good salary specifically because they expect you to be available all the time. As many people will say on here, you knew or should have known what you were signing up for.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:44 am**

Man f this ^^ guy. Also a junior at Ropes, things are crazy rn, but start saying no to staffing and take a vacation. Market will cool down eventually.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 am**

Learning to say no early will put a lot of money in your pocket. You'll last longer and, besides, associates have immense leverage right now.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:56 am**

Anonymous User wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:44 am
Man f this ^^ guy. Also a junior at Ropes, things are crazy rn, but start saying no to staffing and take a vacation. Market will cool down eventually.

There’s nothing wrong in what I said. Firms pay first years money to be available at all times. You add no value other than your availability to work long and unpredictable hours. This is a well known fact. I was told this many times when I was a first/second year.

Saying that your firm should be “ashamed” is ridiculous when you’re getting paid as much as you are. You can always leave for a less stressful job.

As I said in my post, no job is worth that level of stress.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:11 am**

What kinda of person is on TLS, presumably late at night, to point out to anonymous juniors who are understandably experiencing at some level a mental health crisis that this is what they asked for? Is that supposed to make anyone feel better?

Also, I think it is pretty understandable to enter big law at some level understanding that you will be asked to work long, unpredictable hours without fully internalizing what that will feel like month after month. And when many big law associates are starting with 6 figure debt, it’s not like walking away for a “less stressful job” 6 months or a year in is a great idea either. There is certainly real career and financial pressure to stay.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:33 am**

Anonymous User wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:11 am
What kinda of person is on TLS, presumably late at night, to point out to anonymous juniors who are understandably experiencing at some level a mental health crisis that this is what they asked for? Is that supposed to make anyone feel better?

Also, I think it is pretty understandable to enter big law at some level understanding that you will be asked to work long, unpredictable hours without fully internalizing what that will feel like month after month. And when many big law associates are starting with 6 figure debt, it’s not like walking away for a “less stressful job” 6 months or a year in is a great idea either. There is certainly real career and financial pressure to stay.

I’m just on here while I wait for a turn of documents I have to review.

I get your point about not being able to leave because of financial pressure. But your mental health and sanity is more important than paying off debt. And there are options (PAYE, REPAYE, IBR) that people can take advantage of.

As to your point whit career pressure, I think that needs to get thrown out the window. There are many attorneys who have great careers after short stints at biglaw. I would regularly tell associates to lateral to another firm, but from what I’ve heard from friends, Ropes is as good as it gets for biglaw.

Associates have leverage now, but unfortunately, that doesn’t translate into fewer hours.

I don’t mean to come off as heartless or evil. I’ve just seen so many posts from first years talking about suicidal thoughts or extreme anxiety, etc. and it bothers me that people seem to think this job matters just as much as, if not more than, their mental health.

Edit: realized some of the stuff is just rambling, so deleted some but not all.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:13 am**

I think it is important to take stock of the big picture. It is JUST A JOB at the end of the day. We all strive to do a good job and do right by our firms and clients, but it is NEVER worth harming your own mental or physical health over. Take some time off and get away from work and go outside and just breathe and take in the sun. I’m a mid level and I had a crazy long year last year and I took some time off early this year to recompose myself.

Learning to say no is important. For those of us who have experience, perhaps we can share how we did it? Personally, one of my favorites that my mentor taught me when I was a junior was to ask when they need it, then give them a realistic timeline of when you can deliver because of X, Y, and Z current projects, and if they can give extended deadlines on existing projects or shift it to another associate for you to take on the new project, great. Otherwise, you’ll get to it when you tell them you can. This way you don’t ever drop the ball and promise what you cannot deliver.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:22 pm**

Ropes midlevel here. Please PM me if you want to talk. I'd recommend calling the firm's EAP line which connects you to free anonymous counseling. I may be botching the name of the program, but the information is on the Infonet. This job definitely isnt worth hurting yourself over or sacrificing your mental health. In my experience, Ropes does not want that and would want to know you feel so overwhelmed. There are things the firm can and will do, including giving you a mental health leave. Please reach out to someone for help! Speaking up and asking for help will only make things better!

Edit: I will say things are insane at the firm right now, especially in certain groups. You are not alone in feeling very very overwhelmed, and I do blame the firm for letting it get this bad as some bad decisions at the firm absolutely contributed to this. Don't let the firm destroy you though! It's not worth it.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:35 pm**

smile0751 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Ropes midlevel here. Please PM me if you want to talk. I'd recommend calling the firm's EAP line which connects you to free anonymous counseling. I may be botching the name of the program, but the information is on the Infonet. This job definitely isnt worth hurting yourself over or sacrificing your mental health. In my experience, Ropes does not want that and would want to know you feel so overwhelmed. There are things the firm can and will do, including giving you a mental health leave. Please reach out to someone for help! Speaking up and asking for help will only make things better!

Edit: I will say things are insane at the firm right now, especially in certain groups. You are not alone in feeling very very overwhelmed, and I do blame the firm for letting it get this bad as some bad decisions at the firm absolutely contributed to this. Don't let the firm destroy you though! It's not worth it.

Agree with this. Firms as a whole are crappy, but a lot of the people working in them do care and will want to help you. I have never have had a situation where I wanted to hurt myself, but I have called my own firm's anonymous mental health line a few times and it helped. It's a good first step. I also think that you should take leave as this person suggests if you need it. And don't compare your situation to others (e.g., this other person is working insane hours so I should be able to as well)--everyone's threshold is different.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:06 pm**

I would be REALLY interested in hearing which groups are grinding associates at Ropes...because I know a few people that are partners at Ropes and in my opinion they're insane workaholics, and I'd imagine they'd be miserable to work for.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:20 am**

whats an updog wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:35 pm

smile0751 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Ropes midlevel here. Please PM me if you want to talk. I'd recommend calling the firm's EAP line which connects you to free anonymous counseling. I may be botching the name of the program, but the information is on the Infonet. This job definitely isnt worth hurting yourself over or sacrificing your mental health. In my experience, Ropes does not want that and would want to know you feel so overwhelmed. There are things the firm can and will do, including giving you a mental health leave. Please reach out to someone for help! Speaking up and asking for help will only make things better!

Edit: I will say things are insane at the firm right now, especially in certain groups. You are not alone in feeling very very overwhelmed, and I do blame the firm for letting it get this bad as some bad decisions at the firm absolutely contributed to this. Don't let the firm destroy you though! It's not worth it.
Agree with this. Firms as a whole are crappy, but a lot of the people working in them do care and will want to help you. I have never have had a situation where I wanted to hurt myself, but I have called my own firm's anonymous mental health line a few times and it helped. It's a good first step. I also think that you should take leave as this person suggests if you need it. And don't compare your situation to others (e.g., this other person is working insane hours so I should be able to as well)--everyone's threshold is different.

This. It took me a long time to overcome feeling like I was weak-willed once I realized I seemed to be at the lower band of the threshold. It isn't laziness or anything -- I really try to power through but when your body itself is giving out after a certain point it is what it is (though come to think of it maybe my refusal to drink coffee, let alone try other controlled stimulants doesn't help). Anyway, one day it clicked that wanting to be great at working up to 15 hours per day during weekdays and many hours per day on weekends just didn't make any sense, and I got over that feeling.

That being said, perhaps you can look into arranging some sort of flexible schedule situation that effectively caps how many deals you'll be staffed on at a given time. People might also suggest taking a vacation. That might be helpful for you, but doing so has never been particularly helpful to me. Within two weeks max of my return I am usually in the same untenable workload situation, plus I often spend the tail end of my vacation dreading my return to work.

Also, I know "don't hurt yourself!" isn't particularly deep or non-obvious advice, but don't hurt yourself! I've def been at the point where I've yearned for illness so I could get a bit of rest / have a tangible excuse to leave the industry. But cliched as this statement is, no job is worth hurting yourself over.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:30 am**

whats an updog wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:35 pm

smile0751 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:22 pm
And don't compare your situation to others (e.g., this other person is working insane hours so I should be able to as well)--everyone's threshold is different.
Admittedly I am at a less intense firm than Ropes, but what helped me the most with the anxiety of thinking everyone is working all the time is actually getting to know my coworkers. If all you know about them is that they work at your firm, you will imagine that all they do is work. After getting to know my fellow associates, I learned that this was definitely not the case. And, for the most part, the ones that were working truly insane hours had reasons for that. For example, one senior associate was working crazy hours because he had been told he had a good shot at making partner, but also knew he would be taking paternity leave in the fall. One associate was working extremely hard because she had gone through a broken engagement and had two straight months of sub-100 billable hours. One associate, my mentor, knew she would be leaving big law at the end of the year and wanted to maximize her last bonus. Its important to remember that, as much as big law firms try to stop them, we all live lives outside of our firm and, at times, those lives will dictate how much we can work.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:14 am**

I know that this may seem like a super obvious comment but, from your post, it appears that you are having trouble coping with the stress and negative feelings your job is generating for you. I think it may be important to use this phrase because hurting yourself is not an effective coping mechanism, whether through starvation because the anxiety kills your appetite, self-harm, substance abuse, or suicide. It's also important because you are not alone in struggling to cope with stress, because learning how to cope with difficult times is an ongoing venture for EVERYONE, and being in over your head re: workload isn't your fault.

My number ONE suggestion to you is to immediately re-prioritize your time/thoughts. You are your first priority right now - not R&G. They are just a firm. There are dozens of others like them. Your life is infinitely more valuable than the profits of a legal entity.

There are some steps you can take that will help you at least better position yourself for coping with the stress, they can be extremely difficult and annoying to deal with when you're constantly working but are still so important nonetheless, for example:

(1) Go to bed on time every night as best you can. Pick a bedtime & stick to it. Lack of sleep/sleep deprivation increases suicidality in people who are depressed by a significant %. This is well studied. Turn your phone on silent. No email that comes in at 3:00 am matters. If your clients expect you to be a robot, then they need to readjust because that's abusive. If you need to do something pre-market then wake up a little earlier.

(2) Eat right and consistently every day. If you deprive your body of nutrients you increase the physical stress it is under. Your emotional self will react in negative ways accordingly to this stress. Do not fight evolution. Sleep and food are high-priority to your brain and it will do anything to get them. We know that a poor diet has negative emotional effects.

(3) Take breaks during the day, get up from your computer, stretch, go outside, maybe take a walk. Exercising is an effective coping mechanism for stress, particularly running if you are able.

(4) Adopt a self-protective lifestyle at work which includes saying no to extra assignments wherever humanly possible, communicating with people you trust about where you are at, trying to build relationships with co-workers if you can and or like them. Schedule an appointment with a therapist. Go to: www.zocdoc.com to find a doctor that works for you. Maybe get a dog if you don't already have one. Call your friends and family, remember that you have so, so, so much ahead of you that has nothing to do with this one part of your life. Work is only one aspect of who you are and these deals do not define your value.

(5) Remember: You are in control. Nobody can force you to do anything. You have food, a bed, a roof. No matter what will happen in 2 months, in the present moment you are okay. If you quit tomorrow you will find another job, you can survive anything. Every worst day of your life is behind you, and every day that you survive your job is one day closer to the moment you quit. You are in control.

(6) Develop other hobbies. If you have let go of the ones you had before the job started get back to them. They can give you strength by allowing the creative parts of yourself to come out.

Message me if you need to talk.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:33 am**

nls336 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:14 am
(1) Go to bed on time every night as best you can. Pick a bedtime & stick to it. Lack of sleep/sleep deprivation increases suicidality in people who are depressed by a significant %. This is well studied. Turn your phone on silent. No email that comes in at 3:00 am matters. If your clients expect you to be a robot, then they need to readjust because that's abusive. If you need to do something pre-market then wake up a little earlier.

Hi there! I'm not at Ropes but do transactional at a major NY firm. I'm a midlevel now and during my time at this firm I tried very hard to set boundaries but always felt like I was "slacking" or being "selfish" for trying to maintain my sanity (I realize how totally crazy that sounds in any other context). Sorry if this is a dumb question but what would you say is a reasonable time to pick for logging off for the night? For example, I noticed my senior associates, even if they weren't logged in when the deal ebbed, were responding ASAP to emails on their phones up to at least midnight every single night if not later but that's definitely not what I aspire to!

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:33 pm**

annonnymous123 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:33 am

nls336 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:14 am
(1) Go to bed on time every night as best you can. Pick a bedtime & stick to it. Lack of sleep/sleep deprivation increases suicidality in people who are depressed by a significant %. This is well studied. Turn your phone on silent. No email that comes in at 3:00 am matters. If your clients expect you to be a robot, then they need to readjust because that's abusive. If you need to do something pre-market then wake up a little earlier.
Hi there! I'm not at Ropes but do transactional at a major NY firm. I'm a midlevel now and during my time at this firm I tried very hard to set boundaries but always felt like I was "slacking" or being "selfish" for trying to maintain my sanity (I realize how totally crazy that sounds in any other context). Sorry if this is a dumb question but what would you say is a reasonable time to pick for logging off for the night? For example, I noticed my senior associates, even if they weren't logged in when the deal ebbed, were responding ASAP to emails on their phones up to at least midnight every single night if not later but that's definitely not what I aspire to!

You have to follow your body's natural rhythms. I have always enjoyed waking up early so I am okay waking up at 4:30-5:00 AM to do work that came in overnight or respond to a few emails. This feels less like a burden to me than staying up late does. Though, if that's not the case for you then see sentence 1.

Ideally, I try to sleep around 10:00 PM every night or at least begin winding down by 9:00 PM sharp. If I have a lull during the day, I try to catch a nap, even if it's just 45 minutes of closing my eyes and thinking about something that makes me feel happy and grateful.

I try to treat sleep like the high priority goal it is for the body and I try to fight evolution as little as possible. In the past, when I have slept poorly regularly, I reliably found my mood deteriorated much, much faster than if I had gotten better sleep. Sleep deprivation also makes it difficult to maintain a healthy weight, increases stress hormones in the blood and brain, and robs you of the energy you'd otherwise have to live a full life, during non-work time, by spending time with loved ones and engaged in hobbies you care about, which is ultimately and truly the antidote to feeling trapped and unhappy (IMO).

In the end, having a depressed attitude during the day (even if it's reasonable because I am also struggling) only hurts me because I am the only person experiencing that mood so I do absolutely everything I can to help my mind regulate itself and my body. Sleep also helps me be more efficient -- only having to read something once vs 2-3 times because I can't keep my place since I'm tired, etc.

I am dedicated to this and will leave the firm happily if it were to become a problem for them. Any place that would have an issue with me going to sleep at night is NOT a place I would want to work. Nobody would expect you to work three days without eating or seven hours without going to the bathroom, why the expectation is that we can simply sacrifice sleep so often, I will never understand. I even did this the night before my last pre-market S-4 refiling with the SEC. It's true that other people will stay on late at night, the partner I work with will often send emails at 2:00 am to me. I choose to believe, after having worked with me for months now, that he knows I will respond to him when I wake up.

If you are responsive and do otherwise decent work then no partner or person should EVER make you feel like you HAVE to regularly sacrifice a healthy amount of sleep in such a high-stress job -- that is abusive.

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