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What kinds of things SAs will have to say/do to not get a return offer from a historically 100% offer rate firm? (Sometimes I get nervous and say the wrong things/use wrong word choice).

Don't strip down and go for a drunken swim in the Hudson River.

Bosque wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:53 pm

Don't strip down and go for a drunken swim in the Hudson River.

Aquagirl!

Don't say, in response to some diversity program, "where's the white male fellowship program"?

legalpotato wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:03 pm

Don't say, in response to some diversity program, "where's the white male fellowship program"?

That may get you an auto-offer + scholarship at Jones Day

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:07 pm

legalpotato wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:03 pm

Don't say, in response to some diversity program, "where's the white male fellowship program"?

That may get you an auto-offer + scholarship at Jones Day

Auto-partnership

Avoid sexually propositioning your recruiter, I'm told.

Don't grope a recruiter at a firm-wide event (someone in my summer class did this).

Don't say anything that is even vaguely racist or sexist. Just avoid making any comments that could be perceived as offensive based on an immutable characteristic. This should be easy, but I've heard stories...

Don't ask a partner how much their home costs (I witnessed this, although that summer still got an offer).

People will give you a pass for general awkwardness. This is Biglaw after all, if firms no offered awkward people just for being awkward the V5 would cease to exist.

Don’t proposition a wife of a partner (wife of counsel or associate is okay, though).

Anything #metoo related will elicit a no-offer for certain. Otherwise, just avoid talking about politics, religion, swearing too much or generalizing about people in any way. It's pretty easy to get an offer.

Similar question, what will elicit a cold offer? I feel like that is much more likely than doing something so egregious you get a straight no-offer.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:15 am

Similar question, what will elicit a cold offer? I feel like that is much more likely than doing something so egregious you get a straight no-offer.

This is a harder question to answer and varies much more from firm to firm. I've seen cold offers for things like berating wait staff at summer events/dinners and effectively refusing to do even a little bit of substantive work ("Can I get this three-hour assignment to you next week? I have summer events today, tomorrow, Thursday, then I'm going away for a long weekend Friday.").

Basically, try to be as socially normal as you can be, be polite to everyone, be enthusiastic about work assignments and actually try on them (but no need to kill yourself and bill 60 hour weeks), and attend at least some social events.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:15 am

Similar question, what will elicit a cold offer? I feel like that is much more likely than doing something so egregious you get a straight no-offer.

Don't walk out of meetings (yes, multiple) that you've been included in to answer calls from your dog walker. Or, at least lie and say it was your ill mother or something.

To confirm, stilted conversation full of awkward pauses (with partners) is probably not no-offer territory?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:52 am

To confirm, stilted conversation full of awkward pauses (with partners) is probably not no-offer territory?

We are lawyers. Aren't all of our conversations awkward?

Don't get intoxicated to the point where you can't control yourself.

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Don't do anything in the general #MeToo category.

Be nice to wait staff and non-lawyer staff members. Display some level of enthusiasm for the firm/doing actual work (but no need to kill yourself working hard).

Basically, there's a super low bar here and getting an offer really comes down to not displaying egregious workplace behavior.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:52 am

To confirm, stilted conversation full of awkward pauses (with partners) is probably not no-offer territory?

This describes almost every conversation I had with partners my summer (except for the couple partners I found a natural fit with, i.e. the ones I ended up working with longterm). Also, at my firm at least, many of the events were sponsored by different practice groups, so anyone I met at a tax event, for example, I literally never spoke to again.

Wouldn't waste any energy worrying about this.

SFSpartan wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Please tell us more.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:11 pm

SFSpartan wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Please tell us more.

I am pretty sure that would get you equity partnership at Skadden

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:11 pm

SFSpartan wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Please tell us more.

ATL deleted the story. Just google "Latham Summer Fired".

Realistically, it's pretty hard for a summer to get shitcanned/no offered due to a social faux pas -- you have to do something egregious. I've known of a bunch of summers over the years (at my firm and others) who have been shitcanned and it's always been some variation of:

1) doing terrible work for important people (fly low and work for other associates, don't seek out the head of the group like an asshole)

2) getting handsy with other people (both men and women have gotten in trouble for this)

3) getting wasted and then doing dumb shit (summer trying to get up on the stage at a comedy club, aquagirl, etc.)

4) being completely unable to read the room/having terrible judgment (engaging in inflammatory political activity outside of the firm, taking a vacation during the SA, using your firm email to send cease/demand letters for family members in random minor legal disputes)

I've seen 2 big mistakes lead to no-offers.

(1) Some people think they need to be stand out by looking funny or cool or snarky. That often backfires in ways that you can imagine. Don't try to be funny or cool or snarky. Bland is totally OK. Be polite and don't worry if you're coming across as not the cool summer.

(2) Some people think they need to stand out by saying yes to every single assignment and working crazy hours. This often backfires because the overloaded summer misses deadlines or turns in bad work. Don't take on too much work. Think of it like this. If you turn in 3 assignments during the summer and they're immaculate, you'll have 3 people voting to keep you and none voting to no offer you based on your work. If you turn in 20 assignments during the summer and they're terrible to hum-ho, you'll have zero people vouching for your work and up to 20 voting to no offer you based on your work. It's OK to say you're busy. In fact, ultimately saying you're busy is how you narrow in on work you like and weed out the work you hate.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:11 pm

SFSpartan wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Please tell us more.

ATL deleted the story. Just google "Latham Summer Fired".

Realistically, it's pretty hard for a summer to get shitcanned/no offered due to a social faux pas -- you have to do something egregious. I've known of a bunch of summers over the years (at my firm and others) who have been shitcanned and it's always been some variation of:

1) doing terrible work for important people (fly low and work for other associates, don't seek out the head of the group like an asshole)

2) getting handsy with other people (both men and women have gotten in trouble for this)

3) getting wasted and then doing dumb shit (summer trying to get up on the stage at a comedy club, aquagirl, etc.)

4) being completely unable to read the room/having terrible judgment (engaging in inflammatory political activity outside of the firm, taking a vacation during the SA, using your firm email to send cease/demand letters for family members in random minor legal disputes)

Solid advice. There's really no upside to seeking out the important folks during summer. From what I've seen they often barely remember even mid-level associates who work for them once the assignment is over, let alone summers. If it's learning you're after, from the experience of my social circle, a good senior will usually teach you more than any given partner will.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:11 pm

SFSpartan wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Please tell us more.

ATL deleted the story. Just google "Latham Summer Fired".

Realistically, it's pretty hard for a summer to get shitcanned/no offered due to a social faux pas -- you have to do something egregious. I've known of a bunch of summers over the years (at my firm and others) who have been shitcanned and it's always been some variation of:

1) doing terrible work for important people (fly low and work for other associates, don't seek out the head of the group like an asshole)

2) getting handsy with other people (both men and women have gotten in trouble for this)

3) getting wasted and then doing dumb shit (summer trying to get up on the stage at a comedy club, aquagirl, etc.)

4) being completely unable to read the room/having terrible judgment (engaging in inflammatory political activity outside of the firm, taking a vacation during the SA, using your firm email to send cease/demand letters for family members in random minor legal disputes)

Are the firms monitoring our emails? I know they can, but do they?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:11 pm

SFSpartan wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

Don't throw up on a partner or otherwise display egregious behavior (e.g. the Latham summer a couple years ago that blew off multiple flights to a firm retreat, then showed up with hookers and blow)

Please tell us more.

ATL deleted the story. Just google "Latham Summer Fired".

Realistically, it's pretty hard for a summer to get shitcanned/no offered due to a social faux pas -- you have to do something egregious. I've known of a bunch of summers over the years (at my firm and others) who have been shitcanned and it's always been some variation of:

1) doing terrible work for important people (fly low and work for other associates, don't seek out the head of the group like an asshole)

2) getting handsy with other people (both men and women have gotten in trouble for this)

3) getting wasted and then doing dumb shit (summer trying to get up on the stage at a comedy club, aquagirl, etc.)

4) being completely unable to read the room/having terrible judgment (engaging in inflammatory political activity outside of the firm, taking a vacation during the SA, using your firm email to send cease/demand letters for family members in random minor legal disputes)

Are the firms monitoring our emails? I know they can, but do they?

Almost certainly no. If they're monitoring summer emails, they'd probably be monitoring mine and i'm not fired yet.

In addition to not doing any extreme shit like vomiting on someone or being racially/sexually inappropriate, just don't be negative. There was a summer who kept making fun of law students generally as being awkward and lame. Like fine, people do that here (on TLS) and it's true to some degree, but to continually do it in a shitty way like you're not a law student too is bad judgment. Be positive. Regardless if you're talking to or about wait staff, firm staff, other attorneys, other summers, some shitty person at law school, a professor--whoever. Don't voice negative opinions about any of them because it makes people wonder what else you're going to be negative about. Generally, the old rule stands: if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all.

Be considerate of others and have good manners. Never lash out and always think before you speak. Ask questions, too. The SA program is to help you learn. Focus on learning and building relationships.

This might just be me but do not curse, even a little. It looks bad for "the kid" to be mouthing off. Even if the partners are foul mouthed, you should never be.