Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week) Forum

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TLSReturntoWork

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by TLSReturntoWork » Tue May 11, 2021 5:58 pm

OP here. My V5 says we're going back, so to me 3 days in-person would be a victory.

But, if I knew there are firms saying 100% remote, I would have posted them as models instead.

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blair.waldorf

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by blair.waldorf » Tue May 11, 2021 6:04 pm

I honestly can’t believe any firm would try to go back to the five days a week in the office model. Associates should just refuse to participate in that nonsense.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 11, 2021 6:15 pm

TLSReturntoWork wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:58 pm
OP here. My V5 says we're going back, so to me 3 days in-person would be a victory.

But, if I knew there are firms saying 100% remote, I would have posted them as models instead.
Yea I’m a bit curious about people seeing this as a tragedy. A permanent 2 days remote is an improvement on what we had before....

It’s like complaining you only won the $500k prize when the grand prize was $1M.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by bigboybob » Tue May 11, 2021 6:37 pm

I think what people fail to realize is that fully remote or close to, is a way for the V20--and below (or whatever) to compete on the same level as the v10, etc for talent. If a V20 cant necessarily compete financially, it sure as $hit can compete with a WFH option which will likely still attract talent away from these top firms. If this happens, then v10 will have to offer something similar. At a certain point, money doesnt matter and you just want the comfort of WFH. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by jotarokujo » Tue May 11, 2021 6:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:15 pm
TLSReturntoWork wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:58 pm
OP here. My V5 says we're going back, so to me 3 days in-person would be a victory.

But, if I knew there are firms saying 100% remote, I would have posted them as models instead.
Yea I’m a bit curious about people seeing this as a tragedy. A permanent 2 days remote is an improvement on what we had before....

It’s like complaining you only won the $500k prize when the grand prize was $1M.
because people were expecting the grand prize of 1M. it's about what will happen vs expectation of what will happen, not what will happen vs the past

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 11, 2021 7:52 pm

I am somewhat well regarded and busy at my PEP25 firm (not mentioned in this thread) and used the strong competition for mid/senior corporate associates to push for full time WFH in another state. All signs point to yes -- other firms were offering large signing bonuses but this is my best case scenario. Still crushed but that's life.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 11, 2021 8:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:52 pm
I am somewhat well regarded and busy at my PEP25 firm (not mentioned in this thread) and used the strong competition for mid/senior corporate associates to push for full time WFH in another state. All signs point to yes -- other firms were offering large signing bonuses but this is my best case scenario. Still crushed but that's life.
I thought everyone really missed their colleagues at the height of the pandemic. Singing to a different tune now it seems...

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 11, 2021 8:34 pm

jotarokujo wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:15 pm
TLSReturntoWork wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:58 pm
OP here. My V5 says we're going back, so to me 3 days in-person would be a victory.

But, if I knew there are firms saying 100% remote, I would have posted them as models instead.
Yea I’m a bit curious about people seeing this as a tragedy. A permanent 2 days remote is an improvement on what we had before....

It’s like complaining you only won the $500k prize when the grand prize was $1M.
because people were expecting the grand prize of 1M. it's about what will happen vs expectation of what will happen, not what will happen vs the past
But did people really expect firms to go full remote permanently? I’d tell a person complaining about not winning the lottery a moron, and probably same for someone who thought big law firms would actually go full remote. Most businesses outside big law haven’t even gone full remote.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2021 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:51 pm
My firm is expecting everyone to be back in the office starting June 15. People are not enthused
Update: after a minor revolt among the associates, they walked this back hardcore

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by ExpOriental » Wed May 12, 2021 10:01 am

bigboybob wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:37 pm
I think what people fail to realize is that fully remote or close to, is a way for the V20--and below (or whatever) to compete on the same level as the v10, etc for talent. If a V20 cant necessarily compete financially, it sure as $hit can compete with a WFH option which will likely still attract talent away from these top firms. If this happens, then v10 will have to offer something similar. At a certain point, money doesnt matter and you just want the comfort of WFH. Just my 2 cents.
Where are you getting the notion that they can't compete financially? No v10 firm meaningfully varies from market pay besides Wachtell. And no, getting a relatively marginal bump at Kirkland for billing 3000 hours doesn't count. You're talking as if the v10 has broken away from the pack on comp, when 1. it hasn't, and 2. there's no indication that it's going to.

Which also ignores that Vault rankings are a dumb lens to view this through anyways; it's not like Cooley, Fenwick, WSGR et al wouldn't match if DPW or whoever raises comp.

Any firm that tries to go back to 100% facetime is going to get fucked, regardless of comp (obviously excluding Wachtell, which is never really a part of these conversations). The cat is well and truly out of the bag at this point, and I don't see any firm actually sticking with that plan.

I also think fully remote positions are a dicey proposition. Anyone taking one should be prepared for treatment as a second class citizen who will be the first to go in the event of a downturn, or even just to be replaced by someone who is coming into the office.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2021 10:10 am

bigboybob wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:37 pm
I think what people fail to realize is that fully remote or close to, is a way for the V20--and below (or whatever) to compete on the same level as the v10, etc for talent. If a V20 cant necessarily compete financially, it sure as $hit can compete with a WFH option which will likely still attract talent away from these top firms. If this happens, then v10 will have to offer something similar. At a certain point, money doesnt matter and you just want the comfort of WFH. Just my 2 cents.
In-house will be competing for associates by using WFH as a perk as well. I'm in-house and my boss saw no problem with me working fully remote for at least the next couple years, since we've all be productive working from home the last year anyways and this way we can reduce our office footprint going forward, so win-win. That's how we've onboarded new hires and I'm sure that's something we'd offer anyone we hire into legal going forward.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Excellent117 » Wed May 12, 2021 12:03 pm

If my firm's formal WFH policy (expected within the next few weeks) doesn't provide sufficient flexibility for associates (4+ days/week of WFH minimum), my resume is going out that same day.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm

Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by whats an updog » Wed May 12, 2021 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
If anyone needs any more proof that WFH is a positive, please see above. You're free to escape the seniors!

I am a midlevel and mostly joking but also very glad that the pesky supervisor can't stop by my office to try and get me to prioritize their stuff over the mountains of other stuff I have to do. Obviously, here is a line between that and people junior to you not responding for days.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Excellent117 » Wed May 12, 2021 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
Are you still doing hand markups? I have to imagine that's the case, because going through an electronic markup with a junior using screen sharing on Zoom/Teams is infinitely easier than doing so in person.

I've noticed basically no difference in junior responsiveness, and we're always in contact using the firm's internal messaging system anyway.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by blair.waldorf » Wed May 12, 2021 4:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
Well, these juniors are dumb. If anything, I'm extra extra responsive during WFH, because I want to prove I can WFH effectively and don't need to be supervised.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2021 4:02 pm

Excellent117 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:46 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
Are you still doing hand markups? I have to imagine that's the case, because going through an electronic markup with a junior using screen sharing on Zoom/Teams is infinitely easier than doing so in person.

I've noticed basically no difference in junior responsiveness, and we're always in contact using the firm's internal messaging system anyway.
No, for ease of getting stuff around I've been doing track changes since we've been WFH. Just not a fan of zoom/teams -- also makes calls, etc., just a little less organic, being able to sidebar on mute, etc., was helpful to me.

I'm not a big IM person--probably because my mentors when I started as a junior didn't use it and it just never was a thing for me. Totally get that juniors like it and use it.

For a lot of juniors and midlevels, the communication transition isn't really an issue, I guess it's just kind of exposed less-responsive people a bit more and with all the work going on, you can't really be as choosy for who's on your team (and your favorite juniors become midlevels and start running their own deals anyway after a few years so you don't want to be overhang and shadow their growth), just have to grab whoever has capacity at a given moment.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 pm

blair.waldorf wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
Well, these juniors are dumb. If anything, I'm extra extra responsive during WFH, because I want to prove I can WFH effectively and don't need to be supervised.
Are there really that many juniors who don't reply for days on end to emails from senior associates? If so, glad that I'm already in a better position than those guys by just being responsive lol

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by TLSReturntoWork » Wed May 12, 2021 7:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
This is bullshit.

I'm a junior. If a senior tells me to do something, I do it. No if, ands, or buts. You letting a junior blow you off is a YOU problem, not a junior-wide problem. We should not be forced to come into the office any more than other associates, which is an idea that I've seen a lot in other threads, because some of you suck at flexing your seniority.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 12, 2021 11:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
This is the kind of attitude that I expect people more senior than me will have, and I really disagree with it.

If people ghost you for hours... then talk to them about it.

Screen sharing is one of the easiest things you can do on Zoom.

Why wait 2 days to call someone if the assignment is time sensitive? And if it isn't, just follow up with them and make sure it's on their radar.

Generally speaking, if you are managing people and you don't think they are communicating effectively with you, your response should not be to sulk about it and worry about being rude if you called them - your response should be to discuss that issue with them. This is all too common in this industry where people get into management roles by being senior at practicing law - but with zero management skills or training.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 13, 2021 9:08 am

I am senior and have not experienced anything different from juniors during WFH. I also don’t micro manage teams and feel the need to walk them through markups. If they miss the point of a document or just really miss the mark, I’ll call them if it will be helpful for them to understand for the next time. But I also realize that if they miss, it’s because I didn’t explain what the task was clearly enough at the start...

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by nixy » Thu May 13, 2021 11:03 am

I get that there are a lot of people who think all phone calls are rude/intrusive, but in a work context, it’s not remotely rude to phone someone who hasn’t responded to an email. If they hate phone calls that much, they’ll figure out to respond to the email in the first place to head off the call. And if there’s some reason they really haven’t been able to get to the email, you’ll find out sooner. So I don’t think WFH creates communication problems, I think some people have to learn to communicate differently.

I agree that part of the problem is hiring people for ability (or at least hypothetical ability) to be lawyers, not managers, and then expecting them to manage people, when the only training they get is seeing other people do it (who haven’t really been trained either and often do it badly).

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by sms18 » Thu May 13, 2021 11:28 am

TLSReturntoWork wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
This is bullshit.

I'm a junior. If a senior tells me to do something, I do it. No if, ands, or buts. You letting a junior blow you off is a YOU problem, not a junior-wide problem. We should not be forced to come into the office any more than other associates, which is an idea that I've seen a lot in other threads, because some of you suck at flexing your seniority.
LOL @butthurt junior. Not every junior associate is a trooper like you, buddy.

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Re: Think Ropes & Gray earned its own thread (3 day work week)

Post by whats an updog » Thu May 13, 2021 1:13 pm

sms18 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 11:28 am
TLSReturntoWork wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Is it mostly midlevels chiming in here happy with WFH? As someone more senior, WFH has been an extremely mixed bag in terms of junior accessibility (people ghosting for hours) and walking through markups, etc., is just more awkward via phone (don't get me started on zoom).

100% love the extra time due to a lack of a commute but it's made managing people a chore. Good midlevels I don't worry about but feels like I'm sending more emails to chase juniors on minor stuff because they're not in office, and calling people's cellphones after they don't respond to an email for 2 days still seems rude.

Maybe it's because I was always pretty lax about leaving whenever work was done (I personally liked to leave at ~5) and having the same attitude for my team -- if markups, etc., are out by 3 or 4 pm, there is no reason to stay -- but WFH seems to have contributed to a lot of communication issues.
This is bullshit.

I'm a junior. If a senior tells me to do something, I do it. No if, ands, or buts. You letting a junior blow you off is a YOU problem, not a junior-wide problem. We should not be forced to come into the office any more than other associates, which is an idea that I've seen a lot in other threads, because some of you suck at flexing your seniority.
LOL @butthurt junior. Not every junior associate is a trooper like you, buddy.
Sure but that doesn't mean some boomeresque senior's desire to "organically" meet up because they can't figure out how to zoom should rule the day

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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