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Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Based on my own personal experience and from what I'm reading on these threads, it seems like first years are having a particularly miserable time right now. I am certainly looking to get out as soon as I hit my one-year mark - my mental and physical health just cannot take it. I know of one v10 where three first years have already left, and I've heard rumors about other firms in which first years have left.
I think it's a combination of firms being understaffed (especially transactional), first-years being expected to do work beyond their level with shit training, poor remote-start integration, and even more blurred work-life boundaries. Also maybe class of 2020 is just disillusioned at this point, given delayed starts, the bar exam mess in several states, general lack of communication, etc.
Looking to see if this is really a trend across firms. Do you think Class of 2020 will end up being some sort of lost generation?
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:10 pm
by Anonymous User
First year in finance here. I’ll speak to morale a bit. I personally love my group at my firm and while I’ve been busy, the hours are reasonable (log off most nights between 7-9 and never later than midnight so far, and I have very limited work (like sub 4 hours) most weekends). I also love working from home.
However, morale is extremely low among the first years in other groups. People are furious that we were deferred with only an advance, and the firm has done nothing to address the struggles first years have faced with the deferral, starting remotely, Covid, etc. The firm’s communication with first years regarding start date, whether hours required to make bonus will be prorated since we didn’t start until the last week of January, etc. has been extremely poor. Basically everyone started in a bad mood, disillusioned about the firm.
Personally, I feel like I have it really good for biglaw (knock on wood), so I have moved on from my annoyance at firm management, but the other first years have not. I wouldn’t be shocked if people start leaving.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:31 pm
by Itcamefromthesea
I think 2020 grads will be ok. BigLaw needs c/o 2020 just as much as every other class, and maybe moreso with the seeming uptick in work. Having to handle work and clients that you might not otherwise touch as a 1st year is a big advantage long term (if you don’t burn out). The level of misery will drop eventually either from decreased work or increased hiring. I definitely agree it is a bad situation for first years that are already on the way to being burnt out that might have made it otherwise. I know it is bleak, but they can just replace anyone who burns out with another fresh grad so long as the work is there, so c/o 2020 will be represented one way or another.
The silver lining is it is not like 2008 where the market dried up. There are decent jobs out there if v10 life stays intolerable. In the short term it was a terrible time to graduate, but I do think your career will be ok.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:35 pm
by Anonymous User
Itcamefromthesea wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:31 pm
Having to handle work and clients that you might not otherwise touch as a 1st year is a big advantage long term (if you don’t burn out).
Too late, sadly.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:39 pm
by jotarokujo
class of 2021 probably got luckier than 2020 on balance. when they start in the fall, it will likely be partially in person, though they had like 1.5 yrs of online law school which in some ways is worse than online biglaw.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:58 pm
by blair.waldorf
jotarokujo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:39 pm
class of 2021 probably got luckier than 2020 on balance. when they start in the fall, it will likely be partially in person, though they had like 1.5 yrs of online law school which in some ways is worse than online biglaw.
Remote biglaw is amazing. Remote school sucks.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:03 pm
by Anonymous User
blair.waldorf wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:58 pm
jotarokujo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:39 pm
class of 2021 probably got luckier than 2020 on balance. when they start in the fall, it will likely be partially in person, though they had like 1.5 yrs of online law school which in some ways is worse than online biglaw.
Remote biglaw is amazing. Remote school sucks.
I generally agree that remote big law has a lot of advantages. I just think starting remotely for first years has been a giant mess at some firms.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:06 pm
by Anonymous User
Deferral to January with advance and no stipend was terrible, especially when my firm and others that did so killed it financially. They should forgive the advances. Compared with KE or LW or a bunch of other firms, I lost out on 3 months and like $40k
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:56 pm
by Anonymous User
I like the idea of remote and it does help on nights I’m working until 1am to be able to at least do it from my couch but I feel like we have gotten totally screwed in some ways. I feel like I’ve gotten no training (not to say that the training is normally perfect in a typical environment) and just generally have no clue what on earth is going on. I feel like so much of what I’m doing is beyond my class year/the fact that I just started in January. I am so miserable. I never thought this would make my mental health so bad. I keep randomly bursting into tears. Feel nauseous all the time from my stress. Today my whole body was just like...shaking??? because I took some time to have a meal with my husband for Easter and thought I might miss an email or that there is something I should be doing but don’t know what it is since again, I have no clue what is going on. I genuinely never could have imagined feeling like this. I don’t know how to survive the next 9 months until I hit the year mark. I feel completely weak and like a failure for this impacting me so much. If anyone has any advice I’m desperate.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:07 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:56 pm
I like the idea of remote and it does help on nights I’m working until 1am to be able to at least do it from my couch but I feel like we have gotten totally screwed in some ways. I feel like I’ve gotten no training (not to say that the training is normally perfect in a typical environment) and just generally have no clue what on earth is going on. I feel like so much of what I’m doing is beyond my class year/the fact that I just started in January. I am so miserable. I never thought this would make my mental health so bad. I keep randomly bursting into tears. Feel nauseous all the time from my stress. Today my whole body was just like...shaking??? because I took some time to have a meal with my husband for Easter and thought I might miss an email or that there is something I should be doing but don’t know what it is since again, I have no clue what is going on. I genuinely never could have imagined feeling like this. I don’t know how to survive the next 9 months until I hit the year mark. I feel completely weak and like a failure for this impacting me so much. If anyone has any advice I’m desperate.
OP here, and this is 100% how I feel. I have cried so many times since starting this job. The expectations are incredibly unclear, and I have no idea what I'm responsible for half the time. I know I'll get blamed if something falls through, yet I'm only looped in bits and pieces of the deal. I used to feel weak and like a failure, but after talking to others, I've realized it's not me. It's not you. It's a messed up environment.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:21 pm
by Anonymous User
Too early to say for sure, but if the economy doesn't dip, the 2019s and 2020s who stick around at least a couple years will probably be showered with retention bonuses/increased comp after that to keep them around through their midlevel years. I think there will be an unusually high number of them departing as juniors, and midlevels are crucial to today's biglaw shops. The all-in comp that we see in 2021 might not keep up in 2022, but I expect something like it to be what we see in 2023/2024 (whether that be through stagnant salary/year-end bonuses + special, or some other way) for this reason
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:37 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:56 pm
I like the idea of remote and it does help on nights I’m working until 1am to be able to at least do it from my couch but I feel like we have gotten totally screwed in some ways. I feel like I’ve gotten no training (not to say that the training is normally perfect in a typical environment) and just generally have no clue what on earth is going on. I feel like so much of what I’m doing is beyond my class year/the fact that I just started in January. I am so miserable. I never thought this would make my mental health so bad. I keep randomly bursting into tears. Feel nauseous all the time from my stress. Today my whole body was just like...shaking??? because I took some time to have a meal with my husband for Easter and thought I might miss an email or that there is something I should be doing but don’t know what it is since again, I have no clue what is going on. I genuinely never could have imagined feeling like this. I don’t know how to survive the next 9 months until I hit the year mark. I feel completely weak and like a failure for this impacting me so much. If anyone has any advice I’m desperate.
OP here, and this is 100% how I feel. I have cried so many times since starting this job. The expectations are incredibly unclear, and I have no idea what I'm responsible for half the time. I know I'll get blamed if something falls through, yet I'm only looped in bits and pieces of the deal. I used to feel weak and like a failure, but after talking to others, I've realized it's not me. It's not you. It's a messed up environment.
It's validating to see others feeling the same things, but also sucks so many of us are going through this. One thing I think has made this especially difficult (and I think is easy for more senior attorneys to overlook) is the lack of informal interaction. I think formal trainings are probably about as useful/useless remote as they are in-person, but we're missing out on many ways that actual learning often happens: we can't drop by someone's office to ask a quick question (or several), nor can we sit in a partner's or senior associate's office during a call so they can mute and explain to you what's going on as the call is happening.
This is something that I think seems small and perhaps insignificant to more senior attorneys who are enjoying the benefits of WFH, but has left me and other first years feeling absolutely lost much of the time. I get an email telling me to do something, and then I try to figure out how to do it on my own. If I don't understand, I feel stupid and resort to Google to figure it out on my own so I don't look stupid. If that's taking too long or I've sufficiently convinced myself I am, in fact, stupid, then I'll try to call another associate or the partner to ask questions — this helps but it always feels like I'm bothering them, which I probably am because they're insanely busy too.
Oh yeah, and the lack of informal interaction also leaves me feeling subhuman. I don't need to be social with my coworkers, but the grind of big law just sucks that much more when all of my interactions with people throughout the day entail being told to do something and responding "Will do!" I think it just really crystallizes the idea that I am nothing more than a machine churning out hours. Not a very fun way to exist.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:11 pm
by Buglaw
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:56 pm
I like the idea of remote and it does help on nights I’m working until 1am to be able to at least do it from my couch but I feel like we have gotten totally screwed in some ways. I feel like I’ve gotten no training (not to say that the training is normally perfect in a typical environment) and just generally have no clue what on earth is going on. I feel like so much of what I’m doing is beyond my class year/the fact that I just started in January. I am so miserable. I never thought this would make my mental health so bad. I keep randomly bursting into tears. Feel nauseous all the time from my stress. Today my whole body was just like...shaking??? because I took some time to have a meal with my husband for Easter and thought I might miss an email or that there is something I should be doing but don’t know what it is since again, I have no clue what is going on. I genuinely never could have imagined feeling like this. I don’t know how to survive the next 9 months until I hit the year mark. I feel completely weak and like a failure for this impacting me so much. If anyone has any advice I’m desperate.
OP here, and this is 100% how I feel. I have cried so many times since starting this job. The expectations are incredibly unclear, and I have no idea what I'm responsible for half the time. I know I'll get blamed if something falls through, yet I'm only looped in bits and pieces of the deal. I used to feel weak and like a failure, but after talking to others, I've realized it's not me. It's not you. It's a messed up environment.
This is just big law. The remote on boarding might have made things a bit tougher, but this was 95% my experience (and my partners and most other people I talk to). No first ywar has any idea what's going on and it's an alternation between ridiculously simple tasks (make sure all 95 subsidiaries from this schedule are on that schedule) and insanely difficult tasks (take a look at this precedent and incorporate the items we need, when you have never seen this document before, have no idea what is needed and don't really know what it means to incorporate items). You'll also fuck up signature pages a few times and people will blame you and ask you why you didn't get someone to sign some document and you'll panick and think you may have blown the deal.
The not knowing what is going on will get better towards the end of this year, and much better by years 3-4. But, it will get much worse in other ways. The job is very difficult and this is why everyone says it sucks. Do your best to calm down and realize that dissapointing a bunch of big law sociopathic partners and partner wannabes is not a big deal.
This is all obviously from a transactional perspective. I know nothing about litigation.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:16 pm
by jotarokujo
first years are expected to do things incorrectly. that's how you learn. (reasonable) seniors understand you don't know how to do anything, so your assignments that you don't know how to do are more for your education than for your actual product
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:51 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
I grant that it sucks to have been deferred for three months and not have proper integration and be buried in work. I'm not here to minimize your bad time. But, Lost Generation? Do you people have any fucking idea what happened to c/o 2008-2011? Fired, deferred into oblivion, no-offered en masse, and never hired, respectively. The whole impetus for the bonus raise in 2014 was that all of those classes were completely gone. That's the real lost generation. You are the total opposite of that--there are an absolute shitload of you. Hiring was at an absolute peak and no-offers have nearly gone extinct. It's an order of magnitude better than the alternative. Throw in two other major advantages: First, working remotely for however long you'll be able to do is a gigantic improvement and you may not have any idea how much shittier it is going in five days a week. And second, comp is not at inflation-adjusted levels of 2007 but it's higher than it's ever been since then. Retention bonuses are the plus side of being a hot commodity.
By and large, first-years will not be going anywhere unless they ragequit (and if you really can find a landing spot out of Biglaw at the one-year mark, I will applaud you, but most of you will not be able to do that) and if they somehow do, well, that was the point of hiring a shitload. Aggregate deal volume is not always going to be like this, I can promise you that. I can't tell you if the bubble is going to pop five years from now (or whatever is too far away for you to care) or tomorrow (if I could, I would be picking stocks rather than redlining PPMs). If it's soon and serious, you will be first on the chopping block and you can read some old stories about Latham's conference rooms to see how bad that can get (most of those people never worked in Biglaw again).
And this is a tangential point--I understand everyone is slammed, but if you feel stupid, belittled, overly stressed, anxious and you cry a lot about work, you are like most Biglaw associates in recent memory. And before you ask, no, it does not get better. You'll learn a lot, gain more trust and move past bitch work, and that will be replaced with oodles more responsibility. It will suck until the day you give notice. Welcome to the profession. So pick an amount of cash to stack (or maybe just an amount of debt to pay off), grind to that number, actually stick to that number, and get the fuck out ASAP.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:08 pm
by marmot8
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:51 pm
I grant that it sucks to have been deferred for three months and not have proper integration and be buried in work. I'm not here to minimize your bad time. But, Lost Generation? Do you people have any fucking idea what happened to c/o 2008-2011? Fired, deferred into oblivion, no-offered en masse, and never hired, respectively. The whole impetus for the bonus raise in 2014 was that all of those classes were completely gone. That's the real lost generation. You are the total opposite of that--there are an absolute shitload of you. Hiring was at an absolute peak and no-offers have nearly gone extinct. It's an order of magnitude better than the alternative. Throw in two other major advantages: First, working remotely for however long you'll be able to do is a gigantic improvement and you may not have any idea how much shittier it is going in five days a week. And second, comp is not at inflation-adjusted levels of 2007 but it's higher than it's ever been since then. Retention bonuses are the plus side of being a hot commodity.
By and large, first-years will not be going anywhere unless they ragequit (and if you really can find a landing spot out of Biglaw at the one-year mark, I will applaud you, but most of you will not be able to do that) and if they somehow do, well, that was the point of hiring a shitload. Aggregate deal volume is not always going to be like this, I can promise you that. I can't tell you if the bubble is going to pop five years from now (or whatever is too far away for you to care) or tomorrow (if I could, I would be picking stocks rather than redlining PPMs). If it's soon and serious, you will be first on the chopping block and you can read some old stories about Latham's conference rooms to see how bad that can get (most of those people never worked in Biglaw again).
And this is a tangential point--I understand everyone is slammed, but if you feel stupid, belittled, overly stressed, anxious and you cry a lot about work, you are like most Biglaw associates in recent memory. And before you ask, no, it does not get better. You'll learn a lot, gain more trust and move past bitch work, and that will be replaced with oodles more responsibility. It will suck until the day you give notice. Welcome to the profession. So pick an amount of cash to stack (or maybe just an amount of debt to pay off), grind to that number, actually stick to that number, and get the fuck out ASAP.
So well said. The job is the job, and you guys happen to be starting from home. That’s about it.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:08 pm
by Anonymous User
Lol at lost generation comment.
At firm I'm at first years have made comments like this to me. Look, big law is terrible. I've heard comments like "man work from home really is making hours unpredictable, I worked until 11pm last Thursday and I had no idea what I was doing!". As others are commenting, this is just the industry. Work from home is presenting new challenges, and while I'm not going through this as a first year, overall my life has improved and I can see some distinct benefits for first years (although there are drawbacks). First years have let to learn the pain of being in the office until 2am and commuting home for 3 hours of sleep before commuting back in.
Big law has never had great training (particularly at the 'top' of the V100) and it has always kind of been a sink or swim model. A return to 'normal' may find first year associates begging for the days of pure remote. There is a reason that a common request of laterals over the past six months has been an agreement that they can be pure remote forever.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:08 pm
Lol at lost generation comment.
At firm I'm at first years have made comments like this to me. Look, big law is terrible. I've heard comments like "man work from home really is making hours unpredictable, I worked until 11pm last Thursday and I had no idea what I was doing!". As others are commenting, this is just the industry. Work from home is presenting new challenges, and while I'm not going through this as a first year, overall my life has improved and I can see some distinct benefits for first years (although there are drawbacks). First years have let to learn the pain of being in the office until 2am and commuting home for 3 hours of sleep before commuting back in.
Big law has never had great training (particularly at the 'top' of the V100) and it has always kind of been a sink or swim model. A return to 'normal' may find first year associates begging for the days of pure remote. There is a reason that a common request of laterals over the past six months has been an agreement that they can be pure remote forever.
OP here. I do appreciate everyone's perspective. I made the lost generation comment because of actually hearing about first years quitting already, which seemed abnormal to me. I had thought people usually stick it out at least two years.
But thank you for confirming that this is just the job all the time. In that case, it's not for me.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:38 pm
by Anonymous User
Lol at first years asking for the office - you have no idea what you are in for. Don’t forget to pack a pillow, blanket and snacks...
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:15 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:38 pm
Lol at first years asking for the office - you have no idea what you are in for. Don’t forget to pack a pillow, blanket and snacks...
I'm not sure any of us as asking to be in the office?
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:23 am
by nixy
I could sort of see how WFH/lack of integration/the global circumstances could make it a little easier for first years to quit quickly than in previous years - I would imagine that doing everything remotely means there's even less of the kind of emotional connection with anyone at the firm that could carry you along a little longer. But I feel like lots of people over the years have posted anecdotes about the people in their firms who peaced out at 30/60/90 days, it just doesn't really add up/become real until you're in that situation.
(Also, saying that WFH makes it tougher to be a first year doesn't mean first years want to go back into the office. I would imagine the point is that WFH highlights underlying problems.)
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:07 am
by Anonymous User
nixy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:23 am
(Also, saying that WFH makes it tougher to be a first year doesn't mean first years want to go back into the office. I would imagine the point is that WFH highlights underlying problems.)
Exactly - thank you. I am not advocating for going back in. Just trying to point out that to the extent big law normally sucks for first years (unclear directions, not knowing what you're doing), it sucks even worse the way that WFH was rolled out at a lot of firms combined with the transactional boom.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:47 am
by Anonymous User
But you can’t have it both ways. Sure could we get better at WFH, yes. But when you start saying things like it’s harder bc of WFH, the default from the powers that be is going to be to get rid of WFH.
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:14 pm
by Prudent_Jurist
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:38 pm
Lol at first years asking for the office - you have no idea what you are in for. Don’t forget to pack a pillow, blanket and snacks...
Can I pack my PJs, too? I'm always down for a sleepover!
Re: Class of 2020 - Lost Generation of Big Law?
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:39 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:47 am
But you can’t have it both ways. Sure could we get better at WFH, yes. But when you start saying things like it’s harder bc of WFH, the default from the powers that be is going to be to get rid of WFH.
Right...so overall we're just in a shit situation.