Always be padding? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a fourth year associate. I am in corporate. I have worked with quite a few different partners, midlevels, and senior associates by now. I admit I'm not the most experienced deal attorney out there, and I've always tried not to be insecure or judgemental in this job, and mostly I keep my head down, mind my own business, try to do a good job, and basically be a good person to work with.

The last... 18 months or so I just can't help but suspect that I've been a fool all this time regarding my hours. I try pretty hard to be accurate with my billing. Fractions of an hour, not blocking when I can avoid it, just doing what the what the rules say you should do. But in the last few deals I've been reviewing time sheets. I can see that people are inflating their hours. At first I thought that there must be work I'm not seeing, so it all makes sense, I just don't get the whole picture. But I've been seeing entries for a while now for workstreams that I know very well, and it's obvious that some people are making entries that inflate their time.

Now I'm thinking, maybe, of course this is how it works. These are big deals, legal costs aren't that much in the grand scheme, so the client isn't complaining. What do the partners care? You're just inflating their profits. Maybe they prefer if you pad billing, in fact! You get to say you spent three hours on something when you spend an hour on it, then you can watch TV with your spouse or whatever. Meanwhile dummies like me don't realize that they've been playing the game wrong the whole time.

I'm upset at the moment because I worked for hours on a markup, sent it to the senior to review, and the senior sent it 15 minutes later, unedited, to the partner, and now I see that the senior is billing hours to that markup too. They didn't do almost anything at all.

Am I totally off base? Is this just how the game is played?

[Anonymous User]

V10 associate here. This is the easiest way to survive BIGLAW for an extended period. And yes, it's very common.

[cheaptilts]

I don’t believe this was common at any place I’ve worked at. I would not advise you to pad your billables. It’s unethical, and putting ethics issues aside, it’s not worth the risk of getting caught.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in a "biglaw" firm in a secondary market and have generally followed your approach, but same as you found people block billing big time entries, inflating hours, etc. I personally cannot bring myself to bill more than what I did. Very rarely do I value bill for something but usually I stop timer for breaks longer than 10 minutes and I tend to round up some entries (which i feel is warranted bc i generally don't start my timer until i actually start typing (i.e., don't capture the time it takes to find my precedent, etc.)). I have noticed other associates in m&a who bill the shit out of things; one of those associates is well known to do that among my partners and they are consistently writing his time off; it's known that if you want to hit six figures on a bill in the first month, you just staff this associate -- but it's not a good thing -- they don't like it and they don't like that the associate is gaming it either. It will def. become an issue as he continues to advance.

[legalpotato]

I don’t believe this was common at any place I’ve worked at. I would not advise you to pad your billables. It’s unethical, and putting ethics issues aside, it’s not worth the risk of getting caught.

Extreme anecdote: there was an associate at my v10 who was famously terrible. He/She got caught padding an insane amount (think like 1000 on a matter over the course of a year). Client was pissed. We had to do a mea culpa and take the associate off the matter, but associate got to stick around for another year while he/she found a new place to go (with the bonus that he/she didn't have to work much during that year). Associate is now at v20 (and I've actually heard someone brag about this lateral as legitimizing this v20's presence in a secondary market (the v20 is new there) which was kind of funny).

Will also say there were a few mitigating factors that applied to this associate which may not apply to most associates, so not sure most would get this same light treatment. Also would never do this myself and don't really need to because when you are already averaging over 200/hrs per month legitimately, there is really no need to fraud.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

https://www.law360.com/articles/1368800 ... at-ex-firm

[Sackboy]

Aggressively rounding up the next 0.1 is OK in my book, because there is going to be some point where you don't start your timer to read a random email or you are thinking about the matter while away from your computer or something like that. Anything beyond that is unethical.

[4LTsPointingNorth]

Sure, it's infuriating if you know someone only spent an hour reviewing your draft before sending it to a partner and you see on their time sheet for that day that they billed 3 hours to "Review mark-up of transaction agreement".

Keep in mind though that the person could have actually spent three hours on billable work for that matter. It's entirely possible they just couldn't be bothered to write out, "Phone call with tax specialist re: X; Conference call re: Y; Review mark-up of transaction agreement; Draft ancillary signing deliverable; Attention to emails re: deal structure."

Don't start padding your time based on assumptions you make from reviewing people's time narratives. (Don't start padding your time at all).

[Anonymous User]

Padding seems like a recipe for disaster. I will bill time where I am thinking about a matter though, whether it’s on the subway, in shower, trying to go to bed etc. if it’s at all productive. This happens more than I’d like to admit and it’s how I stay sane. 0.2 on motion to dismiss strategy from this morning’s shower, 0.2 on how to resolve that discovery dispute while I walked to Starbucks.

[unlicensedpotato]

Padding seems like a recipe for disaster. I will bill time where I am thinking about a matter though, whether it’s on the subway, in shower, trying to go to bed etc. if it’s at all productive. This happens more than I’d like to admit and it’s how I stay sane. 0.2 on motion to dismiss strategy from this morning’s shower, 0.2 on how to resolve that discovery dispute while I walked to Starbucks.

This is what I do. I don't pad but I try to capture all time spent on a given matter. Lots of people shortchange themselves.

[sparty99]

I am a fourth year associate. I am in corporate. I have worked with quite a few different partners, midlevels, and senior associates by now. I admit I'm not the most experienced deal attorney out there, and I've always tried not to be insecure or judgemental in this job, and mostly I keep my head down, mind my own business, try to do a good job, and basically be a good person to work with.

The last... 18 months or so I just can't help but suspect that I've been a fool all this time regarding my hours. I try pretty hard to be accurate with my billing. Fractions of an hour, not blocking when I can avoid it, just doing what the what the rules say you should do. But in the last few deals I've been reviewing time sheets. I can see that people are inflating their hours. At first I thought that there must be work I'm not seeing, so it all makes sense, I just don't get the whole picture. But I've been seeing entries for a while now for workstreams that I know very well, and it's obvious that some people are making entries that inflate their time.

Now I'm thinking, maybe, of course this is how it works. These are big deals, legal costs aren't that much in the grand scheme, so the client isn't complaining. What do the partners care? You're just inflating their profits. Maybe they prefer if you pad billing, in fact! You get to say you spent three hours on something when you spend an hour on it, then you can watch TV with your spouse or whatever. Meanwhile dummies like me don't realize that they've been playing the game wrong the whole time.

I'm upset at the moment because I worked for hours on a markup, sent it to the senior to review, and the senior sent it 15 minutes later, unedited, to the partner, and now I see that the senior is billing hours to that markup too. They didn't do almost anything at all.

Am I totally off base? Is this just how the game is played?

Obviously, being creative and strategic on billing is a requirement but ain't no one trying to be the homegirl from Fargre who clearly padded the bills to make up her 2 week time off for her wedding and honey moon because she knew her hours were low and was on the verge of being sacked.

[Anonymous User]

Unfortunately, this is far more common people think. And those who are saying otherwise just aren't aware of what goes on. Especially at firms where bonus is tied to hours (read: majority of v100) associates are basically monetarily incentivized to pad. We're not talking 1,000 extra hours, a few here and a few there every week which adds up to a couple hundred at the end of the year, just enough to solidify said associate's standing within the group/firm and fetch them a a year-end bonus.

It is really really hard to bill 2,000 hours plus legitimately in biglaw if your group isn't regularly super busy. Outside of a few groups at a few firms (and not including the current work overload that many firms are temporarily experiencing) that are always busy I would venture that most associates in the V100 in a typical year would have trouble breaking 2,000 billables if they were billing honestly.

[notinbiglaw]

I think if you can get work done faster than seniors/partners expect you to, you can pad without any repercussions.

But if you're already slow, padding is bad.

[Anonymous User]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

[Anonymous User]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

I bill 1 and 3. I bill 5 on closing day or day before closing. I bill 4 and other things I wouldn't normally bill when I am particularly pissed off at a client or deal. I was probably thinking about the deal the whole time anyways.

[Anonymous User]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

V10 Lit Mid-Level here:
1) Yes (though I'd probably stop billing if it became absurd--like more than 20 minutes?)
2) No (I generally just bill it all to the call)
3) Yes (but only if I subjectively think I'm still offering value to the case, and if i'm only briefly distracted).
4) Yes, if i'm still even generally thinking about the case.
5) No, though I'd probably figure out a way to bill some of that time (e.g., strategizing, reviewing prior draft/emails)

[Anonymous User]

One way to ethically "pad" (not really padding) has to do with travel, which I suppose is probably more common for litigators. At my firm, we can bill all business travel fully - the firm doesn't necessarily charge it to the client - but we cannot double bill the same minute. So if I'm on a plane for three hours going to a Client A deposition, and I work on a brief for Client B for 90 minutes of the flight, I can only bill 1.5 to A and 1.5 to B. So I've started just not working on flights, unless I would hate myself for how long I'd need to work upon arrival. In the above hypo, I'd watch a movie or just relax for the flight and then do the brief work that evening in the hotel. 3 hours to A and 1.5 to B.

[Anonymous User]

One of my colleagues confided to me that his general rule of billing was that it had to be tethered to reality. Like he wouldn’t pad 20 extra hours a week but he’d add a lot. If something took him and hour or so to do, he’d add like 10 minutes. He billed for mental breaks and for bathroom. While I agree with the sentiment that it’s pretty dystopian to expect people to only perform basic human functions on their own time, but he took it pretty far.

I think he generally padded 5-10 hours a week, depending on how busy he was (easier to add 10 when you actually billed 60 as opposed to 30). It’s such a crazy system because there’s no objective way to know how much time something took, so as long as your billing is within the realm of the reasonable nobody is going to know. Plus all incentives are to pad. Basically only upside and people only get busted if they get too cocky and go overboard.

[Elston Gunn]

Don’t assume the seniors are padding as much as it seems. Personally, when I was busy I would have timers going but I’d often forget to write in the narrative until way later, at which point I’d be guesstimating on what I actually spent that time doing. So I’d bill the right amount of time, but with inconsistently accurate narratives.

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

1. Yes, unless it takes a crazy amount of time.
2. No, just bill to the call.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. No, unless unusual circumstances (like I’m onsite with the client and waiting for new instructions).

[Anonymous User]

If the partner thinks the numbers are reasonable, the client is happy, you do great work and all is swell, why bill super conservatively? Unless you're a super genius that does everything in a fraction of the time, idk... I find it hard to lose sleep over the .1s and etc. that I may or may not have worked.

I know they add up, but some accuracy is inevitably lost when things get hectic and you're doing a dozen plus things for a crazy deal a day anyways. I'm not disputing the ethical argument fwiw, but just don't really care, besides the people that just blatantly make up dozens or hundreds of hours, which is the only way you can really get caught.

[Anonymous User]

Woke up to an early morning email from another time zone asking me a one-off question. It took me under a minute to read and respond before I went back to sleep. Does this warrant a 0.1 entry?

[Anonymous User]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

V20 corp associate

1 - Yes, unless it goes past like 30 minutes.

2 - No, but generally I won't draft while on a call unless I'm in a crazy rush because not being able to double bill only screws me over

3 - Yes

4 - Yes

5 - Yes, if it's past 6pm or if it's the weekend and I'm being forced to wait around the computer whether by the client or the partner.

[Anonymous User]

Woke up to an early morning email from another time zone asking me a one-off question. It took me under a minute to read and respond before I went back to sleep. Does this warrant a 0.1 entry?

Does in my book. But if you only have a couple of those throughout the day I wouldn't add extra 0.1s, I'd just consider them part of the first 0.1

[Sackboy]

Woke up to an early morning email from another time zone asking me a one-off question. It took me under a minute to read and respond before I went back to sleep. Does this warrant a 0.1 entry?

Does in my book. But if you only have a couple of those throughout the day I wouldn't add extra 0.1s, I'd just consider them part of the first 0.1

Yep. Never stack 0.1s. That'd be incredibly unethical.

[Anonymous User]

Whoever said above that they don’t bill for looking up precedents for a document—that’s crazy, you should definitely bill for that. That is the definition of providing legal services, you are using your skill as a corporate lawyer to identify which document is the appropriate one for this use case. Bill away!!

But this got me thinking about other things I bill for that maybe other people don’t, or don’t bill for that other people do. Would you bill for the following (note: not saying I bill for all of the below):

1. Drafting a document but run into a Word (or other) error and it takes you a little bit of time to reboot, etc or you have to call tech support

2. Double billing when you’re listening in on a call but drafting a document for another client at the same time

3. You are thinking about what to draft but not staring aimlessly out the window—like reading an article in the NYTimes or something while also thinking about how to prepare the document.

4. Quick (less than 5 minutes) break to get food or water.

5. Waiting for a client (or opposing counsel) to turn a document that you need to review tonight. Can you bill for the waiting time?

OP on the precedent post - thank you! I don’t know why I never asked someone that. I will be billing and going back to add for the time entries this month that I can add to for this.

Also, interestingly, I absolutely bill both clients on simultaneous calls. But I only work on calls where I’ve been asked to dial in in case there are legal questions (which usually are BOD meetings over conference call) and I would say 25% of those have ever involved someone asking me a question. I obviously stop my timer when im answering the question.