Akin Suicide Forum

[JamezPhoenix]

I specifically stated that I wanted insight and yet still people decided to be trolls. I shudder to think that people actually managed to get into elite schools and jobs while whining about everything. Does playing a victim give you a false sense of empowerment? Also, how did the posters that responded to me get a good LSAT score if they failed so badly at RC?

No one said BL is not stressful. The "Give me attention, I'm a victim" crowd complained about how BL inevitably drives everyone to suicide. They refused to accept any other factors could contribute to someone committing suicide. Maybe read the first or second page of this thread again? I had genuinely wanted what I thought were smart people to defend their view but instead I got trollery...so thanks. Please, do not vote. I am going to hope and pray that the majority of non-logic impaired people agree with me. I thought it was funny when people would blame guns but now people are literally here blaming jobs for killing people that they choose AND REFUSE TO LEAVE.

Jobs do not kill people, people kill people

MrTooToo, I leave the floor to you. I learned a long time that some people are just a lost cause where logic goes to die. You can spend all day teaching algebra to a wall but all that does is waste a day!

(FWIW I don't think anyone actually disagreed with me still...because everyone argued against points I didn't make, but good job attacking a straw man with a red herring!)

You disagreeing with our responses doesn’t make them trolling. I answered you seriously. Monochromatic Oeuvre answered you seriously. Sure, I think one person said you had the empathy of a peanut, but if that’s enough for you to flounce off in a huff, maybe this isn’t a great forum for you.

And absolutely no one here has said that biglaw inevitably drives everyone to suicide - if that’s what you got from the comments in this thread, maybe you’d better not diss other people’s RC skills. The argument people are contesting is that biglaw has nothing to do with someone committing suicide. (If this poor associate even did so.)

The gaslighting and projection is freaking insane...How are the people arguing so awful at reading comprehension. Show me the poster who said "biglaw has nothing to do with someone committing suicide". I am not disagreeing with anyone's responses, I am saying the same thing that you have been saying. BL has a lot of stress, that stress contributes to depression, depression contributes to suicide. At a certain point I have to just throw up my hands and assume that you and others just want to argue and haven't actually read anything that has been said. The point is, BL is not unique compared to the medical field, finance, banking, government, etc. And no one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. The part, if you would indulge me for five seconds and actually READ what the original contention was, that I defended was that if you commit suicide then you have underlying issues. Not that BL didn't make those issues worse, literally no one said that, the part that so many can't seem to understand is that STRESS exacerbates UNDERLYING ISSUES. And I don't know why you keep arguing with me because you have said the exact same thing I have said in every post you have made to me. But you, and EO, and all these anons want to be rude when I simply said people are making individual choices and are dealing with other issues that might be made worse by BL but is not unique to BL.

[JamezPhoenix]

I am aware of a 2020 grad who worked at Akin who passed away last week. I wasn't aware it was a suicide, although I didn't see any news regarding it (so probably wasn't a car accident or something similar). That's incredibly tragic. NO JOB IS WORTH YOUR LIFE. IF IT IS THAT BAD, PLEASE JUST QUIT.

I’ve heard some terrible things out of Akin Rx esp lately. If this is true they need to seriously think about their culture.

People don't kill themselves because of work load. People kill themselves because of unaddressed issues, usually mental health stuff. To be clear, anytime a young person takes his or her life, it's a tragedy, but I get frustrated with the navel-gazing analysis that occurs after about "work culture" as if having to write briefs or review diligence documents for 70 hours a week causes people to end their life.

For those that forgot or can't read good, this was the original post that started the controversy. A poster said, perhaps somewhat combatively, that If a person commits suicide they did that because of issues such as depression, anxiety, or other underlying issues. Specifically paperwork does not cause happy, well adjusted and non-suicidal people to kill themselves. Nothing about writing makes someone die. Now, could stress, anxiety, depression, abuse cause someone to do that, sure. BUT PAPER DOES NOT KILL. Those are UNDERLYING issues and EMOTIONS that someone is feeling. This is so obvious and non-controversial I honestly...I have no words.

[JamezPhoenix]

People don't kill themselves because of work load. People kill themselves because of unaddressed issues, usually mental health stuff. To be clear, anytime a young person takes his or her life, it's a tragedy, but I get frustrated with the navel-gazing analysis that occurs after about "work culture" as if having to write briefs or review diligence documents for 70 hours a week causes people to end their life.

Brave anon. This is a garbage take.

Agreed.

Yet as you see, this was seen as a "garbage take" because a person said, if a person kills themselves they are suffering from mental health issues. That literally does not make sense. People who are not suffering from ANY mental health or stress issues DO NOT kill themselves. There are not a bunch of happy families jumping off cliffs because their lives are so wonderful. I...I really don't understand...

[JamezPhoenix]

I am aware of a 2020 grad who worked at Akin who passed away last week. I wasn't aware it was a suicide, although I didn't see any news regarding it (so probably wasn't a car accident or something similar). That's incredibly tragic. NO JOB IS WORTH YOUR LIFE. IF IT IS THAT BAD, PLEASE JUST QUIT.

I’ve heard some terrible things out of Akin Rx esp lately. If this is true they need to seriously think about their culture.

People don't kill themselves because of work load. People kill themselves because of unaddressed issues, usually mental health stuff. To be clear, anytime a young person takes his or her life, it's a tragedy, but I get frustrated with the navel-gazing analysis that occurs after about "work culture" as if having to write briefs or review diligence documents for 70 hours a week causes people to end their life.

As someone who has struggled with my own mental health issues and see a therapist on a regular basis to work through it, all this tells me is you have no idea what mental health is all about and, likely have never seen a therapist in your life. People take their life for countless reasons - a failed relationship, losing a job, demands of work, harassment, bullying, a rouge online comment, or countless other reasons. Maybe underlying, unaddressed issues are also to blame but such a blanket statement does nothing but reinforce that their is a problem in our high-expectation, high-stress, high-demand work environment.

I've had very close family members who have dealt with depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, and schizophrenia. Is that a good enough cred signal for you? I've seen it.

The only point I and several others are making is that people like this are always one bad environment away from making that fateful decision. There's nothing particular to biglaw that causes this and it isn't biglaw's responsibility to change its structure because of it. The same result would have occurred, hypothetically, if this person were working in banking or a fire department or the military or as a surgeon or countless other high stress / high intensity environments. Or, you know what, maybe the environment had absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever and it was just a question of time.

I always lol when burnt out associates project when something like this happens and start wringing their hands about the "toxic culture." Culture didn't cause this. Again, this is a tragedy and a very sad course of events but it wasn't because of anything that was happening inside of Akin or any other firm. It was something inside that person.

I shouldn't have to hold your hand and walk you through this...I am baffled that high intelligent and accomplished people refuse to accept that people who commit suicide are suffering from mental health issues. As you will see if you read this post, the poster was very clear and empathetic that suicide is a tragedy. But it is a MENTAL HEALTH tragedy. If a person killed themselves due to stress from BL, they would likely also kill themselves due to stress from working in the military and seeing all their friends die, or working as a surgeon and seeing their patients die. Or working in a fire department and seeing a family burn up. Veterinarians have a higher suicide rate than lawyers, you want to know why? Because it sucks watching animals die over and over. These are "high stress/ high intensity environments" that not everyone is cut out for. I know that I couldn't handle being a vet, or a doctor, it would make me depressed. So I wont go to medical/veterinary school. It is all about what an individual's personal make-up and triggers/stressors are. Those are unique to individuals.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at your post history you are still in law school. Please stop spamming. You think you understand, but you don't. If you still feel this way after a stint in biglaw, then ok. But take a chill pill until then.

[JamezPhoenix]

Are you really saying that chronic stress has nothing to do with someone’s mental health, or that chronic stress isn’t endemic to biglaw? No one’s claiming that biglaw is the only kind of job that could mess with someone’s mental health, but as jobs go, it’s pretty stressful.

I'm not some biglaw denialist. Of course there's stress present in biglaw; sometimes the job downright sucks. Like in many other fields and jobs, especially ones that are highly compensated. But unlike most of the people commenting here (and like what I suspect is the silent majority), when a 1 in 1,000,000 event like this happens, I don't draw any deeper inference from it though than "that's very sad for this individual and his family; I'm deeply sorry it happened." In other words, I don't see it as a bridge to some great insight about a problem in biglaw culture, because it doesn't imply one. Hot take: If anything using a suicide like that is almost a little exploitative.

So you think big law is stressful, but that stress has nothing to do with subsequent mental health problems?

My hot take is that this isn’t a great insight into biglaw culture exclusively but into more widespread unhealthy ideas about work and money and prestige and self-worth that tie directly into current rates of depression and anxiety. That doesn’t mean biglaw is exclusively responsible for something like this, just that all employers have some obligation to think about their employees’ mental health, whether the conditions of their job exacerbate problems, and whether those conditions can be mitigated.

That's really never been the point of my posts nor do I think anyone is really arguing that, are they? Of course if someone is deeply suicidal then throwing them into an environment that's high stress / high function / high stakes may affect them. Who would deny that? That's an easily provable claim and maybe people are getting worked up because they think that's what's being argued against and so we some miscommunication.

The point we're making, I think, is that it doesn't suggest some deeper problem in the culture of biglaw or any other environment that's similar. There's nothing you do when something like this happens. It's not the job of biglaw to change because 1 troubled attorney in a million killed himself, as individually tragic as that may be. I think that's the point the original anon was getting at with "if you put him in x or y or z, the same thing would have happened." We all learned about the eggshell plaintiff as 1Ls, right? Also, I'm not doing this all morning I ironically I guess have to get to work.

Like MrTooToo said, BL is stressful ---> high stress environments are not good for people prone to suicidality or depression ---> therefore people with "UNDERLYING ISSUES" should not go into BL. Conversely, if you get in a high stress environment and develop "UNDERLYING ISSUES" you should try to leave. But that take is seen as "garbage" and "lacking empathy" . Previously happy doctors, lawyers, electricians kill themselves (albeit rarely) but they do so because of UNDERLYING ISSUES, not because they worked in a building called a hospital or a structure called a law firm. Me and MrToo have both said that we are in agreement but you keep arguing with us because you aren't comprehending what you are reading. You see injustice everywhere and think that BL should be like relaxing on the beach enjoying a martini while getting paid six figures and ready to fight as soon as someone says, "mental health issues". Sure I think we would all agree that a better work life balance, less toxic coworkers would be great, but the fact that 99.999999% of people in those environments, including everyone commenting here, are not currently dead proves that BL does not directly cause suicide. Literally no one is disagreeing with everyone on here jumping at the chance to prove their virtue. The only point being made is that the physical manifestation of paper does not kill people, their own thoughts and feelings drives them to tragically take their life. Thoughts and feelings which are not unique to any one particular high-stress/ high-intensity environments.

[JamezPhoenix]

Looking at your post history you are still in law school. Please stop spamming. You think you understand, but you don't. If you still feel this way after a stint in biglaw, then ok. But take a chill pill until then.

If you looked at my history you would know I was clear IN THIS THREAD that I was not yet in BL but planning to be. I asked if there were contractual stipulations that made it impossible for one to quit and/or just not show up to work. Previous posters made it seem as though there was no way out and suicide was the inevitable result of working in BL. I wanted to know if this was true before I went inside a building that, like the Haunting of Hill House, would not allow me to leave until I killed myself.

[nixy]

JamezPhoenix, I’m not sure why you’re so freaked out about this, but maybe think about why so many people here who’ve dealt with depression and biglaw might be disagreeing with you.

I didn’t call that take garbage because the poster said it was a mental health issue. Of course it’s a mental health issue. I called it a garbage take because they said people don’t kill themselves because of work load or work culture. Those things absolutely affect people’s mental health, and biglaw could do something about it, but they don’t because they value profit over people’s mental health. If you think that’s okay you’re entitled to that opinion, just a lot of people will disagree with you.

(I think this is out of order with your other posts now, but whatever.)

[nixy]

Having caught up on the rest of your screeds - whatever, dude. Clearly you’re not in a position to get it at this point. Enjoy biglaw.

[JamezPhoenix]

JamezPhoenix, I’m not sure why you’re so freaked out about this, but maybe think about why so many people here who’ve dealt with depression and biglaw might be disagreeing with you.

I didn’t call that take garbage because the poster said it was a mental health issue. Of course it’s a mental health issue. I called it a garbage take because they said people don’t kill themselves because of work load or work culture. Those things absolutely affect people’s mental health, and biglaw could do something about it, but they don’t because they value profit over people’s mental health. If you think that’s okay you’re entitled to that opinion, just a lot of people will disagree with you.

(I think this is out of order with your other posts now, but whatever.)

Alright...one last attempt...
We agree. We have always agreed.
This is mine and I believe MrToo's argument:
BL is stressful ---> high stress environments can cause or exacerbate a number of issues ----> these issues (depression, anxiety, etc) can cause someone to think suicide is the right option for them ----> that thought can cause people to commit suicide.
This is the argument most on this thread have made that we pushed back on:
BL is stressful ---> People commit suicide.
There are a number of steps or "underlying issues" that cause someone to go from point A (BigLaw stress) to point Z (Suicide). It is not so simple as "If Big Law, then Suicide".
Because you an switch out BL for any high stress environment. The High stress is the primary mover, not the building that has a law firms name on it. Are there ways to reduce stress, certainly, should law firms pursue them in a way that makes sense, absolutely. But there is stress in many different fields and it is not exclusive or unique to BL.
Seriously, if you can't understand that equation or the point that people have been trying to make by now, then you never will and we will just have to agree to disagree.

[ExpOriental]

If anything is clear from this thread, it's that JamezPhoenix has that rare granite-like mental stability that is necessary to make it in biglaw.

Everyone defer appropriately.

[nixy]

If anything is clear from this thread, it's that JamezPhoenix has that rare granite-like mental stability that is necessary to make it in biglaw.

Everyone defer appropriately.

[Anonymous User]

This is the argument most on this thread have made that we pushed back on:
BL is stressful ---> People commit suicide.
There are a number of steps or "underlying issues" that cause someone to go from point A (BigLaw stress) to point Z (Suicide). It is not so simple as "If Big Law, then Suicide".
Because you an switch out BL for any high stress environment.

You're saying that:
(a) [any high-stress environment] is stressful --> [underlying reasons, etc] --> people commit suicide
(b) therefore, "people commit suicide --> BL is stressful" is wrong
(c) therefore, "BL is stressful --> people commit suicide" is wrong

This is logically incorrect.

Are there ways to reduce stress, certainly, should law firms pursue them in a way that makes sense, absolutely.

Just focus on this instead of making unproductive and incorrect side arguments.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

This is mine and I believe MrToo's argument:
BL is stressful ---> high stress environments can cause or exacerbate a number of issues ----> these issues (depression, anxiety, etc) can cause someone to think suicide is the right option for them ----> that thought can cause people to commit suicide.
This is the argument most on this thread have made that we pushed back on:
BL is stressful ---> People commit suicide.

You're saying A can cause B, which can cause C, which can cause D.

And then you're "pushing back" on people saying A can cause D.

Do you see how those two are logically the same thing?

[aegor]

At a certain point I have to just throw up my hands and assume that you and others just want to argue and haven't actually read anything that has been said. The point is, BL is not unique compared to the medical field, finance, banking, government, etc. And no one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

Did anyone here even claim that BL is unique compared to, say, working at Goldman? You seem to be erecting straw men all over the place. Saying BL exacerbates depression is not a statement about any other industry. I daresay that a lot of IBing associates would have similar complaints.

And the idea that people in the throes of depression can just up in leave (especially if they have $$$ debt and/or family financial obligations) is dangerously fantastical.

[JamezPhoenix]

For clarity, I never said, that A cannot (indirectly) cause D . What people, myself included pushed back on is that A ALWAYS causes D, or Only A causes D. As I stated in my four post rebuttal the issue was that a lot of people disregarded B and C and took a far more radical approach that A DOES cause D, not that A CAN (indirectly) cause D. This is why me and MrToo have been telling you that we don't actually disagree with you overall, it is more a disagreement about how many on this thread completely disregarded how individual choices and psyche plays a central role.
I had thought we made that clear but I do apologize for any confusion.
And yes, people did push back on the idea that Goldman is comparable to say White and Case. Because the original controversy erupted over a person saying that a person who killed themselves due to a high stress environment in a law firm would also be more likely to kill themselves in another high stress environment.
And yes, we do always have the choice to leave, I understand it may be a difficult or perhaps even more damaging decision, but it is you still have agency to make that decision. Like the classic case of the terrorist who makes me choose to kill my wife or my child, I STILL have a decision.

[JamezPhoenix]

A comparable example is a person of color gets cut off by a white guy on the freeway and everyone on here immediately says the driver must be a racist and all white men are racist. The original argument was that there are several other reasons why this person would cut in front, most having nothing to do with race, and even if the guy did happen to be racist that does not mean that all white people are racist or that racists would only cut off a person of color. Once again I encourage the people who think they disagree with me and MrToo to re-read the first page and our first arguments. You have all been attacking straw man arguments that we never made. And my frustration stems from the fact that I have been saying that and yet people continue to misconstrue my points. I really don't know how many times I can keep saying the same thing in different ways before you stop attacking straw men and erecting red herrings.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone involved in the last 60 posts on this need to rethink everything LMAOOOOOO and just get slammed like a normal person

[aegor]

As I stated in my four post rebuttal the issue was that a lot of people disregarded B and C and took a far more radical approach that A DOES cause D, not that A CAN (indirectly) cause D.

But no one said that as a categorical rule BL=you will suicide. Again, you seem to have a narrative you want to address that is simply not present in this thread. You seem to lack reading comprehension ability, because you are the one erecting strawmen here.

And yes, people did push back on the idea that Goldman is comparable to say White and Case.

Where?

Because the original controversy erupted over a person saying that a person who killed themselves due to a high stress environment in a law firm would also be more likely to kill themselves in another high stress environment.

Really? Where did anyone push back against the idea that the legal industry is not unique among high-stress environments?

And yes, we do always have the choice to leave, I understand it may be a difficult or perhaps even more damaging decision, but it is you still have agency to make that decision. Like the classic case of the terrorist who makes me choose to kill my wife or my child, I STILL have a decision.

The two situations are not comparable. Depression and other psychological conditions inherently affect agency. Surely you would not argue that individuals in the midst of a psychotic, delusional episode have full agency. While not as extreme, depression absolutely affects agency as well. Nothing in your posts suggest you recognize that basic medical reality.

[JamezPhoenix]

Everyone involved in the last 60 posts on this need to rethink everything LMAOOOOOO and just get slammed like a normal person

+1

[JamezPhoenix]

As I stated in my four post rebuttal the issue was that a lot of people disregarded B and C and took a far more radical approach that A DOES cause D, not that A CAN (indirectly) cause D.

But no one said that as a categorical rule BL=you will suicide. Again, you seem to have a narrative you want to address that is simply not present in this thread. You seem to lack reading comprehension ability, because you are the one erecting strawmen here.

And yes, people did push back on the idea that Goldman is comparable to say White and Case.

Where?

Because the original controversy erupted over a person saying that a person who killed themselves due to a high stress environment in a law firm would also be more likely to kill themselves in another high stress environment.

Really? Where did anyone push back against the idea that the legal industry is not unique among high-stress environments?

And yes, we do always have the choice to leave, I understand it may be a difficult or perhaps even more damaging decision, but it is you still have agency to make that decision. Like the classic case of the terrorist who makes me choose to kill my wife or my child, I STILL have a decision.

The two situations are not comparable. Depression and other psychological conditions inherently affect agency. Surely you would not argue that individuals in the midst of a psychotic, delusional episode have full agency. While not as extreme, depression absolutely affects agency as well. Nothing in your posts suggest you recognize that basic medical reality.

Re-read the first page, the first post I made and the first post MrToo wrote. Or...any of the responses to those posts. We said mental health issues cause people to commit suicide and got an avalanche of snarky replies because of it. Which would have been fine if people actually read what we had wrote and not attacked straw men.
As I, and several people said at the outset, if you are having those feelings seek counselling or the help of close friends/family immediately. No job is worth killing yourself over.

[motojir]

Looking at your post history you are still in law school. Please stop spamming. You think you understand, but you don't. If you still feel this way after a stint in biglaw, then ok. But take a chill pill until then.

This is the problem with online arguments. You think you're talking to someone with as much experience as you, and it turns out you're talking to some teenage troll.

[aegor]

Re-read the first page, the first post I made and the first post MrToo wrote. Or...any of the responses to those posts. We said mental health issues cause people to commit suicide and got an avalanche of snarky replies because of it. Which would have been fine if people actually read what we had wrote and not attacked straw men.

I did re-read it, because that is a really fucking basic task. I also want you to answer my questions, which are equally really fucking basic.

I asked you to quote. And you did not and cannot. The problem is this: you packed a kernel of truth that everyone acknowledges into a towering pile of bullshit. You are then claiming that people are attributing the stench to the undigested kernel rather than its odiferous casing.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at your post history you are still in law school. Please stop spamming. You think you understand, but you don't. If you still feel this way after a stint in biglaw, then ok. But take a chill pill until then.

This is the problem with online arguments. You think you're talking to someone with as much experience as you, and it turns out you're talking to some teenage troll.

How unfortunate that what could have been an interesting discussion about mental health and the impact of the toxic culture of BL on it has been derailed by someone who hasn’t spent even one day at a firm.

[Anonymous User]

I really hope JamezPhoenix joins my firm, specifically my group, and gets staffed on my deal, because I sure as hell won't feel sorry one bit telling him to turn drafts at 11:30PM on a Friday night.