Which partners at your firms are notoriously terrible to work for? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've been working a lot with a partner and just found out that this partner has a bad reputation with associates. But I've never experienced this! I was shocked to hear it. Is it just a personality thing and just so happened to click? Should I be worried that it takes a while for to wake the dragon?

Apologies if this is off topic but I didn't think it warrants its own thread. Seemed somewhat relevant to the discussion of ppl having very different experiences with different partners.

Typically the "horror show" partners find one or two associates who they can tolerate, and who can tolerate them in turn. Often they bestow protection and career advancement possibilities on these favored few, so it can actually be a decent gig. Of course, for most associates every interaction with that partner is like undergoing a root canal, so becoming that favored associate is just a quick ticket to resignation from the firm. But doesn't heart to give a shot and see what makes this partner tick, as on the one hand it could be stunningly negligent disregard for your time or veiled personal insults, which of course is to be avoided, or it could be either excessive nitpickiness or a total hands-off mentality, which can actually appeal to some associates.

I will say I was wondering why this partner sticks to just a few associates! Have not had any unpleasantness with disregard for time (the opposite in fact) or any other personal issues. I guess nitpicky feedback fits, didn't bother me but that's the most likely explanation. (and maybe it led to escalations with others?)

[Anonymous User]

I've been working a lot with a partner and just found out that this partner has a bad reputation with associates. But I've never experienced this! I was shocked to hear it. Is it just a personality thing and just so happened to click? Should I be worried that it takes a while for to wake the dragon?

Apologies if this is off topic but I didn't think it warrants its own thread. Seemed somewhat relevant to the discussion of ppl having very different experiences with different partners.

Typically the "horror show" partners find one or two associates who they can tolerate, and who can tolerate them in turn. Often they bestow protection and career advancement possibilities on these favored few, so it can actually be a decent gig. Of course, for most associates every interaction with that partner is like undergoing a root canal, so becoming that favored associate is just a quick ticket to resignation from the firm. But doesn't heart to give a shot and see what makes this partner tick, as on the one hand it could be stunningly negligent disregard for your time or veiled personal insults, which of course is to be avoided, or it could be either excessive nitpickiness or a total hands-off mentality, which can actually appeal to some associates.

I will say I was wondering why this partner sticks to just a few associates! Have not had any unpleasantness with disregard for time (the opposite in fact) or any other personal issues. I guess nitpicky feedback fits, didn't bother me but that's the most likely explanation. (and maybe it led to escalations with others?)

You never know, but typically partners with bad reputations have them for a reason. Doesn't hurt to give them a shot, but overwhelmingly likely that you will end up in the same boat as the vast majority of associates and look to avoid the guy in the future.

[Anonymous User]

I used to work in Weil’s bankruptcy group (gone from the firm) and worked with Mariel very closely on a couple of deals. It’s been a while but I’m pretty sure she was still a senior associate at the time, not yet partner.

She was always nice in my experience. Definitely intense but not psychotic. And I don’t remember any associate in m&a working on either of those deals quitting mid-deal (I could be forgetting someone).

The above tirade against Mariel is extremely bizarre and, frankly, absurd? How could one person know all of that information? You have access to every person’s exit interview and you know the contents of every private senior management conversation with firm personnel? I’m calling bullshit unless the anonymous poster was Barry himself.

Also, I’m not a bootlicker for the record - agreed that Gavin is a prick.

I actually rolled my eyes when I read your first sentence (i.e., you worked in BFR). There is a world of difference in working WITH someone from another group and then working FOR someone as part of their group. That's like me, as an M&A Associate, saying a particular BFR Partner is great to work with, while I'm sure most BFR Associates would unanimously disagree since they are the ones who have to work FOR them.

Also, confused by your exit interview and senior management point...how can one have access to such information? It's called having friends. You know, you work with people long enough, and during tough times, you talk, get to know each other, discuss why you're leaving, the reasons for doing so, etc. This includes both Partners and associates. And especially in such a toxic group as M&A, everyone is privy to all the latest scoop.

And for those non-weil folks reading these, the fact that one or two BFR associates are saying kind words should tell you everything you need to know, considering BFR is the most psychotic/hardo group in the firm. You are the company you keep...

Can vouch for what the other posters have said (minus the BFR clowns). Ex-weil, worked in weil M&A NY for 7+ (student debts/childcare in case you're wondering why it took me so long), place/people are hell...

[Anonymous User]

I've been working a lot with a partner and just found out that this partner has a bad reputation with associates. But I've never experienced this! I was shocked to hear it. Is it just a personality thing and just so happened to click? Should I be worried that it takes a while for to wake the dragon?

Apologies if this is off topic but I didn't think it warrants its own thread. Seemed somewhat relevant to the discussion of ppl having very different experiences with different partners.

Typically the "horror show" partners find one or two associates who they can tolerate, and who can tolerate them in turn. Often they bestow protection and career advancement possibilities on these favored few, so it can actually be a decent gig. Of course, for most associates every interaction with that partner is like undergoing a root canal, so becoming that favored associate is just a quick ticket to resignation from the firm. But doesn't heart to give a shot and see what makes this partner tick, as on the one hand it could be stunningly negligent disregard for your time or veiled personal insults, which of course is to be avoided, or it could be either excessive nitpickiness or a total hands-off mentality, which can actually appeal to some associates.

I will say I was wondering why this partner sticks to just a few associates! Have not had any unpleasantness with disregard for time (the opposite in fact) or any other personal issues. I guess nitpicky feedback fits, didn't bother me but that's the most likely explanation. (and maybe it led to escalations with others?)

I'm not the person who previously responded to you but I was in your situation, or at least a similar situation, at my first firm. It's not that I loved working with this partner but I generally didn't mind his idiosyncrasies and he was generally nice to me. I think it might have helped that we first talked during my callback and then over the summer and when I came back, and then I accidentally ended up on one of his matters and he kept staffing me. It also helped that I was (mostly) interested in the work he was doing. This is not to say that he's a particularly nice (or misunderstood) person or that I was somehow more capable than my colleagues (I know at least two associates in my year cried after talking to him and more that always hoped to avoid his matters). I just found some of his snarky emails (aimed at me) funny and would be half-snarky in response (always professional, and apologetic if appropriate, but not taking shit or throwing myself on the sword) and always, always stayed calm. I guess it didn't bother me too much when he'd nitpick, though I'd sometimes bitch to the other associates about it. Honestly, I had other reasons (including some partners) to lateral but if I could have gotten 90% of my work from this partner, I'd likely have stayed. For quite a few others, getting 90% of their work from this partner would have been a nightmare. (As getting most of my work from the partners I wanted to avoid would have been for me.)

[Anonymous User]

I also have an unexpectedly good relationship with one of the notorious partners at my firm. Don't know how that happened -- and I certainly don't think it's because my work product is superior to that of my colleagues -- but it is a blessing because even though I get staffed with them a lot, they're usually perfectly pleasant to me, if demanding. I have heard this partner scream at other associates, though, so I know what they are capable of and am under no illusions that my number will likely come up at some point, though by now I feel like there is a store of good will to soften the eventual blow. The benefits are that the partner has a lot of sway at the firm and is known for protecting/advancing their favorites, so I guess I will take it/enjoy it while it lasts? The downside is being seen as a stooge by other associates even though I did nothing to be in this position.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland Chicago's litigation group. Who should I avoid?

Yates French and Barry Fields are both incredibly difficult to work for.

I have heard that Martin Roth and Katie Jakola are also difficult to work for, but have no first-hand experience as to those two.

Kirkland Chicago's transactional group. Who should I avoid?

[Anonymous User]

Gavin Westerman
Mariel Cruz

Weil M&A. Stay away.

Can you share more? My limited experience with them so far has been pretty pleasant.

I used to work at Weil (not in M&A, but with M&A) and I’m surprised to see both of these names, particularly Mariel. But maybe it’s worse if you work directly for them

It is. I've seen both of them put on surface level charisma and charm towards summers, so it's not surprising that people in here that aren't in M&A have good impressions of them. But they are absolutely terrible to work for directly. Both of them have yelled at associates on large conference calls including the other side. Both of them make up fake deadlines and kill your weekends as a form of penalty if you make tiny mistakes. Multiple people have cited them specifically (especially Mariel, actually) as their reasons for leaving. Gavin has berated a few associates after handing in their notice periods and goes out of his way to make your notice period hell.

They're collectively the "distressed M&A" experts in the group, which is a colossally shitty practice, but they really make it so much worse by being awful people on top of it.

Whereas Gavin generally sucks, Mariel, on the other hand, is just a terrible human being, to the core. She is vicious and is the poster child for the old adage "If they eyes don't match the smile, RUN."

Had to look Mariel up out of curiosity. Must say, yours is an underappreciated comment.

[Anonymous User]

any Cleary DC known quantities?

[Anonymous User]

It's funny because depending on your personality the answer will be different. For example, I can handle mean partners, but I cannot deal with the neurotic partners who bend over backwards to please their clients. I'd rather get a snippy, rude email than spend my night going down a rabbit hole that the client didn't ask for simply because the partner is a neurotic worry wart and wants to anticipate the clients needs. So many hours wasted of my life doing that crap and I actively stay away from those people now.

Of course, there are certainly some partners that are universally terrible.

This speaks to me. I work under a few mid/senior associates who legitimately do this to cope with their anxiety. They don't know how to compartmentalize so they just predict what the senior associate on the case is going to want and send the juniors on insane fishing expeditions. To an extent, this is what you're supposed to do as an associate and I understand that, but these people are going way over the top and have a 1/10 hit-rate on it actually being something that anyone cares about.

[Anonymous User]

I don't mind going on a wild goose chase so long as I get billable credit for it. I do mind if I'm pressured to do it by tomorrow 9am when it wasn't actually necessary, let alone urgent.

Also, I got yelled at by a partner for the first time this week. He immediately apologized and is otherwise OK so I'm not going to blast him (yet). But it bothered me more than I thought it would. Just a really unpleasant experience. Even though he took it back.

[Saami]

Also, I got yelled at by a partner for the first time this week. He immediately apologized and is otherwise OK so I'm not going to blast him (yet). But it bothered me more than I thought it would. Just a really unpleasant experience. Even though he took it back.

Remember, the issue is with him, not you. Yelling is completely unprofessional in 99.999% of contexts.

[Anonymous User]

Also, I got yelled at by a partner for the first time this week. He immediately apologized and is otherwise OK so I'm not going to blast him (yet). But it bothered me more than I thought it would. Just a really unpleasant experience. Even though he took it back.

Remember, the issue is with him, not you. Yelling is completely unprofessional in 99.999% of contexts.

I know. But I still didn't enjoy the experience. Made me want to quit on the spot.

[Anonymous User]

Don't bother asking about Kirkland dirt lol. Go a few pages back and you'll see the same discussion. Kirkland folk are weirdly quiet about their masters.

They are the most frequent TLS posters and there is no way a firm as big as Kirkland doesn't have at least some nasty partners. Yet Kirkland associates are too scared to go there. Lawls.

K&E associates post dirt: K&E partners are mean.

K&E associates don’t post dirt: K&E partners are mean and K&E associates are cowards.

Your bias is showing dude.

While I acknowledge that K&E is a firm that is hated by many on TLS, I am pretty indifferent to K&E and feel that most of the criticism the firm gets about aggressive personalities, being a 'sweatshop', or treating its associates poorly is applicable to the majority of V10 big law firms if not the majority of big law firms in general.

I don't see why you're sensitive to my pointing out that K&E associates generally tend to have a herd mentality rooted in fear (maybe loyalty? I don't know) when it comes to naming partners in their firm of 4,000 attorneys. People with common sense understand that K&E is going to have mean partners much like every firm. This idea that K&E associates refuse to divulge names because they are worried about TLS criticism of K&E is hilarious. I don't see an issue with pointing out to people asking about K&E that K&E associates are too afraid to go there.

You're taking this too personally.

I think his point is you’re taking it too personally. There isn’t some Kirkland conspiracy. People here obsess over the firm in weird ways.

KE Associate here - I've worked with one midlevel associate who deserves to be named and shamed but I won't because this is a partner thread. Honestly, all of the partners I've worked with are either neutral or good. They all work very hard and expect the same level of effort from associates, but when they're on the phone or working with you they're normal humans with a lot to do. I've worked under one or two "rainmakers" who are just so rich they don't care because most of their deals are just them on the phone with a friend from Blackstone or something. The worst partners I've worked for are NSPs who have bought in to the partnership hype, and that's just because they expect a lot out of their teams.

Second Yates French - I've heard through word of mouth he gaslights a lot.

Michael Slade is a bit of a screamer but also, like, the best bankruptcy litigator in Chicago. Lit folks have mostly told me it's worth the occasional lecture to work for him.

The worst attorneys I've worked for at KE are gunner midlevels who think they're NSPs. I'd definitely name and shame a few of them.

[Anonymous User]

I had a perfectly normal time working for Michael Slade, occasional pedantry notwithstanding. However, I know for a while he was billing multiple 300 hour months in a row, so that may have pushed him to a breaking point.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland Chicago's litigation group. Who should I avoid?

Yates French and Barry Fields are both incredibly difficult to work for.

I have heard that Martin Roth and Katie Jakola are also difficult to work for, but have no first-hand experience as to those two.

Kirkland Chicago's transactional group. Who should I avoid?

ELN

[Anonymous User]

I had a perfectly normal time working for Michael Slade, occasional pedantry notwithstanding. However, I know for a while he was billing multiple 300 hour months in a row, so that may have pushed him to a breaking point.

Yeah can second this. He was on the firms biggest bankruptcy case and it got very very ugly for almost a six month stretch. That case finally finished but I know if a lot of attorneys from that team who have since left the firm.

[Anonymous User]

[Please Delete]

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland LA transactional group. Who should I avoid?

[Anonymous User]

Jonathan Schechter and Chris Hartmann at the Kirkland NY real estate group. They’re so toxic more than half the group left in 2021. Kirkland NY real estate group in general has a terrible reputation internally in the firm.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland Chicago's litigation group. Who should I avoid?

Yates French and Barry Fields are both incredibly difficult to work for.

I have heard that Martin Roth and Katie Jakola are also difficult to work for, but have no first-hand experience as to those two.

Kirkland Chicago's transactional group. Who should I avoid?

ELN

ELN...?

[Anonymous User]

Jonathan Schechter and Chris Hartmann at the Kirkland NY real estate group. They’re so toxic more than half the group left in 2021. Kirkland NY real estate group in general has a terrible reputation internally in the firm.

I always look up the attorneys mentioned here, and I notice two common themes (not universal, but for the majority of these folks):

1. They look like they were the kids stuffed in lockers in high school.
2. They went to mediocre law schools (GW, Iowa, Minnesota, NY Law School, etc.).

Perhaps these factors have led to them having massive chips on their shoulders and taking it out on associates.

[Anonymous User]

Jonathan Schechter and Chris Hartmann at the Kirkland NY real estate group. They’re so toxic more than half the group left in 2021. Kirkland NY real estate group in general has a terrible reputation internally in the firm.

SECOND THIS VEHEMENTLY. KE Real Estate is where dreams go to die and is by far the worst group in the firm.

They're also just genuinely not nice people at the higher levels. For instance, a former colleague who was Muslim was forced to work on his holidays and on weekends while other religious holidays were far more respected. Anecdotal, but this colleague is a normal human who is having a much nicer time at their current firm - I am inclined to believe them.

[Anonymous User]

Jonathan Schechter and Chris Hartmann at the Kirkland NY real estate group. They’re so toxic more than half the group left in 2021. Kirkland NY real estate group in general has a terrible reputation internally in the firm.

I always look up the attorneys mentioned here, and I notice two common themes (not universal, but for the majority of these folks):

1. They look like they were the kids stuffed in lockers in high school.
2. They went to mediocre law schools (GW, Iowa, Minnesota, NY Law School, etc.).

Perhaps these factors have led to them having massive chips on their shoulders and taking it out on associates.

This is a weird take on multiple levels.

[Anonymous User]

Work in KE NY office and I’ve heard a lot of stories about racist and sexist comments from some of the RE partners (notably Jonathan Schechter) directed at associates. The Chicago RE partners are also toxic af. I’m surprised it didn’t make above the law that the majority of the group (non share partners and associates alike) left in the last two years. At this point last year, a friend from the group told me 15 associates had quit since January!

[Anonymous User]

Jonathan Schechter and Chris Hartmann at the Kirkland NY real estate group. They’re so toxic more than half the group left in 2021. Kirkland NY real estate group in general has a terrible reputation internally in the firm.

SECOND THIS VEHEMENTLY. KE Real Estate is where dreams go to die and is by far the worst group in the firm.

They're also just genuinely not nice people at the higher levels. For instance, a former colleague who was Muslim was forced to work on his holidays and on weekends while other religious holidays were far more respected. Anecdotal, but this colleague is a normal human who is having a much nicer time at their current firm - I am inclined to believe them.

Not to detail this thread too much, but I have to chime in and say as a K&E associate this type of thing really bothers me. The firm bends over backwards to acknowledge all kinds of themed days, weeks, or months (women's month; Earth Day; black history month; etc etc), but seems to totally marginalize other religious holidays or major events like Ramadan or Eid (which are big ones for Muslims.

If you're going to acknowledge holidays or religious events or themed things, you should do all of them or at least the major ones. Also, lots of partners take off for Jewish holidays, so it's really shitty and inexcusable to force Muslims to work on holidays that come up only twice every YEAR.