Jones Day Raise/Review Forum

[Anonymous User]

Deleted. Don’t want to get sued

[LBJ's Hair]

They might match, but highly skeptical of a good outcome. Several of my friends this year who started at JD after clerking (so, started as 2nd or 3rd years) started at 190-195...so already under market as soon as they started. They assumed they'd at least start at market, and by the time they found out their starting pay it was too late in the clerkship hiring process to shop around at other firms. This firm doesn't even treat clerks, its proclaimed prize jewels, well.

And who's to say the clerks Jones Day lowballs would have received an offer if it meant market pay? Everyone I know who accepted Jones Day at 190 had no other good option.

Seems like a great place to work.

[Anonymous User]

Removed. We can’t discuss anything here.

[Anonymous User]

So, to be clear, people think I *should* be optimistic about starting at $205k in the fall in DC/NYC/LA, instead of at $190k?

I think they'll definitely match. My guess is they're just seeing how the market settles and determining how much they should adjust salaries for offices in secondary markets.

They might match, but highly skeptical of a good outcome. Several of my friends this year who started at JD after clerking (so, started as 2nd or 3rd years) started at 190-195...so already under market as soon as they started. They assumed they'd at least start at market, and by the time they found out their starting pay it was too late in the clerkship hiring process to shop around at other firms. This firm doesn't even treat clerks, its proclaimed prize jewels, well.

I'm confused how this is specifically Jones Day's fault. Did your friends not interview elsewhere? If not, why not? If they did, why didn't they choose another option? It's not like Jones Day waits to give you your salary until after you've signed your offer letter.

Like you, I know clerks that started at 190. However, I also know clerks that started at or above market. Best believe Jones Day treats at least some of its "prize jewels" well (or it wouldn't have nine new SCOTUS clerks this year). And who's to say the clerks Jones Day lowballs would have received an offer if it meant market pay? Everyone I know who accepted Jones Day at 190 had no other good option.

I have to believe this poster is a JD legal recruiter. These friends certainly could've had other options, but enjoyed their summers at JD and were told they would receive second year market pay as a starting point upon their return. The salary was not listed in their offer letters - it literally said "salary will be commensurate with second year market pay in x year but will be no less than 190k." They were told this was to protect them, since market could increase during their clerkship. Then, a couple weeks before the start date, they were informed what their starting pay would be. At least one friend asked why their starting pay was lower than second year market and was told that market was defined as "market for Jones Day." There's a significant difference between "can't find any other option" and "strung along until two weeks before the start date." Yes, maybe they were dumb to believe that black box wouldn't screw them over, but that isn't exactly high marks for JD.

[Anonymous User]

They will definitely match. So much anger on here about Jones Day. If you have no interest in becoming a partner, and you only want to make as much money as possible while an associate do not go to JD.

This is Jones Day’s nonsense. First, your likelihood of “making partner” is not apples to apples when “making partner” means being a perpetual associate at a $350k salary and having a partner title. Who cares about JD’s worthless fake non-percentage participant partners? Most of Jones Day’s fake partners aren’t qualified to lick the feet of the associates at a Wall Street firm with a $5 million PPP. Accordingly, despite their decades of experience, they’re paid less than a 4th year at DPW.

LOL. "Lick the feet of the associates at a Wall Street firm"? Seriously? People in this thread need to take it down 10 or 11 notches. Jones Day isn't a compensation leader and no one has ever argued otherwise. Neither is Williams & Connolly, Orrick Herrington, or Zuckerman Spaeder. As someone else mentioned, Jones Day is doing its own thing. It's not for everyone. It's a bad place for a one-foot-out-the-door associate to stockpile cash. It's a decent place for a competent lawyer without any interest in business development to settle down and have a sustainable career. You won't make Davis Polk equity partner money, but not everyone cares. Believe it or not, some consider a steady $500,000+ salary in Cleveland or Detroit a good outcome. Not your cup of tea? That's fine. No one's making you work there.

[Anonymous User]

The idea that Jones Day partners in a major markets are making 350k is absurd and untrue..

[Anonymous User]

I'll admit, I'm a little baffled by the overall hostility. Like, I get why someone who works at JD and is underpaid would be angry, or who has a friend that works there and is underpaid, would be angry. But the anger and wrath by people towards a firm with which they have no affiliation and will not ever have an affiliation in this thread just seems...over the top?

I'm not defending the black box system, really, b/c I know it leads to underpaying most people compared to many generic firms in places like NYC and DC (including me, probably, unless I luck into a clerkship and leave after my first year and then decamp for another firm afterwards). But it seems like people lose the ability to rationally approach JD, as opposed to all the other firms that underpay people. I mean, does anyone seriously believe partner at JD is "a perpetual associate at a $350k salary"? That's ludicrous. And "[m]ost of Jones Day’s fake partners aren’t qualified to lick the feet of the associates at a Wall Street firm with a $5 million PPP"? Holy crap on a cracker, I can't even begin to unpack the insanity of that sentence. I really don't get it.

[Anonymous User]

I have to believe this poster is a JD legal recruiter.

Jones Day is the new George Soros. Any semblance of a positive thought about the firm is bought and paid for by known Marxist revolutionary, Steve Brogan. Praying my check has already been mailed.

[LBJ's Hair]

As someone else mentioned, Jones Day is doing its own thing. It's not for everyone. It's a bad place for a one-foot-out-the-door associate to stockpile cash. It's a decent place for a competent lawyer without any interest in business development to settle down and have a sustainable career. You won't make Davis Polk equity partner money, but not everyone cares. Believe it or not, some consider a steady $500,000+ salary in Cleveland or Detroit a good outcome. Not your cup of tea? That's fine. No one's making you work there.

the thing they're "doing" is using a compensation model that purports to pay people based on performance, but has the purpose and effect of systematically underpaying its employees vis-a-vis the market

not only will NY partners "not make DPW equity partner money," NY associates won't even make "DPW associate money." which is ridiculous.

I dunno why you're defending this lol. Jones Day isn't some shit-tier law firm doing crappy little cases, hiring from shitty backwater law schools. it does big cases. it (used to) have a nationally-leading bankruptcy practice. it regularly hires double-digit SCOTUS clerks. it can afford to pay market, like all the other law firms that are ostensibly its peers.

never worked there, but heard enough horror stories from peers who have. no reason for Anons to carry water for this scummy comp model.

[Anonymous User]

I have to believe this poster is a JD legal recruiter.

Jones Day is the new George Soros. Any semblance of a positive thought about the firm is bought and paid for by known Marxist revolutionary, Steve Brogan. Praying my check has already been mailed.

Seriously. It's particularly funny since JD notoriously doesn't care what anyone thinks about it. It takes on unpopular clients like Trump, issues indignant press releases when sued, and refuses to use external PR firms to get rid of bad press. And people think that firm would pay users on TLS to write "lukewarm defenses" masquerading as moderate opinions? Let's take off our tinfoil hats.

[Anonymous User]

Deleted.

[Anonymous User]

I have to believe this poster is a JD legal recruiter.

Jones Day is the new George Soros. Any semblance of a positive thought about the firm is bought and paid for by known Marxist revolutionary, Steve Brogan. Praying my check has already been mailed.

Seriously. It's particularly funny since JD notoriously doesn't care what anyone thinks about it. It takes on unpopular clients like Trump, issues indignant press releases when sued, and refuses to use external PR firms to get rid of bad press. And people think that firm would pay users on TLS to write "lukewarm defenses" masquerading as moderate opinions? Let's take off our tinfoil hats.

All of these were written by JD’s social media minions. These are actually JD employees who work on Jd’s social media messaging. This entire firm is based on luring in unsuspecting people and paying them peanuts and using abuse, threats and intimidation to prevent them from getting their fair due. Even McDermott and DLA pay market. JD is a few tiers below those firms.

Disregard this post. It was written by George Conway and the Lincoln Project's social media minions. This is actually a Lincoln Project employee who works on the Lincoln Project's social media messaging. You almost had me fooled, George!

[Anonymous User]

The JD associates I know generally did not have vastly superior options. I would be curious to hear the stories (firsthand or secondhand) of associates who picked JD over comparable or higher-ranked firms that pay market. Is there something about the firm culture that appealed to you/your classmate? I get the leverage point, but there are a decent number of market-paying firms with comparable leverage.

https://www.chambers-associate.com/law- ... e-leverage

ETA: I am talking specifically about NY and DC markets (with the DC appellate group excepted).

[2013]

The JD associates I know generally did not have vastly superior options. I would be curious to hear the stories (firsthand or secondhand) of associates who picked JD over comparable or higher-ranked firms that pay market. Is there something about the firm culture that appealed to you/your classmate? I get the leverage point, but there are a decent number of market-paying firms with comparable leverage.

https://www.chambers-associate.com/law- ... e-leverage

That chambers list is misleading (it shows leverage based on all partners not just equity) but agree with your point.

[Anonymous User]

I have to believe this poster is a JD legal recruiter.

Jones Day is the new George Soros. Any semblance of a positive thought about the firm is bought and paid for by known Marxist revolutionary, Steve Brogan. Praying my check has already been mailed.

Seriously. It's particularly funny since JD notoriously doesn't care what anyone thinks about it. It takes on unpopular clients like Trump, issues indignant press releases when sued, and refuses to use external PR firms to get rid of bad press. And people think that firm would pay users on TLS to write "lukewarm defenses" masquerading as moderate opinions? Let's take off our tinfoil hats.

All of these were written by JD’s social media minions. These are actually JD employees who work on Jd’s social media messaging. This entire firm is based on luring in unsuspecting people and paying them peanuts and using abuse, threats and intimidation to prevent them from getting their fair due. Even McDermott and DLA pay market. JD is a few tiers below those firms.

I genuinely cannot tell if your entire contribution to this thread is satire.

[Anonymous User]

The JD associates I know generally did not have vastly superior options. I would be curious to hear the stories (firsthand or secondhand) of associates who picked JD over comparable or higher-ranked firms that pay market. Is there something about the firm culture that appealed to you/your classmate? I get the leverage point, but there are a decent number of market-paying firms with comparable leverage.

https://www.chambers-associate.com/law- ... e-leverage

Fair question. I'll weigh in as a midlevel in a major market (NY, DC, Chicago, SF, or LA).

1. Not everyone is getting underpaid, at least not by the same amount. Until the most recent DPW raise I made slightly above market each year (no special bonus, though). It's not uncommon for star associates with enticing lateral options to make market or close to it. You can't count on that as an incoming associate, though.

2. Jones Day has a unique culture. It's run like an old-school partnership, not a business. You're expected to do good work for your clients, not fight for business. As long as you turn in good work, you can stay. If you stay long enough, you'll make partner. If you leave for government, you can come back later, no questions asked. A certain personality thrives in that environment.

3. Certain groups in certain offices have excellent reputations. Jones Day hires many high-ranking government officials. Working with them is rewarding and can jumpstart a career in government.

4. Not directly relevant, but Jones Day is the only / best game in town in many secondary markets.

[Anonymous User]

The JD associates I know generally did not have vastly superior options. I would be curious to hear the stories (firsthand or secondhand) of associates who picked JD over comparable or higher-ranked firms that pay market. Is there something about the firm culture that appealed to you/your classmate? I get the leverage point, but there are a decent number of market-paying firms with comparable leverage.

https://www.chambers-associate.com/law- ... e-leverage

Fair question. I'll weigh in as a midlevel in a major market (NY, DC, Chicago, SF, or LA).

1. Not everyone is getting underpaid, at least not by the same amount. Until the most recent DPW raise I made slightly above market each year (no special bonus, though). It's not uncommon for star associates with enticing lateral options to make market or close to it. You can't count on that as an incoming associate, though.

2. Jones Day has a unique culture. It's run like an old-school partnership, not a business. You're expected to do good work for your clients, not fight for business. As long as you turn in good work, you can stay. If you stay long enough, you'll make partner. If you leave for government, you can come back later, no questions asked. A certain personality thrives in that environment.

3. Certain groups in certain offices have excellent reputations. Jones Day hires many high-ranking government officials. Working with them is rewarding and can jumpstart a career in government.

4. Not directly relevant, but Jones Day is the only / best game in town in many secondary markets.

I summered at JD as a 1L and stuck around as a 2L out of inertia even though I had grades to go to most other V10 or V20 types. I assumed black box mainly meant +/- 5-15k on market base/bonus. I personally didn’t have a problem with the possibility of making like ten grand less than market if I liked the place. But now I’m a first year associate and between the market raises and special bonuses, there’s a very real possibility of missing out on over forty grand. I’m definitely not ok with with that.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Again, I'm really baffled by the level of hostility here. I'm seeing people using phrases like "psychotically" to describe posts saying that they stayed at JD because of inertia after 1L, or the (pretty universally agreed upon) fact that JD is the top game in secondary markets which...seem pretty mundane to me? Again, I'm not against calling out the firm for underpaying most people--as someone who's almost certainly gonna be underpaid in the next 24-36 months, I'm all for it--but the tone seems downright hysterical and I don't get it.

[Anonymous User]

Dude, JD’s social media minions are psychotically replying to their own posts so as to present JD in anything resembling a respectable light. These are the lengths a bad law firm goes to to lure in unsuspecting law students and then force down their throat low wages. Stay away from them!

If you are an associate who is underpaid at JD — meaning basically all associates — THREATEN TO LATERAL. Don’t go to your PIC - just send out feelers to other firms using recruiters. If you are good and/or billing a lot, it will show up in your compensation. Do everything possible to make as much noise as possible outside of the firm. When threatened with the loss of your revenue, JD will relent and give you somewhat better pay. Then use that better paycheck as evidence of your worth to get into a quality firm.

JD is known for playing hardball. So play hardball right back. Particularly given how far into the gutter the firm’s reputation has gone, they have no choice but to pay talented associates. They have no way of replacing you!

I’m the first year anon directly above your reply.

To respond to your comment: how would the firm know if I’m sending out feelers? Why would the firm care if a first year associate threatens to jump ship? How would the firm relenting and giving me higher pay actually play out? I can’t “stay away” since I’m already here, but would appreciate more tangible advice on how to actually maximize my comp within the firm.

[Anonymous User]

Dude, JD’s social media minions are psychotically replying to their own posts so as to present JD in anything resembling a respectable light. These are the lengths a bad law firm goes to to lure in unsuspecting law students and then force down their throat low wages. Stay away from them!

If you are an associate who is underpaid at JD — meaning basically all associates — THREATEN TO LATERAL. Don’t go to your PIC - just send out feelers to other firms using recruiters. If you are good and/or billing a lot, it will show up in your compensation. Do everything possible to make as much noise as possible outside of the firm. When threatened with the loss of your revenue, JD will relent and give you somewhat better pay. Then use that better paycheck as evidence of your worth to get into a quality firm.

JD is known for playing hardball. So play hardball right back. Particularly given how far into the gutter the firm’s reputation has gone, they have no choice but to pay talented associates. They have no way of replacing you!

I’m the first year anon directly above your reply.

To respond to your comment: how would the firm know if I’m sending out feelers? Why would the firm care if a first year associate threatens to jump ship? How would the firm relenting and giving me higher pay actually play out? I can’t “stay away” since I’m already here, but would appreciate more tangible advice on how to actually maximize my comp within the firm.

First year is too early to think about leaving. Stay until third, when you’re really profitable but also very marketable. By then you will be underpaid by $100k or more. Just contact other firms and it will make its way back to the partners at JD. The legal community is very small in most of JD’s markets.

[Anonymous User]

Again, I'm really baffled by the level of hostility here. I'm seeing people using phrases like "psychotically" to describe posts saying that they stayed at JD because of inertia after 1L, or the (pretty universally agreed upon) fact that JD is the top game in secondary markets which...seem pretty mundane to me? Again, I'm not against calling out the firm for underpaying most people--as someone who's almost certainly gonna be underpaid in the next 24-36 months, I'm all for it--but the tone seems downright hysterical and I don't get it.

The passion this person has to take on a multinational firm on an internet forum (and characterize anyone with even a slightly more neutral take as a "JD social media minion") makes me think they have some personal issues with the firm beyond the fact that they were probably underpaid. If they never worked at the firm in the first place, then that would be entirely different (and much sadder) situation.

[Anonymous User]

The legal community is very small in most of JD’s markets.

Except, in most of those "small" markets isn't JD the comp leader? Like, who in Cleveland/Minneapolis/Irvine/Pittsburgh is going to top JD for a 3d/4th year associate? I get the comp problem for DC/NYC/LA/Chicago, but for the truly small markets I'm not sure it holds up.

[Anonymous User]

The legal community is very small in most of JD’s markets.

Except, in most of those "small" markets isn't JD the comp leader? Like, who in Cleveland/Minneapolis/Irvine/Pittsburgh is going to top JD for a 3d/4th year associate? I get the comp problem for DC/NYC/LA/Chicago, but for the truly small markets I'm not sure it holds up.

sort of nitpicky and irrelevant point but: irvine is market-paying and other firms in market include gibson, latham, paul hastings, omm, morgan lewis, irell, hueston hennigan etc...

[Anonymous User]

The legal community is very small in most of JD’s markets.

Except, in most of those "small" markets isn't JD the comp leader? Like, who in Cleveland/Minneapolis/Irvine/Pittsburgh is going to top JD for a 3d/4th year associate? I get the comp problem for DC/NYC/LA/Chicago, but for the truly small markets I'm not sure it holds up.

sort of nitpicky and irrelevant point but: irvine is market-paying and other firms in market include gibson, latham, paul hastings, omm, morgan lewis, irell, hueston hennigan etc...

My apologies to Irvine. I withdraw it from the list and rephrase: Who in Cleveland/Minneapolis/Pittsburgh is going to top JD for a 3d/4th year associate?