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Incoming 1L SA at a V10 hence anon, where I will most likely be trying for M&A work. While I'm grateful for the opportunity and excited to work on the M&A team, I know that M&A is notoriously one of the sweatiest practice groups.

I am under the impression that Milbank is a more humane place to work that will allow me to stay in BL longer and additionally PF gives a somewhat generalist training experience allowing exit ops to be broad ranging. Also Milbank's PF group is second to none.

Would I be crazy to give up the V10 return offer for a Milbank PF offer next summer?

Associate at a top PF shop hence anon. Do not go into PF to avoid M&A sweatshoppiness. It's pretty bad in PF too.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:33 am

Incoming 1L SA at a V10 hence anon, where I will most likely be trying for M&A work. While I'm grateful for the opportunity and excited to work on the M&A team, I know that M&A is notoriously one of the sweatiest practice groups.

I am under the impression that Milbank is a more humane place to work that will allow me to stay in BL longer and additionally PF gives a somewhat generalist training experience allowing exit ops to be broad ranging. Also Milbank's PF group is second to none.

Would I be crazy to give up the V10 return offer for a Milbank PF offer next summer?

Former Milbank PF associate here. No, you wouldn't be crazy. BL is BL, but Milbank PF is relatively humane and you get to do the most cutting-edge work in the space. I've seen former Milbank PF associates spin their experience to land purely generalist corporate in-house gigs at F500 companies, and you also get the benefit of being one of the small number of lawyers who can competently thrive at an in-house gig with a renewable energy company or bank renewable energy group. I'm currently in-house and Milbank associates (along with associates from some other top notch PF shops like Latham, Skadden, Orrick) are often top pick for open in-house positions in the project finance/renewable energy space.

One word of caution, however -- you're not guaranteed to get into the PF group at Milbank, and you're only a 1L at this point so you should be open to multiple practice groups. You'll rotate and they'll try to give you one of your top choices, but PF is one of the more popular practice groups.

Wait, do you have some kind of standing offer from Milbank? Or you’ve just plucked them out as an example of a good PF shop?

The standard advice around here is to “not chase lifestyle” since lifestyle is a meme / mirage / marketing gimmick in the hands of almost any NY-based firm in the V50. That’s doubly true when considering a firm like Milbank whose revenue per lawyer ($1.4M) is basically on par with whatever V10 firm you’ll be summering at — Milbank reaches parity by squeezing roughly the same number of billable hours out of its associates as the V10 firms. That said, you do have to acknowledge there are some material differences among practice areas (e.g., M&A vs. tax) and firms (Wachtell vs. everywhere else).

For what it’s worth, a close relative of mine spent nearly three decades as a corporate partner at Milbank. He was worked to the bone just as badly as any biglaw equity partner: cancelled/missed family vacations, getting home late after the kids are asleep, etc etc. You’re probably more interested in the junior associate experience but...

I’d say revisit this question after you’ve had the summer experience. (Also: why fixate on M&A? I hope you consider trying out some other practice groups as well.)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:08 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:33 am

Incoming 1L SA at a V10 hence anon, where I will most likely be trying for M&A work. While I'm grateful for the opportunity and excited to work on the M&A team, I know that M&A is notoriously one of the sweatiest practice groups.

I am under the impression that Milbank is a more humane place to work that will allow me to stay in BL longer and additionally PF gives a somewhat generalist training experience allowing exit ops to be broad ranging. Also Milbank's PF group is second to none.

Would I be crazy to give up the V10 return offer for a Milbank PF offer next summer?

Former Milbank PF associate here. No, you wouldn't be crazy. BL is BL, but Milbank PF is relatively humane and you get to do the most cutting-edge work in the space. I've seen former Milbank PF associates spin their experience to land purely generalist corporate in-house gigs at F500 companies, and you also get the benefit of being one of the small number of lawyers who can competently thrive at an in-house gig with a renewable energy company or bank renewable energy group. I'm currently in-house and Milbank associates (along with associates from some other top notch PF shops like Latham, Skadden, Orrick) are often top pick for open in-house positions in the project finance/renewable energy space.

One word of caution, however -- you're not guaranteed to get into the PF group at Milbank, and you're only a 1L at this point so you should be open to multiple practice groups. You'll rotate and they'll try to give you one of your top choices, but PF is one of the more popular practice groups.

As a different 1L interested in Milbanks PF, could you elaborate on how rotations get chosen? T10 with top 30% grades if that affects anything. Milbanks a top choice but only if I could get PF.

As a 2L, I chose Milbank for PF over v10. I didn't make this decision based on lifestyle. I genuinely want to work in PF. Obviously, there's no guarantee that I will be placed in PF, but I felt Milbank gave me the best chance to try it out. I also talked extensively to the PF partners and I have characteristics that they want in PF associates (bilingual, lived and worked abroad). I also left the door open with the v10 to interview for 3L if I didn't like my 2L firm.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:45 am

As a 2L, I chose Milbank for PF over v10. I didn't make this decision based on lifestyle. I genuinely want to work in PF. Obviously, there's no guarantee that I will be placed in PF, but I felt Milbank gave me the best chance to try it out. I also talked extensively to the PF partners and I have characteristics that they want in PF associates (bilingual, lived and worked abroad). I also left the door open with the v10 to interview for 3L if I didn't like my 2L firm.

also depending on which v10 you are talking about here, pure PF practice strength wise, Skadden and Latham would be on par with Milbank, and probs have better overall finance group

If you are convinced you want to do PF, then it could make some sense (however, see above poster about Skadden/Latham).

However, unless you are 100% sold on PF, I wouldn't turn down a NYC V10 for Milbank just because you MAY be interested in PF. Milbank is basically a two-trick pony (PF & Bankruptcy), so unless you want to do either of those, you're most likely better off elsewhere, especially a V20/V10. The breadth of strong practice groups at these other firms will give you the flexibility to find what you like and have good exit options should you want to exit biglaw.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:01 pm

If you are convinced you want to do PF, then it could make some sense (however, see above poster about Skadden/Latham).

However, unless you are 100% sold on PF, I wouldn't turn down a NYC V10 for Milbank just because you MAY be interested in PF. Milbank is basically a two-trick pony (PF & Bankruptcy), so unless you want to do either of those, you're most likely better off elsewhere, especially a V20/V10. The breadth of strong practice groups at these other firms will give you the flexibility to find what you like and have good exit options should you want to exit biglaw.

Appreciate the insight. I'm actually going to one of the two firms listed and I really like the people I've spoken to at the firm. That being said, is there really a difference in exit ops between Skadden/Latham vs. Milbank? I figured I could probably last longer in PF at Milbank compared to a notoriously sweaty shop like Skadden/Latham.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:01 pm

If you are convinced you want to do PF, then it could make some sense (however, see above poster about Skadden/Latham).

However, unless you are 100% sold on PF, I wouldn't turn down a NYC V10 for Milbank just because you MAY be interested in PF. Milbank is basically a two-trick pony (PF & Bankruptcy), so unless you want to do either of those, you're most likely better off elsewhere, especially a V20/V10. The breadth of strong practice groups at these other firms will give you the flexibility to find what you like and have good exit options should you want to exit biglaw.

Appreciate the insight. I'm actually going to one of the two firms listed and I really like the people I've spoken to at the firm. That being said, is there really a difference in exit ops between Skadden/Latham vs. Milbank? I figured I could probably last longer in PF at Milbank compared to a notoriously sweaty shop like Skadden/Latham.

No problem!

I'll defer to others about exit options out of either firm's PF group. If i had to guess, they are probably the same. I meant the exit options from most other groups would be much better at most V20/V10s.

Milbank mid-level here: PF is not as hard to get as has been implied unthread. It’s possible that was the case prior to the rotation program starting, but not anymore. Just rank it for summer and first year rotations, do good work and let the chips fall. Consistently, rotators who thought they were interested in projects (international, tangible things being built = easier sell to a law student v. something more esoteric) find a home in another group. By the time the process is over, virtually everyone who still wants projects can get it.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:01 pm

If you are convinced you want to do PF, then it could make some sense (however, see above poster about Skadden/Latham).

However, unless you are 100% sold on PF, I wouldn't turn down a NYC V10 for Milbank just because you MAY be interested in PF. Milbank is basically a two-trick pony (PF & Bankruptcy), so unless you want to do either of those, you're most likely better off elsewhere, especially a V20/V10. The breadth of strong practice groups at these other firms will give you the flexibility to find what you like and have good exit options should you want to exit biglaw.

Appreciate the insight. I'm actually going to one of the two firms listed and I really like the people I've spoken to at the firm. That being said, is there really a difference in exit ops between Skadden/Latham vs. Milbank? I figured I could probably last longer in PF at Milbank compared to a notoriously sweaty shop like Skadden/Latham.

you can always lateral from Skadden/LW to Milbank or other nicer or more gentle firms if you can't stand it. Also doubt Milbank PF practice would be significantly less sweatshop-y than Skadden or LW

How are S&C, Davis Polk, and Simpson’s PF groups compared to Milbank’s? They are ranked pretty high in Vault practice area ranking (fwiw, someone suggested Vault ranking is pretty accurate for PF).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:01 pm

If you are convinced you want to do PF, then it could make some sense (however, see above poster about Skadden/Latham).

However, unless you are 100% sold on PF, I wouldn't turn down a NYC V10 for Milbank just because you MAY be interested in PF. Milbank is basically a two-trick pony (PF & Bankruptcy), so unless you want to do either of those, you're most likely better off elsewhere, especially a V20/V10. The breadth of strong practice groups at these other firms will give you the flexibility to find what you like and have good exit options should you want to exit biglaw.

Appreciate the insight. I'm actually going to one of the two firms listed and I really like the people I've spoken to at the firm. That being said, is there really a difference in exit ops between Skadden/Latham vs. Milbank? I figured I could probably last longer in PF at Milbank compared to a notoriously sweaty shop like Skadden/Latham.

you can always lateral from Skadden/LW to Milbank or other nicer or more gentle firms if you can't stand it. Also doubt Milbank PF practice would be significantly less sweatshop-y than Skadden or LW

Definitely fair. My plan was to grind as hard as possible first two years to establish reliable reputation then as a 3rd yr+ start to manage down my workflows by doing work for good partners and trying to start family/manage other aspects of my life. And if I lateral I'd have to rebuild the professional image.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:34 pm

Milbank mid-level here: PF is not as hard to get as has been implied unthread. It’s possible that was the case prior to the rotation program starting, but not anymore. Just rank it for summer and first year rotations, do good work and let the chips fall. Consistently, rotators who thought they were interested in projects (international, tangible things being built = easier sell to a law student v. something more esoteric) find a home in another group. By the time the process is over, virtually everyone who still wants projects can get it.

Wonder if you have any insight into the PF group's culture w/r/t facetime and WFH pre-COVID.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:01 pm

If you are convinced you want to do PF, then it could make some sense (however, see above poster about Skadden/Latham).

However, unless you are 100% sold on PF, I wouldn't turn down a NYC V10 for Milbank just because you MAY be interested in PF. Milbank is basically a two-trick pony (PF & Bankruptcy), so unless you want to do either of those, you're most likely better off elsewhere, especially a V20/V10. The breadth of strong practice groups at these other firms will give you the flexibility to find what you like and have good exit options should you want to exit biglaw.

Appreciate the insight. I'm actually going to one of the two firms listed and I really like the people I've spoken to at the firm. That being said, is there really a difference in exit ops between Skadden/Latham vs. Milbank? I figured I could probably last longer in PF at Milbank compared to a notoriously sweaty shop like Skadden/Latham.

No problem!

I'll defer to others about exit options out of either firm's PF group. If i had to guess, they are probably the same. I meant the exit options from most other groups would be much better at most V20/V10s.

I don't think exit options are going to be worse at Milbank than at "V20" firms like White & Case or Ropes & Gray.