Is Cravath good? Forum

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.
I should also add, not only are circuit clerkship chasers insufferable, but so is just about everyone in the biglaw world. Also insufferable are Cravath-types that think they're better than Latham types and then get quiet when an WLRK person walks into the room. Same for V20 people who look down on V100 people. Or the clueless law student who only looks at Vault, chooses Skadden, and then looks down on Munger or Williams & Connolly. Or the Williams & Connolly gal who looks down on the Skadden guy for choosing corporate work (who will ironically probably have better exit options because it's not lit). Same for the lawyers who opposed diploma privilege during the pandemic because they think that bar admission is some sort of brass ring. Prestige hogging is everywhere, top to bottom. What an insufferable profession. Sorry for the pointless rant.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:52 pm

Delete.

ExpOriental

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by ExpOriental » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.
I should also add, not only are circuit clerkship chasers insufferable, but so is just about everyone in the biglaw world. Also insufferable are Cravath-types that think they're better than Latham types and then get quiet when an WLRK person walks into the room. Same for V20 people who look down on V100 people. Or the clueless law student who only looks at Vault, chooses Skadden, and then looks down on Munger or Williams & Connolly. Or the Williams & Connolly gal who looks down on the Skadden guy for choosing corporate work (who will ironically probably have better exit options because it's not lit). Same for the lawyers who opposed diploma privilege during the pandemic because they think that bar admission is some sort of brass ring. Prestige hogging is everywhere, top to bottom. What an insufferable profession. Sorry for the pointless rant.
I sense a Munger TTTolles pleb who's upset they couldn't hack it at K&L Gate$$$

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:57 pm

ExpOriental wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.
I should also add, not only are circuit clerkship chasers insufferable, but so is just about everyone in the biglaw world. Also insufferable are Cravath-types that think they're better than Latham types and then get quiet when an WLRK person walks into the room. Same for V20 people who look down on V100 people. Or the clueless law student who only looks at Vault, chooses Skadden, and then looks down on Munger or Williams & Connolly. Or the Williams & Connolly gal who looks down on the Skadden guy for choosing corporate work (who will ironically probably have better exit options because it's not lit). Same for the lawyers who opposed diploma privilege during the pandemic because they think that bar admission is some sort of brass ring. Prestige hogging is everywhere, top to bottom. What an insufferable profession. Sorry for the pointless rant.
I sense a Munger TTTolles pleb who's upset they couldn't hack it at K&L Gate$$$
You caught me!

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:03 pm

I think comparing to Cravath to the likes of Kellogg or Susman is just ridiculous, especially since OP was mainly asking about why people often choose other NYC [corporate] shops (e.g. S&C, DPW) over Cravath. I think Cravath is still up there in the corporate sphere, obviously a bit below WLRK. But it still retains a level of freakish neuroticism (what the firm calls "dedication to excellence" or whatever) among its associates that makes it stand out from peer firms. Whether you buy into that obsession with perfectionism or think the "Wachtell-hours-without-Wachtell-pay" setup is a scam is a personal preference, but I do think Cravath is a bit different from, say Paul Weiss or Debevoise. Also, isn't Cravath super old school as well - in dress code/offices/etc.? That might play a role in why a lot of younger law students gravitate to other firms.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.
agreed, all good points! hair-splitting was probably not the right term there, just think it's important to keep things in perspective and call out that beyond a certain point it becomes a question of like... who are you really trying to impress? but yes, agreed.
Agree with this 100%. That's why people need to have non-lawyer friends. Literally no one else cares. However, I do relish it when Cravath wannabes' preferred weapon--undeserved prestige and irrational chest thumping--is turned against them. :evil:

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.

Completely agree that the circuit clerk world is a whole other level of snobbishness - like, "Srinivasan clerk looking down at a "normal" D.C. Circuit clerk" level :D

To OP's point though, I think Cravath still manages to command such an "air" because the firm actively encourages the dissemination of a "the law is my life and I'm not scared to say it" mantra. Like, you need a certain type of person to be willing to work at a place that someone above called a "diluted Wachtell" - work insane hours and get paid like everyone else. That might not necessarily translate into prestige like how circuit clerks define it (e.g. "cutting-edge" work in front of SCOTUS), but it definitely has built up a formidable aura of "that's where the masochists go." People go there actively knowing they will have no life and still only get paid $190K like a V50 or V100. That alone deserves some grudging respect or admiration...(???) LOL. Maybe that's the "air" O is referring to. The "air" of perfectionist workaholics.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:18 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.

Completely agree that the circuit clerk world is a whole other level of snobbishness - like, "Srinivasan clerk looking down at a "normal" D.C. Circuit clerk" level :D
Ahhhh it never ends! Just go to Dentons and tell your friends that you work at the world's biggest law firm. End this madness!

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.
Also insufferable are Cravath-types that think they're better than Latham types and then get quiet when an WLRK person walks into the room.
Or the WLRK type who gets quiet when someone who works in a regional firm walks in and starts talking about how he has time to focus on what matters in his life, like family.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:08 pm
Taking 10% but dipping into the top 35% who will be a better fit based on a comprehensive review is by definition more selective than taking everyone within the 25-30% threshold.

At my school you were basically guaranteed a CB for both csm and s&c if you were top 40-50%; skadden was weirdly selective in that they would say top 10% was required but then you'd hear about people with top 15-20% but hardcore military experience or being legislative aides receiving CBs. Absolutely felt harder to get offers with Skadden, LW, KE and PW at my school than with SC/CSM because the CB was a real callback rather than a formality.
Agreed in general, but at my T6, S&C absolutely does have a non-negligible higher GPA cutoff than CSM. Last year, CSM made offers to 2.5x as many students outside the top 40% as S&C did, and its offerees are far more likely to be outside the top 10%. The academic profiles of the S&C admits were very noticeably stronger.

That being said, in terms of number of offers from number of screeners, CSM was overall twice as "selective."

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:01 pm
I think there's a kernel of truth in CSM selecting for (and 2Ls self-selecting into) a more 'Type A' / intense personality and culture. It's not off-putting, but it's there. That said, it's very easy to overstate the differences: there's of course nerdy-withdrawn types at CSM and intense-brash types at DPW, etc. Culture and fit should be part of the equation when you choose a firm, but IMO it should take a backseat to the more tangible things like assignment/staffing systems, practice areas, etc.

So, CSM's culture is "intense-brash?"

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:27 pm
Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.
Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:27 pm
Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.
Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here.
Instant confirmation of everything previous posters said about the way Cravath lawyers perceive themselves. Much harder to get into a Covington DC or GDC DC (let alone Bartlitt Beck or Kellogg or something), but people in the latter don't run around talking like this all the time.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:13 pm

I feel like there really isn't much of a difference between CSM and the rest of the NYC V10 tbh. At my T6, the vibe I got was that CSM and S&C were probably the hardest to get (outside of Wachtell), but that the rest of the NYC V10 (DPW, STB, Debevoise, Cleary, PW, etc.) were almost as hard to obtain.

I'm not too familiar with markets outside of NYC, so I'll defer on that front.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:03 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here.
Instant confirmation of everything previous posters said about the way Cravath lawyers perceive themselves. Much harder to get into a Covington DC or GDC DC (let alone Bartlitt Beck or Kellogg or something), but people in the latter don't run around talking like this all the time.
LOL seconded that that post is emblematic of what Cravath thinks of itself. So the firm itself isn't horrible but it's that kind of attitude that rubs everyone the wrong way. It's a FINE firm; but it's not as great as it thinks it is. FWIW Cravath hires straight P from Harvard, and definitely dips to median.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:27 pm
Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.
Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.
Wholeheartedly disagree with this, ha. I am ex-Cravath and I left because of the bolded, among other more troubling reasons. IMO the firm is toxic. It strikes me as though this person is a fairly junior person who hasn't been run through some of the firm's bigger cases. Perhaps, are you LP or LP-adjacent?

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Elston Gunn » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:57 pm

"Is Cravath Good" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:48 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:03 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here.
Instant confirmation of everything previous posters said about the way Cravath lawyers perceive themselves. Much harder to get into a Covington DC or GDC DC (let alone Bartlitt Beck or Kellogg or something), but people in the latter don't run around talking like this all the time.
LOL seconded that that post is emblematic of what Cravath thinks of itself. So the firm itself isn't horrible but it's that kind of attitude that rubs everyone the wrong way. It's a FINE firm; but it's not as great as it thinks it is. FWIW Cravath hires straight P from Harvard, and definitely dips to median.
Ding ding ding! We've got a winner! This right here sums it up.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:08 pm
Taking 10% but dipping into the top 35% who will be a better fit based on a comprehensive review is by definition more selective than taking everyone within the 25-30% threshold.

At my school you were basically guaranteed a CB for both csm and s&c if you were top 40-50%; skadden was weirdly selective in that they would say top 10% was required but then you'd hear about people with top 15-20% but hardcore military experience or being legislative aides receiving CBs. Absolutely felt harder to get offers with Skadden, LW, KE and PW at my school than with SC/CSM because the CB was a real callback rather than a formality.
Agreed in general, but at my T6, S&C absolutely does have a non-negligible higher GPA cutoff than CSM. Last year, CSM made offers to 2.5x as many students outside the top 40% as S&C did, and its offerees are far more likely to be outside the top 10%. The academic profiles of the S&C admits were very noticeably stronger.

That being said, in terms of number of offers from number of screeners, CSM was overall twice as "selective."

S&C is more selective than CSM for the T-6, but not from other schools lower ranked. S&C seems willing to hire like the top 25% of students in the T30 almost but won't dip that much lower than that even at CLS or something, even though Cravath will. The effect of this is that the CLS student thinks S&C is more selective and the GW law student thinks Cravath is more selective.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:49 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Is it even that prestigious, though? Maybe among the NYC corporate crowd, but at least for litigation, the smartest students go to top appellate practices in DC or elite boutiques. Using circuit clerkships as a rough (and flawed) measure of talent and prestige, the Cravath lit associate roster falls way behind these other shops. Like no one at Susman or Kellogg will be remotely impressed just because someone worked at Cravath.
this is veering quite far into hair-splitting territory imo. there are always going to be more prestigious positions. is Cravath the MOST tippy top prestigious? no. is it good? yeah lol
I don't disagree, but I guess I was referring to OP's talk about "an air" around Cravath. Among the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world, Cravath carries no such air. By the way, I think the prestige-hogging circuit clerk world is insufferable, but that's a different discussion. But is Cravath a "good" firm? Of course, it's a great firm.

Also not sure this is really hair-splitting. Cravath's a good firm but it doesn't really carry any wow factor among the circuit clerk class. Again, not defending the circuit clerk/feeder chasing class, they're pretty annoying if anything.
I should also add, not only are circuit clerkship chasers insufferable, but so is just about everyone in the biglaw world. Also insufferable are Cravath-types that think they're better than Latham types and then get quiet when an WLRK person walks into the room. Same for V20 people who look down on V100 people. Or the clueless law student who only looks at Vault, chooses Skadden, and then looks down on Munger or Williams & Connolly. Or the Williams & Connolly gal who looks down on the Skadden guy for choosing corporate work (who will ironically probably have better exit options because it's not lit). Same for the lawyers who opposed diploma privilege during the pandemic because they think that bar admission is some sort of brass ring. Prestige hogging is everywhere, top to bottom. What an insufferable profession. Sorry for the pointless rant.
Once you get past the quasi douchey tone, I am so all about this post.

Here’s the thing that you junior associates and 2Ls and 3Ls don’t get. In the real world, your Dpw isn’t that much better than your Morgan Lewis. It just isn’t. I’m sorry to burst a thousand bubbles but once you land a firm that pays market and services a bunch of fortune 100 clients, it’s all interchangeable. The reality is that prestige has no intrinsic value when you get to this level. If it’s important, it’s only extrinsically valuable because of the differences in exit options to which it leads. But here’s the thing: it usually doesn’t. Sure you’ll find a few anecdotal differences, but in the broad scheme, once you hit market biglaw then you hit market biglaw. If you were ever going to land a so-called unicorn gig, then you going to cravath versus Cooley just doesn’t make a difference.

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:45 am

Also lol at all the Cravath-apologists saying "hey it's not fair to compare us to firms that are actually better than us." If you're going to strut around acting like Mr. Big Shot all the time, be ready to play in the major leagues. But echoing above post, none of this matters anyway.

Iowahawk

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Iowahawk » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:08 pm
+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!
Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:27 pm
Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.
Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.
I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

Lawschool2021

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Lawschool2021 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:14 am

Does anyone know about the employment stats for those who graduate from the Georgetown Law LLM Program in Securities and Financial Reg?

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Re: Is Cravath good?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:45 am
Also lol at all the Cravath-apologists saying "hey it's not fair to compare us to firms that are actually better than us." If you're going to strut around acting like Mr. Big Shot all the time, be ready to play in the major leagues. But echoing above post, none of this matters anyway.
As an S&C associate, I can confidently say CSM and S&C associates prolly deserve to be knocked down a peg big time.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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