Is Cravath good? Forum

[parkslope]

Jennifer Conway (Exec Comp) leaves for DPW. Cue more partner departures??

At cravath. Found this surprising given that Conway was the second most senior exec comp partner. If this has anything to do with changing the comp structure, I would guess that at least the specialist groups will lose more partners.

Not surprised that specialist partners would leave after the lockstep change, but agree with you that it's a bit surprising that Conway is leaving, since she's been here for so long. Would have expected Bobby or Katz to leave before her. And my guess is it's definitely related to comp. The partnership probably did some calculations and Conway got a glimpse of what her partnership draw is going to look like next year and decided to jump ship. There were some rumors that Kara Mungovan jumped to Davis Polk back in November because she had insight into the ultimate move away from pure lockstep and knew her comp would go down. So much for the firm anointing partners who aren't "motivated purely by money."

Why would she leave a firm that is doing away with lockstep to go to another firm that has already done away with lockstep? I don't understand how specialist Cravath partners will make more money at other firms. I get that specialists will make less at Cravath now, but that will also be the case at DPW, right?

[ExpOriental]

Jennifer Conway (Exec Comp) leaves for DPW. Cue more partner departures??

At cravath. Found this surprising given that Conway was the second most senior exec comp partner. If this has anything to do with changing the comp structure, I would guess that at least the specialist groups will lose more partners.

Not surprised that specialist partners would leave after the lockstep change, but agree with you that it's a bit surprising that Conway is leaving, since she's been here for so long. Would have expected Bobby or Katz to leave before her. And my guess is it's definitely related to comp. The partnership probably did some calculations and Conway got a glimpse of what her partnership draw is going to look like next year and decided to jump ship. There were some rumors that Kara Mungovan jumped to Davis Polk back in November because she had insight into the ultimate move away from pure lockstep and knew her comp would go down. So much for the firm anointing partners who aren't "motivated purely by money."

Why would she leave a firm that is doing away with lockstep to go to another firm that has already done away with lockstep? I don't understand how specialist Cravath partners will make more money at other firms. I get that specialists will make less at Cravath now, but that will also be the case at DPW, right?

By negotiating higher comp at the new firm...

I really feel like you could've pieced this one together on your own. Note that DPW's reported PPEP is like 50% higher than a Cravath's at this point.

[parkslope]

Jennifer Conway (Exec Comp) leaves for DPW. Cue more partner departures??

At cravath. Found this surprising given that Conway was the second most senior exec comp partner. If this has anything to do with changing the comp structure, I would guess that at least the specialist groups will lose more partners.

Not surprised that specialist partners would leave after the lockstep change, but agree with you that it's a bit surprising that Conway is leaving, since she's been here for so long. Would have expected Bobby or Katz to leave before her. And my guess is it's definitely related to comp. The partnership probably did some calculations and Conway got a glimpse of what her partnership draw is going to look like next year and decided to jump ship. There were some rumors that Kara Mungovan jumped to Davis Polk back in November because she had insight into the ultimate move away from pure lockstep and knew her comp would go down. So much for the firm anointing partners who aren't "motivated purely by money."

Why would she leave a firm that is doing away with lockstep to go to another firm that has already done away with lockstep? I don't understand how specialist Cravath partners will make more money at other firms. I get that specialists will make less at Cravath now, but that will also be the case at DPW, right?

By negotiating higher comp at the new firm...

I really feel like you could've pieced this one together on your own. Note that DPW's reported PPEP is like 50% higher than a Cravath's at this point.

Right, but specialists aren't going to get huge compensation packages at any firm because they don't bring in huge clients on their own or quarterback huge deals. If it's a matter of DPW just having more money to throw around than Cravath because of its scale and associate leverage, that makes sense.

[Anonymous User]

Jennifer Conway (Exec Comp) leaves for DPW. Cue more partner departures??

At cravath. Found this surprising given that Conway was the second most senior exec comp partner. If this has anything to do with changing the comp structure, I would guess that at least the specialist groups will lose more partners.

Not surprised that specialist partners would leave after the lockstep change, but agree with you that it's a bit surprising that Conway is leaving, since she's been here for so long. Would have expected Bobby or Katz to leave before her. And my guess is it's definitely related to comp. The partnership probably did some calculations and Conway got a glimpse of what her partnership draw is going to look like next year and decided to jump ship. There were some rumors that Kara Mungovan jumped to Davis Polk back in November because she had insight into the ultimate move away from pure lockstep and knew her comp would go down. So much for the firm anointing partners who aren't "motivated purely by money."

Why would she leave a firm that is doing away with lockstep to go to another firm that has already done away with lockstep? I don't understand how specialist Cravath partners will make more money at other firms. I get that specialists will make less at Cravath now, but that will also be the case at DPW, right?

By negotiating higher comp at the new firm...

I really feel like you could've pieced this one together on your own. Note that DPW's reported PPEP is like 50% higher than a Cravath's at this point.

Right, but specialists aren't going to get huge compensation packages at any firm because they don't bring in huge clients on their own or quarterback huge deals. If it's a matter of DPW just having more money to throw around than Cravath because of its scale and associate leverage, that makes sense.

Depends on what you consider huge compensation packages, I guess. And it’s also possible that DPW has a particular need and so are willing to compensate more highly (e.g., someone who understands tax for tech and media deals, to support Comcast, while maybe Cravath is doing less CBS/Viacom work now - not saying that happened, just an example).

I’m not sure pure lockstep works when Kirkland seems to have dragged everyone to the bottom, but different firms have different needs at different times and so pay accordingly. Although I’m an M&A person, I think it’s daft to undervalue specialists in tax, benefits, IP, etc just because they might not have originated a deal. Often it’s their work that’s responsible for keeping clients on the roster as much as anything the transactional folks do. There are firms that get this, and so do pay these specialists meaningful chunks of cash.

As another example, PW enticed Rob Holo to join them from STB not long ago. Both firms are modified lockstep, but it’s well known that PW base partner draws, like for like, are higher than at STB (or they used to be). Plus Holo had expertise that Barshay felt was lacking at the firm. I wouldn’t be surprised if Holo made 1m+ more a year after the move.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath associate here. I think that what several others have said is right: it’s about whether you want to rotate. I personally came here over DPW because I liked the idea of the rotation system because I was genuinely unsure about what kind of corporate practice I wanted. If I’d wanted to only do one thing and knew that, I’d have gone elsewhere.

I don’t think the culture is really any better or worse than your average top NY big law firm based on talking to law school friends at other V10s who work as much or more than I do and also work for toxic assholes.

I also do think (hope?) that there is some marginal (if unearned) prestige bump when looking at exit options. Whether or not Cravath is really any “better” than DPW/S&C/STB is kind of an irrelevant question, it’s really more do the people who will hire at exit ops think that it’s better. In any event, they’re all miserable places that will work you to death if you let them so you might as well pick the least miserable one with the best ex ante setup for your inevitable exit.

I work at a NYC V10 that has a rotation system, but it sounds like it's much more structured than the one at Cravath, where I heard people rotate forever. If that's correct, I'm a little confused as to the benefits of that. My firm semi-regularly hires laterals from Cravath, and the feeling is that those laterals need a little extra time to get up to speed on substance because their experience was so mixed prior to getting here.

[Anonymous User]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

By "in trouble" do you mean, like, their 2035 PPP might be $10M instead of $11M?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Cravath is still good but that doesn’t mean you should work there. It’s a tough environment, and the rotation system is kind of dumb IMO

[Anonymous User]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

Hochenberg and Zoubek (who left to FF last year) worked very closely together on a lot of deals so I suppose it was only a matter of time before she made the jump as well...

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is still good but that doesn’t mean you should work there. It’s a tough environment, and the rotation system is kind of dumb IMO

I mean, is it really any better or worse than peer firms like DPW, S&C or PW? If you make partner, you will need to work like an absolute dog to make partner, will hate your life, destroy your health, and ruin your marriage. On the other hand you will be rich have a lot of prestige.

To me it is an obviously busted life, and only an idiot would want it, but for those who do I don't see much daylight between these firms.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Cravath is still good but that doesn’t mean you should work there. It’s a tough environment, and the rotation system is kind of dumb IMO

I mean, is it really any better or worse than peer firms like DPW, S&C or PW? If you make partner, you will need to work like an absolute dog to make partner, will hate your life, destroy your health, and ruin your marriage. On the other hand you will be rich have a lot of prestige.

To me it is an obviously busted life, and only an idiot would want it, but for those who do I don't see much daylight between these firms.

May be slightly tougher than peer firms, but practice group and which partners/seniors you work with are bigger factors than the firm.

I’m not saying nobody should work there. I’m just saying people shouldn’t necessarily sign up just because it’s a top ranked prestigious firm. You might have a better career being a star at Paul Hastings versus burning out at Cravath

[Anonymous User]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

Hochenberg and Zoubek (who left to FF last year) worked very closely together on a lot of deals so I suppose it was only a matter of time before she made the jump as well...

It does seem to be kind of odd that so many partners have left SINCE the change from pure lockstep to modified lockstep (at least 5 since November/December 2021). Pretty sure that's more partners lost in 6-7 months than in the preceding 2-3 years. Maybe the firm didn't make meaningful enough changes?? Since its compensation system should now be similar to DPW, STB, S&C, and PW, you'd assume a similar amount of lateraling/poaching from each of these firms. But it's the Cravath partners who really seem to be itching to jump ship and make bank lol. So much for electing partners who are "faithful" to the culture of collaboration that pure lockstep supposedly fosters. But like someone said above, I'm sure Cravath will be more than ok in terms of profits...

[Anonymous User]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

Hochenberg and Zoubek (who left to FF last year) worked very closely together on a lot of deals so I suppose it was only a matter of time before she made the jump as well...

It does seem to be kind of odd that so many partners have left SINCE the change from pure lockstep to modified lockstep (at least 5 since November/December 2021). Pretty sure that's more partners lost in 6-7 months than in the preceding 2-3 years. Maybe the firm didn't make meaningful enough changes?? Since its compensation system should now be similar to DPW, STB, S&C, and PW, you'd assume a similar amount of lateraling/poaching from each of these firms. But it's the Cravath partners who really seem to be itching to jump ship and make bank lol. So much for electing partners who are "faithful" to the culture of collaboration that pure lockstep supposedly fosters. But like someone said above, I'm sure Cravath will be more than ok in terms of profits...

I think it makes sense because after lockstep ends some people will get a raise and other people will fall behind. If things don't shake out for you, may as well see what you are worth on the market.

[Sackboy]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

Hochenberg and Zoubek (who left to FF last year) worked very closely together on a lot of deals so I suppose it was only a matter of time before she made the jump as well...

It does seem to be kind of odd that so many partners have left SINCE the change from pure lockstep to modified lockstep (at least 5 since November/December 2021). Pretty sure that's more partners lost in 6-7 months than in the preceding 2-3 years. Maybe the firm didn't make meaningful enough changes?? Since its compensation system should now be similar to DPW, STB, S&C, and PW, you'd assume a similar amount of lateraling/poaching from each of these firms. But it's the Cravath partners who really seem to be itching to jump ship and make bank lol. So much for electing partners who are "faithful" to the culture of collaboration that pure lockstep supposedly fosters. But like someone said above, I'm sure Cravath will be more than ok in terms of profits...

These could also have been the faithful partners who were pissed at the change and decided if Cravath is going to sell out they might as well go cash the biggest checks they have elsewhere.

[BigLawPartner]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... ading-Team

Despite dropping lock step, Cravath has lost two young m&a partners recently (Allison Wein and now Jenny Hochenberg). On top of all the past departures, is anyone worried Cravath could be in trouble long term?

Hochenberg and Zoubek (who left to FF last year) worked very closely together on a lot of deals so I suppose it was only a matter of time before she made the jump as well...

It does seem to be kind of odd that so many partners have left SINCE the change from pure lockstep to modified lockstep (at least 5 since November/December 2021). Pretty sure that's more partners lost in 6-7 months than in the preceding 2-3 years. Maybe the firm didn't make meaningful enough changes?? Since its compensation system should now be similar to DPW, STB, S&C, and PW, you'd assume a similar amount of lateraling/poaching from each of these firms. But it's the Cravath partners who really seem to be itching to jump ship and make bank lol. So much for electing partners who are "faithful" to the culture of collaboration that pure lockstep supposedly fosters. But like someone said above, I'm sure Cravath will be more than ok in terms of profits...

I think it makes sense because after lockstep ends some people will get a raise and other people will fall behind. If things don't shake out for you, may as well see what you are worth on the market.

This is my assumption as well, that the partners who left after the move away from lockstep did not do well (or know they are not going to do well) in the new system and thus jumped, maybe for a little more money or maybe for the potential for more money down the road than they would likely get at Cravath. Also, when the new system shakes out, it's easier to see who is valued, and if you're not one of those valued under new the comp system, it can be a hit to the ego and also lets the rest of the partners who may not have already known that you aren't as valued as others. Thus you make the move while market perception may be greater than internal perception.