Nashville Salary Scale + Bonus Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anon from earlier. Won’t drop the full scale but Baker is not being cheap (compared to how Nashville firms used to play it) and clearly, a gauntlet has been thrown here. Nashville will hit Cravath in 2022.

Highly doubt this will happen in 2022. I know junior partners at some of the firms who are fuming right now because they’re now making less than senior associates. I’ve noticed that these smaller regional southern firms have bigger classes of junior/nonequity partners than other places. Unless they are willing to raise those salaries as well, I think it’ll be very hard for them to bump again to Cravath in 2022. Also, the rates couldn’t sustain that kind of bump.

You don’t have to believe something for it to be true lol. I didn’t say these baby firms would be the ones raising. I said the top of Nashville would match Cravath. A bunch of AmLaw firms (all the way to the top) have been salivating over Nashville for years, just waiting. What highly desirable summer or junior associate is going to walk away from 200+? I work in “the big 4” and I know people working AmLaw hours for non-AmLaw pay. The rates will come up. All partners here do is gripe about how low their rates are. There’s a lot of factors that will soon make the perfect storm.

I know many people in the Nashville large firms and work at a firm that would fit perfectly there. Based on what I know, the whole “everyone wants to open in Nashville” thing is overblown. That’s why the only biglaw firm with a presence there is K&L, which is arguably not even biglaw because it doesn’t pay market. More firms have set up shop in SLC and MIA.

Also, rates can’t go up much if they can’t be sustained. I’ve heard that K&L is already struggling with rates there. Plus, most of the major clients get insane discounts for their big ongoing matters. I know associates who bill out in the $200-300s/hr for some of their big healthcare clients.

I love Nashville and am excited that it’s finally getting with the times (it was paying $105k when I was comparing offers back in the day), but I think people/lawyers in Nashville have started to believe they are living in the next Austin, which isn’t the case.

I hope to be proven wrong, but unless Kirkland decides to set up shop in Nashville, I don’t see any firm with associates paying market there.

[musiccityboer]

Anon from earlier. Won’t drop the full scale but Baker is not being cheap (compared to how Nashville firms used to play it) and clearly, a gauntlet has been thrown here. Nashville will hit Cravath in 2022.

Highly doubt this will happen in 2022. I know junior partners at some of the firms who are fuming right now because they’re now making less than senior associates. I’ve noticed that these smaller regional southern firms have bigger classes of junior/nonequity partners than other places. Unless they are willing to raise those salaries as well, I think it’ll be very hard for them to bump again to Cravath in 2022. Also, the rates couldn’t sustain that kind of bump.

You don’t have to believe something for it to be true lol. I didn’t say these baby firms would be the ones raising. I said the top of Nashville would match Cravath. A bunch of AmLaw firms (all the way to the top) have been salivating over Nashville for years, just waiting. What highly desirable summer or junior associate is going to walk away from 200+? I work in “the big 4” and I know people working AmLaw hours for non-AmLaw pay. The rates will come up. All partners here do is gripe about how low their rates are. There’s a lot of factors that will soon make the perfect storm.

I know many people in the Nashville large firms and work at a firm that would fit perfectly there. Based on what I know, the whole “everyone wants to open in Nashville” thing is overblown. That’s why the only biglaw firm with a presence there is K&L, which is arguably not even biglaw because it doesn’t pay market. More firms have set up shop in SLC and MIA.

Also, rates can’t go up much if they can’t be sustained. I’ve heard that K&L is already struggling with rates there. Plus, most of the major clients get insane discounts for their big ongoing matters. I know associates who bill out in the $200-300s/hr for some of their big healthcare clients.

I love Nashville and am excited that it’s finally getting with the times (it was paying $105k when I was comparing offers back in the day), but I think people/lawyers in Nashville have started to believe they are living in the next Austin, which isn’t the case.

I hope to be proven wrong, but unless Kirkland decides to set up shop in Nashville, I don’t see any firm with associates paying market there.

Nashville as the next Austin seems reasonable to me. Same taxes, similar growth, lots of new business. Also BBS poached an associate (w/ a Jd/mba from H!) from WLRK. Smart money is moving to Nashville. (I mean, she did go to Harpeth Hell, but still)

[Anonymous User]

Anon from earlier. Won’t drop the full scale but Baker is not being cheap (compared to how Nashville firms used to play it) and clearly, a gauntlet has been thrown here. Nashville will hit Cravath in 2022.

Highly doubt this will happen in 2022. I know junior partners at some of the firms who are fuming right now because they’re now making less than senior associates. I’ve noticed that these smaller regional southern firms have bigger classes of junior/nonequity partners than other places. Unless they are willing to raise those salaries as well, I think it’ll be very hard for them to bump again to Cravath in 2022. Also, the rates couldn’t sustain that kind of bump.

You don’t have to believe something for it to be true lol. I didn’t say these baby firms would be the ones raising. I said the top of Nashville would match Cravath. A bunch of AmLaw firms (all the way to the top) have been salivating over Nashville for years, just waiting. What highly desirable summer or junior associate is going to walk away from 200+? I work in “the big 4” and I know people working AmLaw hours for non-AmLaw pay. The rates will come up. All partners here do is gripe about how low their rates are. There’s a lot of factors that will soon make the perfect storm.

I know many people in the Nashville large firms and work at a firm that would fit perfectly there. Based on what I know, the whole “everyone wants to open in Nashville” thing is overblown. That’s why the only biglaw firm with a presence there is K&L, which is arguably not even biglaw because it doesn’t pay market. More firms have set up shop in SLC and MIA.

Also, rates can’t go up much if they can’t be sustained. I’ve heard that K&L is already struggling with rates there. Plus, most of the major clients get insane discounts for their big ongoing matters. I know associates who bill out in the $200-300s/hr for some of their big healthcare clients.

I love Nashville and am excited that it’s finally getting with the times (it was paying $105k when I was comparing offers back in the day), but I think people/lawyers in Nashville have started to believe they are living in the next Austin, which isn’t the case.

I hope to be proven wrong, but unless Kirkland decides to set up shop in Nashville, I don’t see any firm with associates paying market there.

Nashville as the next Austin seems reasonable to me. Same taxes, similar growth, lots of new business. Also BBS poached an associate (w/ a Jd/mba from H!) from WLRK. Smart money is moving to Nashville. (I mean, she did go to Harpeth Hell, but still)

People have been saying Nashville is the next Austin for more than a decade now it seems. No other city will grow like Austin did, so it may be an unfair comparison.

Also, I’m not saying top tier talent isn’t going to go to Nashville (and calling it poaching here is interesting). There are tons of former V10 associates there. It’s a fun, affordable city. Many things to love about it.

[Anonymous User]

Anon from earlier. Won’t drop the full scale but Baker is not being cheap (compared to how Nashville firms used to play it) and clearly, a gauntlet has been thrown here. Nashville will hit Cravath in 2022.

Highly doubt this will happen in 2022. I know junior partners at some of the firms who are fuming right now because they’re now making less than senior associates. I’ve noticed that these smaller regional southern firms have bigger classes of junior/nonequity partners than other places. Unless they are willing to raise those salaries as well, I think it’ll be very hard for them to bump again to Cravath in 2022. Also, the rates couldn’t sustain that kind of bump.

You don’t have to believe something for it to be true lol. I didn’t say these baby firms would be the ones raising. I said the top of Nashville would match Cravath. A bunch of AmLaw firms (all the way to the top) have been salivating over Nashville for years, just waiting. What highly desirable summer or junior associate is going to walk away from 200+? I work in “the big 4” and I know people working AmLaw hours for non-AmLaw pay. The rates will come up. All partners here do is gripe about how low their rates are. There’s a lot of factors that will soon make the perfect storm.

I know many people in the Nashville large firms and work at a firm that would fit perfectly there. Based on what I know, the whole “everyone wants to open in Nashville” thing is overblown. That’s why the only biglaw firm with a presence there is K&L, which is arguably not even biglaw because it doesn’t pay market. More firms have set up shop in SLC and MIA.

Also, rates can’t go up much if they can’t be sustained. I’ve heard that K&L is already struggling with rates there. Plus, most of the major clients get insane discounts for their big ongoing matters. I know associates who bill out in the $200-300s/hr for some of their big healthcare clients.

I love Nashville and am excited that it’s finally getting with the times (it was paying $105k when I was comparing offers back in the day), but I think people/lawyers in Nashville have started to believe they are living in the next Austin, which isn’t the case.

I hope to be proven wrong, but unless Kirkland decides to set up shop in Nashville, I don’t see any firm with associates paying market there.

Firms are already paying market for virtual associates here. Big firms have more than enough work to sustain associates with work from other offices. K&L is not impressing anyone, not even itself. The arguments against are played out. Just wait and see.

[Anonymous User]

It's surprising that Bass still hasn't moved in response to Baker's year-end salary moves. Typically those decisions are made in a matter of hours or days (rather than weeks), especially as this is the time of year most associates (with their year-end bonuses in hand) are considering lateral opportunities. At this point, I wonder if Bass has just decided to relinquish its place as "market leader" in salaries among Nashville's original big four. If they still intend to make a move, it should be soon, unless Bass is fine risking additional associate departures in the short-term.

[The Lsat Airbender]

unless Bass is fine risking additional associate departures in the short-term.

NARRATOR: They were.

[Anonymous User]

It's surprising that Bass still hasn't moved in response to Baker's year-end salary moves. Typically those decisions are made in a matter of hours or days (rather than weeks), especially as this is the time of year most associates (with their year-end bonuses in hand) are considering lateral opportunities. At this point, I wonder if Bass has just decided to relinquish its place as "market leader" in salaries among Nashville's original big four. If they still intend to make a move, it should be soon, unless Bass is fine risking additional associate departures in the short-term.

The headhunters are already pointing out Bass isn't top of the market anymore, it has been a month so the moment has passed.

[Anonymous User]

It's surprising that Bass still hasn't moved in response to Baker's year-end salary moves. Typically those decisions are made in a matter of hours or days (rather than weeks), especially as this is the time of year most associates (with their year-end bonuses in hand) are considering lateral opportunities. At this point, I wonder if Bass has just decided to relinquish its place as "market leader" in salaries among Nashville's original big four. If they still intend to make a move, it should be soon, unless Bass is fine risking additional associate departures in the short-term.

The headhunters are already pointing out Bass isn't top of the market anymore, it has been a month so the moment has passed.

I haven't heard anyone else moving to match Baker.

[Jackslash]

Asking here as several Nashville attorneys have been posting — generally speaking what are actual hours billed looking like at the big 4 now? Any noticeable variance from one to the others?

[Anonymous User]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

[Anonymous User]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

[Anonymous User]

Anon from earlier. Won’t drop the full scale but Baker is not being cheap (compared to how Nashville firms used to play it) and clearly, a gauntlet has been thrown here. Nashville will hit Cravath in 2022.

Highly doubt this will happen in 2022. I know junior partners at some of the firms who are fuming right now because they’re now making less than senior associates. I’ve noticed that these smaller regional southern firms have bigger classes of junior/nonequity partners than other places. Unless they are willing to raise those salaries as well, I think it’ll be very hard for them to bump again to Cravath in 2022. Also, the rates couldn’t sustain that kind of bump.

You don’t have to believe something for it to be true lol. I didn’t say these baby firms would be the ones raising. I said the top of Nashville would match Cravath. A bunch of AmLaw firms (all the way to the top) have been salivating over Nashville for years, just waiting. What highly desirable summer or junior associate is going to walk away from 200+? I work in “the big 4” and I know people working AmLaw hours for non-AmLaw pay. The rates will come up. All partners here do is gripe about how low their rates are. There’s a lot of factors that will soon make the perfect storm.

I know many people in the Nashville large firms and work at a firm that would fit perfectly there. Based on what I know, the whole “everyone wants to open in Nashville” thing is overblown. That’s why the only biglaw firm with a presence there is K&L, which is arguably not even biglaw because it doesn’t pay market. More firms have set up shop in SLC and MIA.

Also, rates can’t go up much if they can’t be sustained. I’ve heard that K&L is already struggling with rates there. Plus, most of the major clients get insane discounts for their big ongoing matters. I know associates who bill out in the $200-300s/hr for some of their big healthcare clients.

I love Nashville and am excited that it’s finally getting with the times (it was paying $105k when I was comparing offers back in the day), but I think people/lawyers in Nashville have started to believe they are living in the next Austin, which isn’t the case.

I hope to be proven wrong, but unless Kirkland decides to set up shop in Nashville, I don’t see any firm with associates paying market there.

Nashville as the next Austin seems reasonable to me. Same taxes, similar growth, lots of new business. Also BBS poached an associate (w/ a Jd/mba from H!) from WLRK. Smart money is moving to Nashville. (I mean, she did go to Harpeth Hell, but still)

Every midsize market has people with elite credentials working in it because they don't care about money much and/or prefer the city and/or prefer the lifestyle. There are a decent number of recent SCOTUS clerks who practice in Ohio.

[Anonymous User]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

[Anonymous User]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Bass scale actually tops out at 260k for 8th year and bonuses are higher at the lower end and lower on the higher end depending on hours. Can confirm hours expectations.

[2013]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Bass scale actually tops out at 260k for 8th year and bonuses are higher at the lower end and lower on the higher end depending on hours. Can confirm hours expectations.

Very interesting then that there are people on here saying that Nashville will go to DPW, meaning it’ll have to pay 8th years more than $200k more than they’re paying them now.

[Anonymous User]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Bass scale actually tops out at 260k for 8th year and bonuses are higher at the lower end and lower on the higher end depending on hours. Can confirm hours expectations.

Very interesting then that there are people on here saying that Nashville will go to DPW, meaning it’ll have to pay 8th years more than $200k more than they’re paying them now.

Right. It’s very unlikely to happen. Even if market paying firms enter the market, it’s more likely the market will just stratify like Charlotte, Tampa, or Dallas.

[Spider2YBanana]

Nashville clients have gotten fat and happy on really cheap rates and really good legal work from BBS/Waller/Bradley. Those firms can't afford to match Cravath scale because their clients won't accept billing rates doubling.

[Anonymous User]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Bass scale actually tops out at 260k for 8th year and bonuses are higher at the lower end and lower on the higher end depending on hours. Can confirm hours expectations.

Very interesting then that there are people on here saying that Nashville will go to DPW, meaning it’ll have to pay 8th years more than $200k more than they’re paying them now.

Right. It’s very unlikely to happen. Even if market paying firms enter the market, it’s more likely the market will just stratify like Charlotte, Tampa, or Dallas.

I don't think the Nashville firms will raise to Cravath for the reason above, but I think that cuts in favor of the Nashville market being attractive for larger firms to come in and open satellite offices to service work for their main offices. Not too hard to poach people being overworked and underpaid

[Anonymous User]

Agreed … here for the poaching

[Anonymous User]

Asking here as several Nashville attorneys have been posting — generally speaking what are actual hours billed looking like at the big 4 now? Any noticeable variance from one to the others?

Generally speaking, associates at Bradley and Bass probably bill the most. Plenty of litigators bill 1800-2000. Corporate or healthcare at either bass or Bradley, it’s hard to not be 2000+. You’ll regularly see people on pace for / hitting 2000-2200/year in those groups at Bradley/Bass. Less common to see much above 2200 billables.

[2013]

Still no matches? Who would have thought the other three big 4 firms would get absolutely bodied by Baker... not to mention the difference from the national payscales.

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Bass scale actually tops out at 260k for 8th year and bonuses are higher at the lower end and lower on the higher end depending on hours. Can confirm hours expectations.

Very interesting then that there are people on here saying that Nashville will go to DPW, meaning it’ll have to pay 8th years more than $200k more than they’re paying them now.

Right. It’s very unlikely to happen. Even if market paying firms enter the market, it’s more likely the market will just stratify like Charlotte, Tampa, or Dallas.

I don't think the Nashville firms will raise to Cravath for the reason above, but I think that cuts in favor of the Nashville market being attractive for larger firms to come in and open satellite offices to service work for their main offices. Not too hard to poach people being overworked and underpaid

Do the Big 4 firms (plus K&L) have more than 100 corporate associates combined in Nashville? If not, firms wouldn’t waste time and resources opening up an office in Nashville. They’d probably just hire remote associates.

[Anonymous User]

Heard from a classmate going to Bradley that Bradley was at 180 before Baker moved to 185

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Bass scale actually tops out at 260k for 8th year and bonuses are higher at the lower end and lower on the higher end depending on hours. Can confirm hours expectations.

Very interesting then that there are people on here saying that Nashville will go to DPW, meaning it’ll have to pay 8th years more than $200k more than they’re paying them now.

Right. It’s very unlikely to happen. Even if market paying firms enter the market, it’s more likely the market will just stratify like Charlotte, Tampa, or Dallas.

I don't think the Nashville firms will raise to Cravath for the reason above, but I think that cuts in favor of the Nashville market being attractive for larger firms to come in and open satellite offices to service work for their main offices. Not too hard to poach people being overworked and underpaid

Do the Big 4 firms (plus K&L) have more than 100 corporate associates combined in Nashville? If not, firms wouldn’t waste time and resources opening up an office in Nashville. They’d probably just hire remote associates.

My back of the napkin math says right around 100. But yeah, that's what Kirkland has already been doing in Nashville and similar markets. Though a real market presence by a large firm paying real money could grab another handful of associates from elsewhere and summer associates who are currently scared off of Nashville due to the poor options. Atlanta outcompetes the market as-is due to pay, and even Birmingham picks up associates who might otherwise go to Nashville if the salary delta were larger.

[Jackslash]

Asking here as several Nashville attorneys have been posting — generally speaking what are actual hours billed looking like at the big 4 now? Any noticeable variance from one to the others?

Generally speaking, associates at Bradley and Bass probably bill the most. Plenty of litigators bill 1800-2000. Corporate or healthcare at either bass or Bradley, it’s hard to not be 2000+. You’ll regularly see people on pace for / hitting 2000-2200/year in those groups at Bradley/Bass. Less common to see much above 2200 billables.

Appreciate the insight -- have been curious if general / average billable expectations across practice areas & firms would be increasing alongside salaries

[Anonymous User]

Asking here as several Nashville attorneys have been posting — generally speaking what are actual hours billed looking like at the big 4 now? Any noticeable variance from one to the others?

1850-2100 is pretty common in the market. Some transactional associates north of 2200, but not too far above that number.

This is wrong. Bradley, like bass, is still at 170k for first years. The scale tops out at $240k for seventh years for both. If you’re transactional at either, you will easily bill 2000+ hours. Bonuses are not great (like 5k-40k depending on hours and seniority) at any of the big 4. Baker has historically not been lockstep after the first year, which is probably why nobody has felt pressured to jump yet to match.

Agreed. From what I have heard, Baker is lockstep for first three years, starting at 185. I am shocked that neither Bass nor Waller has moved. I am confident that when one of those two matches, the other will immediately match as well. Bradley has traditionally been slower to move and Baker is always last. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

If Baker is moving to 185, it’s because the writing is on the wall and they want to be proactive. Lawyers are so stuck on “this is the way it’s always been” they can’t see the obvious unfolding in front of them. At least one AmLaw firm has committed to a Nashville office and will announce in a few months. You can’t just work and keep your head down. You’ve got to keep up with market trends (or cross your fingers that your partner is and they’ll take you with them).

I think this is a solid observation. Many national firms are keeping an eye on Nashville but watching how the K&L experiment plays out, and it does not seem to be going well over there. As someone stated, most Nashville clients are not going to pay national rates for any type of legal work (with very few exceptions). Because this client base also has deep ties and loyalty to the Nashville big four, it leaves very little room for competitors to come in and get local clients. Regional firms like Stites, Frost, Burr, Nelson Mullins, and Maynard have all had very little success gaining traction here (Butler Snow was doing okay until it lost the WTM people to K&L). I would think national firms can continue to poach talent here without having to open an office, minimizing risk and costs.

Atlanta outcompetes the market as-is due to pay, and even Birmingham picks up associates who might otherwise go to Nashville if the salary delta were larger.

It is true that Atlanta firms pay more than Nashville firms and are higher in vault/prestige. However, my experience is that there isn't as much overlap in interest between the two cities as you would think. I don't know if things are different at T14 and especially the best southern law schools like UVA and Duke, but my experience at Vanderbilt and Emory (as well as regional state schools) is that most people who are looking for Atlanta are also looking in Charlotte, Dallas, and Houston, not Nashville. Some of this is probably due to the fact that Nashville firms are much more stringent on ties than firms in those other cities.

However, the observation about Birmingham is not correct. Starting salaries at the biggest firms in Bham are $130-135K and those scales top out around $190-205K. That is significantly less than the $170-185K in Nashville, even with cost of living factored in. My experience is that pretty much everyone working at large firms in Birmingham has significant Alabama ties. Over the past four or five years (since Nashville went to $140K) and dating back to the old days of split summers, I have never heard of a summer associate taking a Birmingham job over an equal Nashville firm. This is especially true now that Nashville has become a 1L city.

[Anonymous User]

Got an offer from Waller at $185k base for 1st year associate.

Does anyone know what average associate billable hours were last year for Big 4? Wondering how far above the minimum is being billed. Wondering about tax specifically, is it about the same as the other groups?