Salt Lake City Legal Market? Forum

[k_moreno]

The firm is also well-hedged against economic downturns at this point so nobody seems worried about a cooling market.

If nobody is worried, that's exactly when you should worry.

K&E is a much different firm than it was in 2008. Corporate is a far bigger share of the pie now, and in that crash corp associates were billing like 800 hours. It's going to take a lot more than Josh Sussberg to keep things going this time, and there are far more SPs to support.

BP and Deepwater Horizon were a massive windfall in 2010. They were literally hiring back associates that they had laid off just to work on that case. Maybe after the next crash there will be another massive environmental disaster for K&E to profit from, but I wouldn't call that a hedge.

Just a point of reference for the risk to corporate-heavy firms in recessions, WLRK had a PPP of 4.945M in 2007 and didn't hit that level again until 2014. Cravath was at 3.3M in 2007 and didn't get back there until 2012.

[Anonymous User]

The firm is also well-hedged against economic downturns at this point so nobody seems worried about a cooling market.

If nobody is worried, that's exactly when you should worry.

K&E is a much different firm than it was in 2008. Corporate is a far bigger share of the pie now, and in that crash corp associates were billing like 800 hours. It's going to take a lot more than Josh Sussberg to keep things going this time, and there are far more SPs to support.

BP and Deepwater Horizon were a massive windfall in 2010. They were literally hiring back associates that they had laid off just to work on that case. Maybe after the next crash there will be another massive environmental disaster for K&E to profit from, but I wouldn't call that a hedge.

Just a point of reference for the risk to corporate-heavy firms in recessions, WLRK had a PPP of 4.945M in 2007 and didn't hit that level again until 2014. Cravath was at 3.3M in 2007 and didn't get back there until 2012.

Agree with this. The K&E "hedge" is massively oversold. If it is a black swan event, then yes, K&E RX will have enough work to fuel the rest of the firm (think we saw this during the initial covid lockdowns). But if a gradual cooling, where not everyone is rushing to restructure but just trying to hang on and wait it out, there will be a bunch of bodies at K&E with nothing to do.

[k_moreno]

The firm is also well-hedged against economic downturns at this point so nobody seems worried about a cooling market.

If nobody is worried, that's exactly when you should worry.

K&E is a much different firm than it was in 2008. Corporate is a far bigger share of the pie now, and in that crash corp associates were billing like 800 hours. It's going to take a lot more than Josh Sussberg to keep things going this time, and there are far more SPs to support.

BP and Deepwater Horizon were a massive windfall in 2010. They were literally hiring back associates that they had laid off just to work on that case. Maybe after the next crash there will be another massive environmental disaster for K&E to profit from, but I wouldn't call that a hedge.

Just a point of reference for the risk to corporate-heavy firms in recessions, WLRK had a PPP of 4.945M in 2007 and didn't hit that level again until 2014. Cravath was at 3.3M in 2007 and didn't get back there until 2012.

Agree with this. The K&E "hedge" is massively oversold. If it is a black swan event, then yes, K&E RX will have enough work to fuel the rest of the firm (think we saw this during the initial covid lockdowns). But if a gradual cooling, where not everyone is rushing to restructure but just trying to hang on and wait it out, there will be a bunch of bodies at K&E with nothing to do.

My recollection, and if any of you are old enough perhaps you can remind me, is that the financial crisis played out with a weird delay -- house prices peaked in 2006 and started to crumble in 2007Q2. Capital markets started to freeze up in late 2007 (corporate spreads and the TED started rising then and there was also the quant meltdown in HF space) and then it took another year before things really collapsed and bankruptcies started to get moving.

The M&A peak was 2007Q2. Q3 and Q4 were lower by half (link). But then the stock market didn't crash until late 2008.

So if you look at bankruptcies, they didn't pick up until well after M&A peaked.

The other thing to remember is that K&E did lay off a bunch of associates and also got rid of underperforming SPs (which they still do from time to time), along with delaying starts for first-years, etc.

[Anonymous User]

The firm is also well-hedged against economic downturns at this point so nobody seems worried about a cooling market.

If nobody is worried, that's exactly when you should worry.

K&E is a much different firm than it was in 2008. Corporate is a far bigger share of the pie now, and in that crash corp associates were billing like 800 hours. It's going to take a lot more than Josh Sussberg to keep things going this time, and there are far more SPs to support.

BP and Deepwater Horizon were a massive windfall in 2010. They were literally hiring back associates that they had laid off just to work on that case. Maybe after the next crash there will be another massive environmental disaster for K&E to profit from, but I wouldn't call that a hedge.

Just a point of reference for the risk to corporate-heavy firms in recessions, WLRK had a PPP of 4.945M in 2007 and didn't hit that level again until 2014. Cravath was at 3.3M in 2007 and didn't get back there until 2012.

Agree with this. The K&E "hedge" is massively oversold. If it is a black swan event, then yes, K&E RX will have enough work to fuel the rest of the firm (think we saw this during the initial covid lockdowns). But if a gradual cooling, where not everyone is rushing to restructure but just trying to hang on and wait it out, there will be a bunch of bodies at K&E with nothing to do.

My recollection, and if any of you are old enough perhaps you can remind me, is that the financial crisis played out with a weird delay -- house prices peaked in 2006 and started to crumble in 2007Q2. Capital markets started to freeze up in late 2007 (corporate spreads and the TED started rising then and there was also the quant meltdown in HF space) and then it took another year before things really collapsed and bankruptcies started to get moving.

The M&A peak was 2007Q2. Q3 and Q4 were lower by half (link). But then the stock market didn't crash until late 2008.

So if you look at bankruptcies, they didn't pick up until well after M&A peaked.

The other thing to remember is that K&E did lay off a bunch of associates and also got rid of underperforming SPs (which they still do from time to time), along with delaying starts for first-years, etc.

K&E anon who mentioned hedging above. I certainly don’t think anyone has rose colored glasses about the firm being 100% impervious to economic shifts, including me. But it’s in a pretty strong position relative to peers though, right? It’s good to point out struggles from the prior crash, but the same thing was happening to the industry at large. I was under the impression the K&E was no worse than peers, and arguably better off. From a “assuming my career is tied to the BigLaw industry and its problems as a whole, which of these firms gives me a lower downside risk, even if that risk is non-zero” perspective.

[Anonymous User]

Friend of a friend said only ONE corporate associate left their firm despite getting offers from Kirkland. I guess it's not for everyone, but you'd have to reallllllly convince me why it's worth giving up tons more money...

[Anonymous User]

Friend of a friend said only ONE corporate associate left their firm despite getting offers from Kirkland. I guess it's not for everyone, but you'd have to reallllllly convince me why it's worth giving up tons more money...

Which firm(s) and what kind of billable expectations do they have? Kirkland is not a 2000 hour a year firm, especially now and especially especially in certain practice groups. It would be a huge lifestyle change for plenty of SLC associates to jump from midlaw to Kirkland. There are hundreds of associates who choose to exit biglaw every year (when they could have stayed and cashed the checks) for those lifestyle reasons.

With all of that said, making New York market salary and 1.2x market bonus while paying SLC living expenses seems like something that most lawyers already living there should at least strongly consider trying out for a year.

[Anonymous User]

Friend of a friend said only ONE corporate associate left their firm despite getting offers from Kirkland. I guess it's not for everyone, but you'd have to reallllllly convince me why it's worth giving up tons more money...

Which firm(s) and what kind of billable expectations do they have? Kirkland is not a 2000 hour a year firm, especially now and especially especially in certain practice groups. It would be a huge lifestyle change for plenty of SLC associates to jump from midlaw to Kirkland. There are hundreds of associates who choose to exit biglaw every year (when they could have stayed and cashed the checks) for those lifestyle reasons.

With all of that said, making New York market salary and 1.2x market bonus while paying SLC living expenses seems like something that most lawyers already living there should at least strongly consider trying out for a year.

This is what I am curious about too. As someone ex-biglaw who went to a local SLC firm, can confirm I have had associates routinely call it a night at 7PM even though big closing the next morning, or who go all weekend without answering an email, or who actually complain to partners because I asked them to do something on Columbus day. Very curious to see how this works at K&E SLC.

[Anonymous User]

If the Kirkland move really is for the purpose of attracting talent and not clients, which I don't doubt, why is setting up an office here preferable to just letting people who want to work remotely work from anywhere?

[Ultramar vistas]

If the Kirkland move really is for the purpose of attracting talent and not clients, which I don't doubt, why is setting up an office here preferable to just letting people who want to work remotely work from anywhere?

Because firms also have to grow talent organically from the bottom up, and they’re all discovering that first years don’t learn and develop efficiently while working remotely, and have a higher rate of attrition too. You can plug the gaps with mid level laterals (working remotely or otherwise) for a while, but it’s expensive vs homegrown talent.

[k_moreno]

K&E anon who mentioned hedging above. I certainly don’t think anyone has rose colored glasses about the firm being 100% impervious to economic shifts, including me. But it’s in a pretty strong position relative to peers though, right? It’s good to point out struggles from the prior crash, but the same thing was happening to the industry at large. I was under the impression the K&E was no worse than peers, and arguably better off. From a “assuming my career is tied to the BigLaw industry and its problems as a whole, which of these firms gives me a lower downside risk, even if that risk is non-zero” perspective.

I don't think that K&E's advantage compared to other firms is as large as it used to be for the following reasons:
1. In 2007 it was far less profitable, so when the downturn came its rates weren't the highest in the market.
2. Far more corporate heavy now
3. Huge outlays on incredible new offices -- in just the last few years, Chicago, London, Washington DC, century city, Houston, plus lots of remodeling (Boston and New York?).
4. All these new locations (Austin, Boston, Dallas, SLC) create more leverage and more tilt to the most cyclical part of the business.

The people the new locations are good for are SPs who earn profits off of them (for now). For a current associate, I don't see how they help anything. If you want to live in SLC and make coastal money, though, it's amazing.

[Anonymous User]

With ever-widening gaps between partner and associate comp, and biglaw (not just Kirkland) relying heavily on deal work that dries up quickly in downturns, it seems likely that the next real economic hurt (a 2008 more than a 2020 that was correctly perceived as a blip) is going to be devastating for biglaw associates - massive layoffs across the board. Kirkland is probably not going to stand out on this front on either side of it. All of biglaw is going to look ruthless.

[Anonymous User]

Friend of a friend said only ONE corporate associate left their firm despite getting offers from Kirkland. I guess it's not for everyone, but you'd have to reallllllly convince me why it's worth giving up tons more money...

Which firm(s) and what kind of billable expectations do they have? Kirkland is not a 2000 hour a year firm, especially now and especially especially in certain practice groups. It would be a huge lifestyle change for plenty of SLC associates to jump from midlaw to Kirkland. There are hundreds of associates who choose to exit biglaw every year (when they could have stayed and cashed the checks) for those lifestyle reasons.

With all of that said, making New York market salary and 1.2x market bonus while paying SLC living expenses seems like something that most lawyers already living there should at least strongly consider trying out for a year.

This is what I am curious about too. As someone ex-biglaw who went to a local SLC firm, can confirm I have had associates routinely call it a night at 7PM even though big closing the next morning, or who go all weekend without answering an email, or who actually complain to partners because I asked them to do something on Columbus day. Very curious to see how this works at K&E SLC.

There’s also probably a huge difference in partnership prospects. Making share partner at Kirkland will almost certainly not be realistic in SLC, though its career NSPs may make comparable money to midlaw partners if they’re allowed to stick around.

[Anonymous User]

Friend of a friend said only ONE corporate associate left their firm despite getting offers from Kirkland. I guess it's not for everyone, but you'd have to reallllllly convince me why it's worth giving up tons more money...

Which firm(s) and what kind of billable expectations do they have? Kirkland is not a 2000 hour a year firm, especially now and especially especially in certain practice groups. It would be a huge lifestyle change for plenty of SLC associates to jump from midlaw to Kirkland. There are hundreds of associates who choose to exit biglaw every year (when they could have stayed and cashed the checks) for those lifestyle reasons.

With all of that said, making New York market salary and 1.2x market bonus while paying SLC living expenses seems like something that most lawyers already living there should at least strongly consider trying out for a year.

This is what I am curious about too. As someone ex-biglaw who went to a local SLC firm, can confirm I have had associates routinely call it a night at 7PM even though big closing the next morning, or who go all weekend without answering an email, or who actually complain to partners because I asked them to do something on Columbus day. Very curious to see how this works at K&E SLC.

He is at Dorsey Whitney and said his billables were 2200+ last year and the year before. This year he's going to "blow past that". What I've gathered from our convos is that they work big law hours and have really small deal teams (think just 2 associates for $500MM+ transaction) which sounds like hell to me but some people may like having big "responsibility" on deals.

[peoplearehungry]

Wilson Sonsini officially coming into the Salt Lake market now: https://www.wsgr.com/en/insights/wilson ... -team.html

They have had a "stealth" office in SLC in the past, though I'm not sure what the status of that has been for the last few years.

Looks like they are trying to protect market share, given the VC and deal work they have done in the area over the years.

[Anonymous User]

The IPO deal work? Bc from what I’ve seen they haven’t been used by many funds and just a few very late stage companies. SLC firms have beaten coastal firms on work because of their rates. Cos. and investors here are used to $400/hour legal work for senior associates and partners. They won’t be happy to pay $800 for a first year just because they are at a name brand firm. But this is all just my opinion and I’m interested to see how the legal market reacts.

[peoplearehungry]

The IPO deal work? Bc from what I’ve seen they haven’t been used by many funds and just a few very late stage companies. SLC firms have beaten coastal firms on work because of their rates. Cos. and investors here are used to $400/hour legal work for senior associates and partners. They won’t be happy to pay $800 for a first year just because they are at a name brand firm. But this is all just my opinion and I’m interested to see how the legal market reacts.

The firm's claim is that they've advised more VCs on Utah-related investments than anyone else since 2016. This likely involves lots of advice to VCs outside of Utah on investments in the state but doesn't preclude advising Utah-based VC. The exact quote is, "Wilson Sonsini has advised more venture capital firms on Utah-related deals and more Utah-based issuers on IPOs than any other firm since 2016, ranking first in each category by a substantial margin. The firm ranks fourth among law firms in advising on Utah-related mergers and acquisitions in the same period."

Whereas the K&E play seems to be talent-oriented (come work for us and live close to your Mormon family, ski in good snow, etc.), WSGR seems to be trying to protect the turf now that BigLaw is showing up. Who knows what Foley and Lardner is doing.

As to whether the market will support BigLaw rates, it seems that to some extent they already do. If WSGR is the number one adviser for Utah-based IPOs by a "substantial margin," then Utah companies are paying their rates for that service. And WSGR isn't the only BigLaw firm to take a Utah company public, either. The WSGR press release also mentions M&A work in the state, so Utah companies are also paying BigLaw rates for that, too. Whether they will pay BigLaw rates for other work remains to be seen, I suppose.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone have any insight into Parsons Behle? Comp, work-life balance, culture, etc?