NY: White & Case vs. Sullivan & Cromwell? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I haven’t been able to find any threads directly comparing these two firms. I’m not sure how to choose besides Vault rankings, and I know that may not really be an informed decision. Can someone please help? I don’t have a specific practice area in mind and found talking to people at both firms to be enjoyable.

[Anonymous User]

Do you know if you want to do corporate or litigation? Are you interested in remaining in New York long-term?

[Anonymous User]

Do you know if you want to do corporate or litigation? Are you interested in remaining in New York long-term?

I may be leaning a bit towards litigation, but I'm really just trying to do as much of both as possible before eventually having to choose. I'm really open to different practice areas right now. Likely would want to remain in New York long-term.

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

RX is a glaring omission here

[Anonymous User]

This isn’t really close at all

[louislittmbajdesq]

While it's true that sometimes TLS and lawyers in general can get way too obsessed about prestige and firm rankings, the gap between these two firms is materially huge. Should be an easy choice, regardless of corporate or litigation.

[Anonymous User]

Should firm culture be a factor here?

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

RX is a glaring omission here

Neither S&C nor White are anywhere close to top restructuring firms. I think we can intuit from the poster's lack of specification of any niche practice areas that they aren't looking for RX. If they have the qualifications for S&C and want RX they should go to Weil or Kirkland, not White & Case.

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

RX is a glaring omission here

Neither S&C nor White are anywhere close to top restructuring firms. I think we can intuit from the poster's lack of specification of any niche practice areas that they aren't looking for RX. If they have the qualifications for S&C and want RX they should go to Weil or Kirkland, not White & Case.

W&C is much closer to a top RX firm and has been aggressively expanding by acquiring up and coming debtor partners. Can't tell the future, but it's well positioned to be a significant player in RX (and it already is, really).

Idk what the OP is or isn't interested in. We're comparing the two firms mentioned, and W&C has a significant edge over S&C there. Not disagreeing that S&C is the much more desirable firm overall.

[Anonymous User]

S&C has been growing its restructuring practice. They recently brought in a huge partner from Cleary - James Bromely - who's now global head of restructuring. Not sure that White & Case outpaces that.

[Anonymous User]

S&C has been growing its restructuring practice. They recently brought in a huge partner from Cleary - James Bromely - who's now global head of restructuring. Not sure that White & Case outpaces that.

W&C looted Sidley's RX practice, snatched up four partners in the last few months including the co-heads of the group. Also took two RX partners from Ropes & Gray including one of the co-heads. And W&C had a much bigger RX group to start with than S&C ever has.

If you tell me that S&C is growing its RX practice it wouldn't surprise me in the least, but it's starting from a much smaller group and is far less of a known quantity in the RX world than W&C. I don't doubt that S&C has the capacity to grow its practice, but W&C is a much more prominent player as of now, and is also expanding aggressively.

What that means from an associate's perspective is a different discussion though, anyways.

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

RX is a glaring omission here

Neither S&C nor White are anywhere close to top restructuring firms. I think we can intuit from the poster's lack of specification of any niche practice areas that they aren't looking for RX. If they have the qualifications for S&C and want RX they should go to Weil or Kirkland, not White & Case.

W&C is much closer to a top RX firm and has been aggressively expanding by acquiring up and coming debtor partners. Can't tell the future, but it's well positioned to be a significant player in RX (and it already is, really).

Idk what the OP is or isn't interested in. We're comparing the two firms mentioned, and W&C has a significant edge over S&C there. Not disagreeing that S&C is the much more desirable firm overall.

[anon b/c I work at one of the below mentioned firms and don't want to be revealed by my post history].

I would agree w/ this analysis. W&C RX is on a streak right now having picked up debtor side partners & associates, as well as having just did BSA and Hertz on the debtor side. They are expanding w/ laterals from the top shops. K&E's non-equity partnership model does not help it in this regard as many of their non-equity partners need spots to land and end up moving shops to W&C instead of Weil. Word on the street is Weil RX is understaffed + overworked vs K&E which is overstaffed and working in different groups. Many defections to W&C have already happened and are incoming.

~ 10 years ago people were saying W&C was incredibly financially unhealthy & now is in AmLaw 10. It definitely seems like they are on an upwards trajectory; if OP wants to consider being able to ride the wave up in terms of his/her career trajectory vs. starting somewhere uber prestigious that may be a consideration, especially as I've found the level of toxicity in these firms is pretty well-correlated w/ vault rankings. Just my opinion. If you want to be able to compete in smaller associate classes and potentially make partner maybe W&C is a better option depending but that's just an outsider's perspective.

[Anonymous User]

its probs easy to lateral from s&c to w&c, but the opposite is really hard. If OP thinks s&c is not the right fit they can always lateral down to w&c in a few years. Overall, corporate or litigation, these two firms are not really peers, s&c has a significant edge

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

RX is a glaring omission here

Neither S&C nor White are anywhere close to top restructuring firms. I think we can intuit from the poster's lack of specification of any niche practice areas that they aren't looking for RX. If they have the qualifications for S&C and want RX they should go to Weil or Kirkland, not White & Case.

W&C is much closer to a top RX firm and has been aggressively expanding by acquiring up and coming debtor partners. Can't tell the future, but it's well positioned to be a significant player in RX (and it already is, really).

Idk what the OP is or isn't interested in. We're comparing the two firms mentioned, and W&C has a significant edge over S&C there. Not disagreeing that S&C is the much more desirable firm overall.

[anon b/c I work at one of the below mentioned firms and don't want to be revealed by my post history].

I would agree w/ this analysis. W&C RX is on a streak right now having picked up debtor side partners & associates, as well as having just did BSA and Hertz on the debtor side. They are expanding w/ laterals from the top shops. K&E's non-equity partnership model does not help it in this regard as many of their non-equity partners need spots to land and end up moving shops to W&C instead of Weil. Word on the street is Weil RX is understaffed + overworked vs K&E which is overstaffed and working in different groups. Many defections to W&C have already happened and are incoming.

~ 10 years ago people were saying W&C was incredibly financially unhealthy & now is in AmLaw 10. It definitely seems like they are on an upwards trajectory; if OP wants to consider being able to ride the wave up in terms of his/her career trajectory vs. starting somewhere uber prestigious that may be a consideration, especially as I've found the level of toxicity in these firms is pretty well-correlated w/ vault rankings. Just my opinion. If you want to be able to compete in smaller associate classes and potentially make partner maybe W&C is a better option depending but that's just an outsider's perspective.

Weil RX has been slow since bankruptcy filings slowed down. Def not true that associates are overworked, at least at the moment. Kirkland also pushed out a bunch of their RX associates.

[Anonymous User]

Sullivan is better than White & Case for pretty much anything. S&C is band 1 for M&A and litigation in NY while White is band 4/6 respectively. This is a no brainer unless you have a highly specific reason for being at White.

RX is a glaring omission here

Neither S&C nor White are anywhere close to top restructuring firms. I think we can intuit from the poster's lack of specification of any niche practice areas that they aren't looking for RX. If they have the qualifications for S&C and want RX they should go to Weil or Kirkland, not White & Case.

W&C is much closer to a top RX firm and has been aggressively expanding by acquiring up and coming debtor partners. Can't tell the future, but it's well positioned to be a significant player in RX (and it already is, really).

Idk what the OP is or isn't interested in. We're comparing the two firms mentioned, and W&C has a significant edge over S&C there. Not disagreeing that S&C is the much more desirable firm overall.

[anon b/c I work at one of the below mentioned firms and don't want to be revealed by my post history].

I would agree w/ this analysis. W&C RX is on a streak right now having picked up debtor side partners & associates, as well as having just did BSA and Hertz on the debtor side. They are expanding w/ laterals from the top shops. K&E's non-equity partnership model does not help it in this regard as many of their non-equity partners need spots to land and end up moving shops to W&C instead of Weil. Word on the street is Weil RX is understaffed + overworked vs K&E which is overstaffed and working in different groups. Many defections to W&C have already happened and are incoming.

~ 10 years ago people were saying W&C was incredibly financially unhealthy & now is in AmLaw 10. It definitely seems like they are on an upwards trajectory; if OP wants to consider being able to ride the wave up in terms of his/her career trajectory vs. starting somewhere uber prestigious that may be a consideration, especially as I've found the level of toxicity in these firms is pretty well-correlated w/ vault rankings. Just my opinion. If you want to be able to compete in smaller associate classes and potentially make partner maybe W&C is a better option depending but that's just an outsider's perspective.

Weil RX has been slow since bankruptcy filings slowed down. Def not true that associates are overworked, at least at the moment. Kirkland also pushed out a bunch of their RX associates.

Anon from above [pls keep me anon mods so I can spill tea w/o getting fired] -- my bad on the Weil info. Had heard typically those associates have smaller class sizes but a similar level of workload as KE (generally) and were pretty overworked. But, if untrue that's also good data to know.

Can also confirm KE has pushed out a number of bankruptcy associates with far more jrs yet to be pushed out (but the ones to come haven't caught on and/or don't understand that - they think that it's just slow in the group & hence no work).

At jr levels, the group's 100%, totally overstaffed (35 in 2020, 45 incoming associates in 2021) but mgmt insists that its method of assigning work in person remains an acceptable mechanism for spreading around virtual work. Very close w/ several ppl who work in this group (though I do not).

The infamous KE open assignment system, in the virtual environment, means that the most popular - in the hs sense - jr attnys and those willing to beg for even the worst work will get the billables. But, if you have low billables, have to beg for work and still can't get staffed, that's the sign you're not popular enough w/ the top brass to be considered a first-string restructuring/bk attny and that the mgmt will let you stagnate until it is time to either push you out or ask you to leave around years 2 or 3.

KE is wasting their associates' time -- i.e., they won't tell jr associates that they need to find different in-firm work or a new group. Bankruptcy at Kirkland will just freeze you out of the group in terms of billable hours and force you to work for other groups through forced staffing. You'll likely be staffed to partners who cannot staff in their own groups & who are generally disliked by their jr staffers/attnys, who will refuse their work because they are allowed to under the open assignment system, and unlike those attnys, you WILL be FORCED to do that work until you wise-up and leave.

I can't say this is the same for corp. gen which has enough work for its associates, but beware, slow groups at KE are a ticking time bomb for your career -- they'll make you switch, waste your time, or fire you.

[Anonymous User]

Is this a troll thread?

Obviously White and Case, aka the greatest white shoe behemoth in the Milky Way.