What is needed to get hired at Cravath? Forum

[Anonymous User]

To sort of play devil’s advocate, doesn’t your example show that Cravath is in fact special? I work there and don’t think that the experience is dramatically different than what my friends at STB/S&C/DPW get but the “specialness” doesn’t derive from anything about the work necessarily, it comes from the fact that lots of people (e.g. 3/4 professors at your T6 law school) think it’s special. The specialness is purely a cultural fact and any objective substantive difference between Cravath and the equivalent NYC firms (I.e. which makes you a “better lawyer”) is sort of besides the point.

Please--my eyes can only roll back so far. Being the target of a joke does not inherently indicate anything. Sometimes it signifies status (e.g. jokes about Yale) and sometimes it signifies absolutely nothing (e.g. jokes about Cravath). Making a joke about Cravath does not mean that the professors think Cravath is "special"; Cravath is simply a known referent.

Ok but why is it a known referent? You (assuming you’re the one I originally quoted) say 1Ls know it because professors talk about it but professors talk about it because it’s known (circular reasoning?). Professors reference it because it is a cultural fact among lawyers that Cravath is known as one of the top firms. Which, again, is to say nothing about the substantive experience but to pretend this is just some 1L meme and not emblematic of something larger (even if not universal) is asinine.

[Anonymous User]

To sort of play devil’s advocate, doesn’t your example show that Cravath is in fact special? I work there and don’t think that the experience is dramatically different than what my friends at STB/S&C/DPW get but the “specialness” doesn’t derive from anything about the work necessarily, it comes from the fact that lots of people (e.g. 3/4 professors at your T6 law school) think it’s special. The specialness is purely a cultural fact and any objective substantive difference between Cravath and the equivalent NYC firms (I.e. which makes you a “better lawyer”) is sort of besides the point.

From what I’ve seen, this cultural fact extends to people in all sorts of law and law adjacent walks of life. I also assume (hope?) that it extends to lateral opportunities and post-law firm recruiting so I think that the myth of The Firm (even if it is bullshit) is what makes it special from the prospect of someone going there.

I'm not really in a position to know, but I think the problem with your assumption (or hope) is that the people doing in-house hiring or lateral hiring are sophisticated consumers / producers of legal services, rather than 1Ls for whom "Cravath" is simply a stand-in for "that one biglaw firm you've probably heard about before."

[Anonymous User]

Ok but why is it a known referent? You (assuming you’re the one I originally quoted) say 1Ls know it because professors talk about it but professors talk about it because it’s known (circular reasoning?).

Not really. I was unaware of Cravath and Wachtell before professors joked about them. But those classes were not 1L-only, which I think matters.

Professors reference it because it is a cultural fact among lawyers that Cravath is known as one of the top firms.

Sure. Like Wachtell or S&C. Or MTO in LA or Covington and Williams & Connolly in DC (which seem to be the only firms my classmates are familiar with in those markets).

I think the real question is whether any of the jokes could not also be made about other firms with indistinguishable results. In my experience, the answer is no. The Cravath-specific jokes I hear are largely about faded glory, asshole attorneys, and working Wachtell hours for market pay. Not to say any of those things are true. And other firms have similar jokes about them.

Which, again, is to say nothing about the substantive experience but to pretend this is just some 1L meme and not emblematic of something larger (even if not universal) is asinine.

I do not know why you seem so insecure about this. It is just some 1L meme. The topic is literally professors making jokes to law students about biglaw culture.

[Anonymous User]

To sort of play devil’s advocate, doesn’t your example show that Cravath is in fact special? I work there and don’t think that the experience is dramatically different than what my friends at STB/S&C/DPW get but the “specialness” doesn’t derive from anything about the work necessarily, it comes from the fact that lots of people (e.g. 3/4 professors at your T6 law school) think it’s special. The specialness is purely a cultural fact and any objective substantive difference between Cravath and the equivalent NYC firms (I.e. which makes you a “better lawyer”) is sort of besides the point.

Please--my eyes can only roll back so far. Being the target of a joke does not inherently indicate anything. Sometimes it signifies status (e.g. jokes about Yale) and sometimes it signifies absolutely nothing (e.g. jokes about Cravath). Making a joke about Cravath does not mean that the professors think Cravath is "special"; Cravath is simply a known referent.

Ok but why is it a known referent? You (assuming you’re the one I originally quoted) say 1Ls know it because professors talk about it but professors talk about it because it’s known (circular reasoning?). Professors reference it because it is a cultural fact among lawyers that Cravath is known as one of the top firms. Which, again, is to say nothing about the substantive experience but to pretend this is just some 1L meme and not emblematic of something larger (even if not universal) is asinine.

Lol, I'm the one you originally quoted. I agree with you - not eye-rolling at all !

I'll just add: As a [slightly more aware] 1L, I know that, e.g., Wachtell is significantly harder to get than Cravath (and that lit boutiques are on a whole other level), but I have noticed that in conversations with fellow 1Ls, Cravath has increasingly come up as this encapsulation of "gunner land" (for lack of a better term)?? Like, when my friends hear that some 2L or 3L worked at Cravath or is going there for the summer, they do have that, "Ooooh, Cravath?" reaction, probably because they've just heard it talked about so much more by professors. Literally we might say right after Cravath that so-and-so is going to Davis Polk, and no one has a reaction because many 1Ls are literally too naive to retain any firm name beyond Cravath LOLL. So I do think Cravath benefits from this, perhaps undeserved, attention from 1Ls, thanks to professors who talk about it.

Also, as an aside, even upper-year students at my T6 talk about Cravath in a way that makes the firm sound "special." At a recent mentor family gathering, for instance, some of us 1Ls asked about just how bad our grades from first semester were. The 3L comforted us that we'll definitely get BigLaw jobs but added something along the lines of, "Of course, if you're gunning for Cravath, it's going to be an uphill battle." So, the impressionable 1L who hasn't delved into Chambers is going to come away from that conversation with the notion that, "Oh, there's this one firm that everyone keeps mentioning that is really hard to get." So, it's stuff like that which feeds the aura, but I agree with everyone that it's most likely an illusory aura. Just please don't hate on us 1Ls that much - many of us are truly pretty dumb when it comes to what constitutes a "selective" firm and we will just latch onto whatever Caucasian last name is thrown around the most in our first few months of law school.

[Anonymous User]

The 3L comforted us that we'll definitely get BigLaw jobs but added something along the lines of, "Of course, if you're gunning for Cravath, it's going to be an uphill battle." So, the impressionable 1L who hasn't delved into Chambers is going to come away from that conversation with the notion that, "Oh, there's this one firm that everyone keeps mentioning that is really hard to get."

The irony is that this is not actually true for at least some T6 schools; Cravath is definitely nowhere near the hardest firm to get into. And it is less grade-selective than several of its peers and no more grade selective than any of its peers.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

[+] Spoiler

^^ borrowed from that hilarious 1L thread a few weeks ago Can we agree to start using this as a copypasta in every single preftige thread?

[Anonymous User]

Putting aside Cravath's prestige, that place is morally bankrupt imo. I don't know why this isn't discussed more.

[Anonymous User]

Putting aside Cravath's prestige, that place is morally bankrupt imo. I don't know why this isn't discussed more.

Not disagreeing but do you think it is more so than you average big law firm?

[Anonymous User]

Putting aside Cravath's prestige, that place is morally bankrupt imo. I don't know why this isn't discussed more.

Curious to hear more about this.

[Anonymous User]

Putting aside Cravath's prestige, that place is morally bankrupt imo. I don't know why this isn't discussed more.

Jones Day associate projecting? LOL. Or maybe Kirkland? Jeffrey Bossert Clark is pretty hard to beat if we're talking about morally bankrupt...

[Anonymous User]

Putting aside Cravath's prestige, that place is morally bankrupt imo. I don't know why this isn't discussed more.

Not disagreeing but do you think it is more so than you average big law firm?

The idea that Cravath is morally bankrupt is an unsupported claim, with zero basis in reality, from someone who probably struck out at OCI.

Like every biglaw firm worth a salt, the firm represents people who are highly influential, wealthy and facing claims or doing deals with implications that raise moral questions. But can most biglaw firms say they're as involved in supporting good causes as Cravath? Obviously this doesn't balance whatever "morally bankrupt" work we do (put aside whether that's a fair accusation), but we are often the biggest donors to major humane causes and we do pro bono work with big players like ACLU, Brennan, Lamda Legal, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Putting aside Cravath's prestige, that place is morally bankrupt imo. I don't know why this isn't discussed more.

Not disagreeing but do you think it is more so than you average big law firm?

The idea that Cravath is morally bankrupt is an unsupported claim, with zero basis in reality, from someone who probably struck out at OCI.

Like every biglaw firm worth a salt, the firm represents people who are highly influential, wealthy and facing claims or doing deals with implications that raise moral questions. But can most biglaw firms say they're as involved in supporting good causes as Cravath? Obviously this doesn't balance whatever "morally bankrupt" work we do (put aside whether that's a fair accusation), but we are often the biggest donors to major humane causes and we do pro bono work with big players like ACLU, Brennan, Lamda Legal, etc.

I worked there, I think longer than you, judging by how your reference is to OCI (OCI was a long time ago for me), and I left because of the moral bankruptcy. The moral bankruptcy I’m talking about isn’t related to their lack of support for certain liberal causes (they don’t do much of this but I didn’t really mind that) but I’m referring to their corporate practice: the way they operate their firm, bill their client, represented themselves in the court, treat their employees, including, honestly, even their partners. I was asked to do things I wasn’t comfortable in a case, and saw others being asked to do the same.

For others who asked whether it was worse there than other firms, I think my current firm doesn’t display nearly as many red flags as I saw at Cravath. Yes, I think it’s worse than many other firms, but perhaps not ALL firms (how can I comment on this? I didn’t work at literally every single firm).

[Anonymous User]

Double post

[Sackboy]

Just to satiate my own curiosity I'm curious what you were asked to do on deals that made you uncomfortable? Other than redline shenanigans or double billing my time, I can't really think of anything that I could do on a deal that would be obviously unethical. Though, I am a corporate lawyer, so imagination might just not be my strong suit.

[Anonymous User]

Just to satiate my own curiosity I'm curious what you were asked to do on deals that made you uncomfortable? Other than redline shenanigans or double billing my time, I can't really think of anything that I could do on a deal that would be obviously unethical. Though, I am a corporate lawyer, so imagination might just not be my strong suit.

Curious about this, too.

I worked at Cravath for a short time (2-ish years) and didn't come across anything unethical, though I'm not saying the other poster's experience is invalid. I do think certain partners and associates could be treated with more respect. I did work across from another law firm's bank finance team once that kept sending fake blacklines (concealing that they had reinstated certain changes, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

Like every biglaw firm worth a salt, the firm represents people who are highly influential, wealthy and facing claims or doing deals with implications that raise moral questions. But can most biglaw firms say they're as involved in supporting good causes as Cravath? Obviously this doesn't balance whatever "morally bankrupt" work we do (put aside whether that's a fair accusation), but we are often the biggest donors to major humane causes and we do pro bono work with big players like ACLU, Brennan, Lamda Legal, etc.

Yes. I literally do not get these attempts at exceptionalism. In what way, either through billing policies or average pro bono hours per attorney, is Cravath in any way a standout or unique? I agree that I know of nothing marking Cravath's singular moral bankruptcy either, but it seems in the middle on the pro bono spectrum.

[Anonymous User]

[deleted]

[Anonymous User]

Anyone knows how much do the firms weigh undergrad GPA? Or they focus on 1L GPA only?

[Anonymous User]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

[Anonymous User]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

Am I wrong or does only of those schools have a curve?

[ExpOriental]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

Please goad this person:

"Oh cool, Cravath! You just didn't want to deal with the hours at Wachtell, right?"

[Anonymous User]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

can you name and shame please? sounds like a harvard person

[Anonymous User]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

Am I wrong or does only of those schools have a curve?

I think you're wrong. Both H and S have curves. H does not have formal curve for small classes, and DS/LP are discretionary. Stanford has mandatory 30/70 curve for H/P with book awards for the best students. Yale just has H/P/LP and it's all discretionary.

But even at a school with no mandatory curve like Yale, the grade distribution still falls onto a bell-curve where some students will be at the top of the class (all H) and others at the bottom (Ps and LPs).

[Anonymous User]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

They must not have been a very competent gunner if they only got Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

Just contributing my anecdote to this thread which is that the #1 most notorious gunner at my YSH gunned for Cravath for some reason and secured a pre-OCI offer from the firm (and then bragged about it on social media during the beginning of OCI interviews)


This was not just an annoying gunner, but one of the toxic gunners that would absolutely push a classmate off of a cliff if they thought it would benefit them on the curve. Just a vile, nasty sociopath that was universally disliked at my school.

I can't tell if this supports Cravath taking into account undergrad GPA or only 1L GPA. The context points to the latter, but my mind keeps drifting to the herd of gunners who suddenly shut up after 1L fall grades came out.