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Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:42 pm
by Anonymous User
Currently looking at Cleary, Debevoise, and Weil. Would like to be in corporate practice without a sweatshop culture. I want to keep my options open for later on, whether it is staying at the firm, lateraling, or going in-house. It's hard to distinguish between the three firms. Everyone I spoke with was really nice and friendly. The follow-up questions I asked haven't made much of a distinction between the firms. They all tend to give very similar answers. Any advice would be appreciated.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:37 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:42 pm
Currently looking at Cleary, Debevoise, and Weil. Would like to be in corporate practice without a sweatshop culture. I want to keep my options open for later on, whether it is staying at the firm, lateraling, or going in-house. It's hard to distinguish between the three firms. Everyone I spoke with was really nice and friendly. The follow-up questions I asked haven't made much of a distinction between the firms. They all tend to give very similar answers. Any advice would be appreciated.
For prestige, Cleary & Deb. But I've spoken to a lot of very happy people at Weil, and they've all had wonderful things to say about the firm. I say Weil, but I'm sure others will disagree.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
by Anonymous User
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Deb less prestigious than Weil?
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:54 pm
by 2013
I’d go with Deb.
I know people at Weil and they say it’s kind of sweatshoppy. I don’t know how true that is, but they had a slightly different covid bonus structure than the standard.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Deb less prestigious than Weil?
Yes, obviously. Everyone knows this.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:32 pm
by Anonymous User
Deb > Weil no doubt. Prestige included.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:33 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Deb less prestigious than Weil?
Yes, obviously. Everyone knows this.
Seems like it's not so obvious? I can see it for corporate work, but for litigation? And even for corporate work, they have similar rankings on Chambers. Genuinely curious about this.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:27 am
by Anonymous User
I think you're asking a fair question. Folks on here can sometimes conflate selectivity at the recruitment level with "prestige" in a way that isn't super helpful for making career moves. Nevertheless, at my T30, Weil made plenty of offers but it was very difficult to snag one from Debevoise.
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Deb less prestigious than Weil?
Yes, obviously. Everyone knows this.
Seems like it's not so obvious? I can see it for corporate work, but for litigation? And even for corporate work, they have similar rankings on Chambers. Genuinely curious about this.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:09 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:27 am
I think you're asking a fair question. Folks on here can sometimes conflate selectivity at the recruitment level with "prestige" in a way that isn't super helpful for making career moves. Nevertheless, at my T30, Weil made plenty of offers but it was very difficult to snag one from Debevoise.
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Deb less prestigious than Weil?
Yes, obviously. Everyone knows this.
Seems like it's not so obvious? I can see it for corporate work, but for litigation? And even for corporate work, they have similar rankings on Chambers. Genuinely curious about this.
It’s incredible. People should be happy knowing that they were the only one from their class hired at Debevoise to work in one of their many band 4 practices. Smfh
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:34 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:09 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:27 am
I think you're asking a fair question. Folks on here can sometimes conflate selectivity at the recruitment level with "prestige" in a way that isn't super helpful for making career moves. Nevertheless, at my T30, Weil made plenty of offers but it was very difficult to snag one from Debevoise.
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:28 pm
For prestige Deb over Weil? LOL
Deb less prestigious than Weil?
Yes, obviously. Everyone knows this.
Seems like it's not so obvious? I can see it for corporate work, but for litigation? And even for corporate work, they have similar rankings on Chambers. Genuinely curious about this.
It’s incredible. People should be happy knowing that they were the only one from their class hired at Debevoise to work in one of their many band 4 practices. Smfh
Weil has a Band 2 Corporate M&A Elite rating from Chambers, so in that category it outperforms Deb. But it looks like for most other corporate categories they're equal: see banking and finance.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:52 am
by Anonymous User
For prestige, it would be Weil, Cleary > Deb.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:21 am
by 2013
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:52 am
For prestige, it would be Weil, Cleary > Deb.
I think Cleary is slightly more “prestigious” if only because it is slightly more selective. You don’t see as many TTT grads (who graduated top of their class) at Cleary.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:46 am
by Anonymous User
2013 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:21 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:52 am
For prestige, it would be Weil, Cleary > Deb.
I think Cleary is slightly more “prestigious” if only because it is slightly more selective. You don’t see as many TTT grads (who graduated top of their class) at Cleary.
Cleary is also much lower in RPL than these two firms and seems to be losing partners left and right to other firms.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm
by Anonymous User
I'd second what the poster above said. Cleary has lost a bunch of big names over the past year or two. Freshfields poached 4 partners, including one significant rainmaker. Also, a top M&A partner recently left for Milbank and the head of their tech transactional group left for Cooley. Cleary is still a great firm but it's something worth considering. Can't really say much about Deb vs Weil, but I'd go with Deb. I've heard good things about working there and they do some top notch work in some practices, like funds and PE. Weil is the obvious choice if you have any interest in doing bankruptcy.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm
I'd second what the poster above said. Cleary has lost a bunch of big names over the past year or two. Freshfields poached 4 partners, including one significant rainmaker. Also, a top M&A partner recently left for Milbank and the head of their tech transactional group left for Cooley. Cleary is still a great firm but it's something worth considering. Can't really say much about Deb vs Weil, but I'd go with Deb. I've heard good things about working there and they do some top notch work in some practices, like funds and PE. Weil is the obvious choice if you have any interest in doing bankruptcy.
Cleary is of course a solid firm but there are other things worth considering too. Cleary took far longer than any of its "peer" firms to send out CBs and offers, and did no pre-OCI hiring. If I'm going somewhere and banking on future outlook, it's not Cleary over Deb or Weil.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:27 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm
I'd second what the poster above said. Cleary has lost a bunch of big names over the past year or two. Freshfields poached 4 partners, including one significant rainmaker. Also, a top M&A partner recently left for Milbank and the head of their tech transactional group left for Cooley. Cleary is still a great firm but it's something worth considering. Can't really say much about Deb vs Weil, but I'd go with Deb. I've heard good things about working there and they do some top notch work in some practices, like funds and PE. Weil is the obvious choice if you have any interest in doing bankruptcy.
Cleary is of course a solid firm but there are other things worth considering too.
Cleary took far longer than any of its "peer" firms to send out CBs and offers, and did no pre-OCI hiring. If I'm going somewhere and banking on future outlook, it's not Cleary over Deb or Weil.
Huh, I was wondering why Cleary seemed to be out of step with V5 firms, but didn’t really connect the dots that way. If you check the school-specific OCI threads, Cleary really does seem much quieter and slow-moving versus peer firms. Is that indicative of a somewhat dampened outlook, or is that just reflective of the traditional “Cleary approach” to hiring? (as in, I’ve heard they are a bit more selective and thoughtful re: candidate fit and personality)
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:35 pm
by Anonymous User
Sorry to hijack, but I'm making the same decision but with Milbank substituted for Cleary. Didn't like Weil at my callback, so that's probably out. I'm interested in white collar defense and would like to work with international clients. Milbank is ranked in Band 2 for white collar defense on Chambers/Partners and Debevoise is Band 1. Should that be dispositive?
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:38 pm
by Anonymous User
In terms of lay prestige in the industry, it will be Weil > Deb, and Cleary is a bit trickier since it has lost a lot of big name partners over the past few years. But having said that Deb is very elite/prestigious in NYC, and in terms of recruiting may be more grade sensitive than the other two, but this does not have much relevance to its prestige in the industry and the deals and cases you get.
From what I’ve heard from my peers, Deb seem to have a less of a sweatshop or swim or sink culture than Weil or Cleary. But this also depends on the office and practice, fwiw.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm
I'd second what the poster above said. Cleary has lost a bunch of big names over the past year or two. Freshfields poached 4 partners, including one significant rainmaker. Also, a top M&A partner recently left for Milbank and the head of their tech transactional group left for Cooley. Cleary is still a great firm but it's something worth considering. Can't really say much about Deb vs Weil, but I'd go with Deb. I've heard good things about working there and they do some top notch work in some practices, like funds and PE. Weil is the obvious choice if you have any interest in doing bankruptcy.
Cleary is of course a solid firm but there are other things worth considering too.
Cleary took far longer than any of its "peer" firms to send out CBs and offers, and did no pre-OCI hiring. If I'm going somewhere and banking on future outlook, it's not Cleary over Deb or Weil.
Huh, I was wondering why Cleary seemed to be out of step with V5 firms, but didn’t really connect the dots that way. If you check the school-specific OCI threads, Cleary really does seem much quieter and slow-moving versus peer firms. Is that indicative of a somewhat dampened outlook, or is that just reflective of the traditional “Cleary approach” to hiring? (as in, I’ve heard they are a bit more selective and thoughtful re: candidate fit and personality)
It's hard to say whether it's indicative of a dampened outlook or is consistent with the firm's approach. But what stands out to me is where they rank in RPL. Cleary is inexplicably in the 40s-50s category, while all of its peer firms are in the top 20. Someone may have a good explanation for this, and I welcome it, but for now it stands out as a red flag. I also think they handled hiring really poorly, and that doesn't reflect well on the firm either.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm
I'd second what the poster above said. Cleary has lost a bunch of big names over the past year or two. Freshfields poached 4 partners, including one significant rainmaker. Also, a top M&A partner recently left for Milbank and the head of their tech transactional group left for Cooley. Cleary is still a great firm but it's something worth considering. Can't really say much about Deb vs Weil, but I'd go with Deb. I've heard good things about working there and they do some top notch work in some practices, like funds and PE. Weil is the obvious choice if you have any interest in doing bankruptcy.
Are you saying cleary is in decline?
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:54 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:38 pm
In terms of lay prestige in the industry, it will be Weil > Deb, and Cleary is a bit trickier since it has lost a lot of big name partners over the past few years. But having said that Deb is very elite/prestigious in NYC, and in terms of recruiting may be more grade sensitive than the other two, but this does not have much relevance to its prestige in the industry and the deals and cases you get.
From what I’ve heard from my peers, Deb seem to have a less of a sweatshop or swim or sink culture than Weil or Cleary. But this also depends on the office and practice, fwiw.
Funny. All of my peers there say Deb is a sweatshop across all groups. That the culture is very passive aggressive and management is always watching for who should be cut.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:09 pm
by Anonymous User
Can hands down say Deb is not a sweatshop. Personal experience here. It is worth noting that Deb is always a market leader in compensation... other firms usually take a while to match. Also worth noting Deb didn't make any cuts or cut backs during either the Recession or Corona... strong balance sheet and year over year double digit growth. And expanding. Weil is on the decline and Cleary is stagnant.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:19 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:09 pm
Can hands down say Deb is not a sweatshop. Personal experience here. It is worth noting that Deb is always a market leader in compensation... other firms usually take a while to match. Also worth noting Deb didn't make any cuts or cut backs during either the Recession or Corona... strong balance sheet and year over year double digit growth. And expanding. Weil is on the decline and Cleary is stagnant.
Weil is on the decline lol? They just had a very profitable year. There's so much speculation on this site.
Re: Cleary vs. Debevoise vs. Weil?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:23 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm
I'd second what the poster above said. Cleary has lost a bunch of big names over the past year or two. Freshfields poached 4 partners, including one significant rainmaker. Also, a top M&A partner recently left for Milbank and the head of their tech transactional group left for Cooley. Cleary is still a great firm but it's something worth considering. Can't really say much about Deb vs Weil, but I'd go with Deb. I've heard good things about working there and they do some top notch work in some practices, like funds and PE. Weil is the obvious choice if you have any interest in doing bankruptcy.
Are you saying cleary is in decline?
I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to answer that, but from the outside, it does like that. Have a look at this article summarizing the financial performance of the NY firms.
https://www.globest.com/2020/05/04/grow ... %20million.
Revenue and PEP dropped for Cleary in 2019, even though the number of partners decreased. I was pretty surprised to see that they're 20th for PEP, given that it is a pretty elite firm. There are still practices where Cleary is at the very top but I think they've definitely taken a hit with the departures. And if they stick with lockstep, it's very possible there will be more of them.