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Something I’ve been wondering about. I’m a fifth year and I’ve only ever worked at one firm (a much-ripped-on V60, in finance). My firm is a sweatshop—we’re severely understaffed and I’ve billed way above 2000 every year after my first year. I always feel like I’m doing shit work. Like, there are literally not enough hours in the day to, e.g., double check stuff I should probably be double checking, closely check junior work product before sending it along, detailed term sheet checks, benchmark against precedents, etc.—all the stuff I feel like I should be doing and would do if I had time. However, because of the crushing workload, I’m constantly having to just wing stuff. It’s bitten me and other people in my group in the ass on occasion (e.g., missing a point in a term sheet that gets noticed later). I’ve raised the issue with partners in formal/informal settings on multiple occasions, but this is plainly a business decision by the firm/group—they’re just trying to make more money with less overhead than staffing appropriately would require. Because this obviously sucks, I’m looking to lateral. I think I will be able to move way up in rankings to like a V10 or so since my practice is in demand and, for better or worse due to the above, I do have a ton of legit experience.

Which brings me to my question. I know associates at better firms are also billing a ton. But are they billing a ton because they’re stretched less thinly and have more time to spend doing the things that make the work high-quality? I.e., are they billing ~2400 hours on fewer quantity of (or better staffed) deals but focusing on quality, as opposed to us at my V60 who are billing ~2400 out of sheer quantity with no time to focus on quality?

I’m hoping so because I HATE feeling like I’m half assing things and yet there’s no other way to manage my current workload. But I obviously have a limited perspective as I’ve only worked here. I just can’t imagine that the folks at, e.g., Latham or Kirkland are working the same way, despite also being sweatshops.

Anon because I’m weighing lateral options and people know my account, and also this question obviously doesn’t reflect great on my firm.

This is Cadwalader, right? Have a callback with them but this makes me want to cancel it...

Short answer is yes. The caveat, though, is that those firms (or groups, subgroups or whatever) can be the domain of partners who strongly believe in face time or really think the difference between "will" and "shall" is meaningful or end up giving out less substantive responsibility because there's so much grunt work that "needs" to be done, so ymmv. The goal, I guess, is to find something in the middle or at least with enough variety that you're getting all flavors of legal neuroses as opposed to just one.

I’m not sure whether it’s more fulfilling to spend an extra 4 hours rereading your interview memo (or whatever the corporate equivalent is) for typos rather than rushing through a shoddy job because you objectively have too much on your plate, but, yes, the dynamic you describe is not universal.

target_corp wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:53 pm

Short answer is yes. The caveat, though, is that those firms (or groups, subgroups or whatever) can be the domain of partners who strongly believe in face time or really think the difference between "will" and "shall" is meaningful or end up giving out less substantive responsibility because there's so much grunt work that "needs" to be done, so ymmv. The goal, I guess, is to find something in the middle or at least with enough variety that you're getting all flavors of legal neuroses as opposed to just one.

The difference between "will" and "shall" IS meaningful.

I will go to the store is a statement of what I intend to do. I shall go to the store is a statement that going to the store is required. I must go there. Shall means must. Will does not mean must.

Edit: To OP's question, there are different types of sweatshops. Cravath, Kirkland, PH, Wachtell, Cadalwader. All sweatshops, but clearly different firms.

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

avenuem wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:08 am

The difference between "will" and "shall" IS meaningful.

I will go to the store is a statement of what I intend to do. I shall go to the store is a statement that going to the store is required. I must go there. Shall means must. Will does not mean must.

I'm with you, but this distinction hasn't been alive in the minds of English speakers since probably WWII. "Will" is just a simple future tense now. "The water will boil when it reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit," etc.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

Exactly.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

I've heard Latham and Milbank are "chill," but I don't know first-hand.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

I've heard Latham and Milbank are "chill," but I don't know first-hand.

That is not at all what I heard about either firm; however it might practice-group specific.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

I've heard Latham and Milbank are "chill," but I don't know first-hand.

Latham? Aren’t they one of the ultimate sweatshops? I’ve heard similar things about Milbank though, and the associates at my cb there were singing the praises of the firm’s lack of a billable requirement for bonus. Seems kind of too good to be true though?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

I've heard Latham and Milbank are "chill," but I don't know first-hand.

Latham? Aren’t they one of the ultimate sweatshops? I’ve heard similar things about Milbank though, and the associates at my cb there were singing the praises of the firm’s lack of a billable requirement for bonus. Seems kind of too good to be true though?

I'm in Milbank restructuring. 2700-2800 hours for the year. Know a few people over 3,000. FWIW. Guess depends on practice group.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

I've heard Latham and Milbank are "chill," but I don't know first-hand.

Latham? Aren’t they one of the ultimate sweatshops? I’ve heard similar things about Milbank though, and the associates at my cb there were singing the praises of the firm’s lack of a billable requirement for bonus. Seems kind of too good to be true though?

I'm in Milbank restructuring. 2700-2800 hours for the year. Know a few people over 3,000. FWIW. Guess depends on practice group.

Holy shit. What are the "calmer" practice groups?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 am

What firms are which types of sweatshops (particularly curious about NY offices)?

Is there any V50 corporate group that isn't a sweatshop? Honest question. I don't think my firm necessarily has a sweatshop reputation, and it's awful.

I've heard Latham and Milbank are "chill," but I don't know first-hand.

Latham? Aren’t they one of the ultimate sweatshops? I’ve heard similar things about Milbank though, and the associates at my cb there were singing the praises of the firm’s lack of a billable requirement for bonus. Seems kind of too good to be true though?

I'm in Milbank restructuring. 2700-2800 hours for the year. Know a few people over 3,000. FWIW. Guess depends on practice group.

Lol, thanks for this. This is why I’m hesitant about choosing a firm based on “culture”. Pretty hard to get a real picture of that by interacting with the recruiting team during OCI over Zoom.

What matters is your practice group and who you work with, not the firm. All firms have good and bad partners. If you're going to lateral you should talk to someone who can give you the truth about the practice groups you're looking at, like a friend or former classmate. Don't just trust the associates you interview with.

To answer the question: yes, not all sweatshops are alike. And being overworked in the way OP describes--needing to wing everything--is the worst situation to be in, IMO. That's how things are at my current firm; I'm often completely swamped, so when some new "urgent" task comes in all I can do is the bare minimum to get it off my plate, which I know will cause problems sooner or later. I've told this to the partners and they lightened the load for about a week before things returned to normal. At my prior firm I still worked a lot, but staffing wasn't as thin and I had more time to double check everything, so I rarely had anxiety over messing up.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:16 pm

What matters is your practice group and who you work with, not the firm. All firms have good and bad partners. If you're going to lateral you should talk to someone who can give you the truth about the practice groups you're looking at, like a friend or former classmate. Don't just trust the associates you interview with.

To answer the question: yes, not all sweatshops are alike. And being overworked in the way OP describes--needing to wing everything--is the worst situation to be in, IMO. That's how things are at my current firm; I'm often completely swamped, so when some new "urgent" task comes in all I can do is the bare minimum to get it off my plate, which I know will cause problems sooner or later. I've told this to the partners and they lightened the load for about a week before things returned to normal. At my prior firm I still worked a lot, but staffing wasn't as thin and I had more time to double check everything, so I rarely had anxiety over messing up.

OP here — thanks this is really helpful (and I think you’re the first person to answer the more nuanced question I tried to pose).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:16 pm

What matters is your practice group and who you work with, not the firm. All firms have good and bad partners. If you're going to lateral you should talk to someone who can give you the truth about the practice groups you're looking at, like a friend or former classmate. Don't just trust the associates you interview with.

To answer the question: yes, not all sweatshops are alike. And being overworked in the way OP describes--needing to wing everything--is the worst situation to be in, IMO. That's how things are at my current firm; I'm often completely swamped, so when some new "urgent" task comes in all I can do is the bare minimum to get it off my plate, which I know will cause problems sooner or later. I've told this to the partners and they lightened the load for about a week before things returned to normal. At my prior firm I still worked a lot, but staffing wasn't as thin and I had more time to double check everything, so I rarely had anxiety over messing up.

OP here — thanks this is really helpful (and I think you’re the first person to answer the more nuanced question I tried to pose).

TIL "Isn't my situation just the worst?" is a nuanced question.

I am aware of a partner at one of the firms that has been mentioned in this thread who called in an associate for a one on one meeting to tell him that he needed to do more work on the partner’s matter. When the associate brought up workload and other busy matters, the partner told him that he should be able to comfortably average 220 billed hours a month as a baseline, so he had room to add more hours on the partner’s matter to get there.

This partner is known for intensity but is not really all that far out of the norm at that firm. The associate did not start doing 220 to his credit, and I think his stock has declined with the partner since (but not to the level of getting fired or anything, so far at least).

That seems like a sweatshop to me.