Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA Forum

[Anonymous User]

Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!

I'll caveat all of the below with you really shouldn't start at a firm with an expectation of lateraling, especially not to a place like these. If it happens, great, but it's honestly pretty stupid to make this part of your plan. Please don't expect to do this.

Simpson does the most lateral hiring of the bunch. They've hired a lot of M&A laterals in particular.

S&C does too, but it didn't seem particularly common to me.

Cravath does make 3L hires, including for its core corporate/litigation practices. Your odds are higher if you're in a niche group like exec comp/benefits. After 3L, I think they technically take laterals for specialist groups, but only specialist groups.

WLRK does take laterals but it's all subject to actual need. There usually isn't much need for more people.

Got it. Just to clarify, I wanted to know if I'd have another shot at these firms (ideally while I'm still in law school) assuming I don't get screeners/offers through 2L EIP. Definitely agree that it's not ideal to actually start at a firm with the goal of lateraling. So I was actually more interested in hearing about 3L and post-clerkship hiring, as opposed to lateraling. But thanks for the info!!

[Anonymous User]

Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!

Why you gotta do DPW dirty like that

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!

Why you gotta do DPW dirty like that

[Anonymous User]

Got it. Just to clarify, I wanted to know if I'd have another shot at these firms (ideally while I'm still in law school) assuming I don't get screeners/offers through 2L EIP. Definitely agree that it's not ideal to actually start at a firm with the goal of lateraling. So I was actually more interested in hearing about 3L and post-clerkship hiring, as opposed to lateraling. But thanks for the info!!

OP. My point stands, I wouldn't expect to switch firms during 3L (even moreso for 3L vs. lateraling). You're relying on any of these firms dramatically underhiring for their summer class, and you're further relying on them to be sparse in the practice group of your choice (an extra layer of randomness).

Your best odds are post-clerkship, though I don't think Cravath does post-clerkship hires if you weren't there beforehand (though maybe someone can correct that). I at least haven't seen anyone make that move.

[Anonymous User]

If your OCI callback is significantly later than most (mid to late Feburary, this year, for example) does it seem likely that you don't actually have a shot at getting hired? Would firms cancel callbacks if their class was full?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

If your OCI callback is significantly later than most (mid to late Feburary, this year, for example) does it seem likely that you don't actually have a shot at getting hired? Would firms cancel callbacks if their class was full?

A firm would never waste attorney time with a callback if there wasn't a real chance of hiring the person.

I've never heard of a firm cancelling a callback due to a full class, though obviously the evaluation of the other candidates, and the yield of the offers, will affect your chances of getting an offer. It's important to remember that large firms proceed with many people at once because the target classes are just that--targets. If I want 50 summers for my firm, I might very well wind up with 47 or 53 and it's not going to be a big deal. All depends on the year-to-year variations in candidate quality and yield. Generally among the big firms it's considered more important to get the good ones than try to hit an exact number.

It depends on when your callback is in relation to similar candidates. If you're several weeks or more later than others from your school, it's usually because you're the second choice/waitlist candidate, and that's never as favorable as being the A1 choice (though again, they wouldn't bring in anyone who didn't have a real chance). I can't speak for recent years but in the past some schools, like Stanford, used to do their interviews much later than other schools. It certainly didn't *help* their students but it normally wasn't a major impediment. Conversely, some firms, like Latham NY, made a habit of regularly scheduling their callbacks several weeks/more than a month later than other firms (maybe they didn't have the infrastructure to handle their very large volume of candidates on the same timeline as other firms), and it wasn't any prejudice on the candidate's viability (except to the extent they often couldn't make offers before other open offers were going to expire).

[Anonymous User]

How do firms feel about journal editorial positions? Does it make an impact? (I'm not on law review)
I struck out at OCI so will be spending much of my 3L looking for a job, and I wanted to see if it is worth the time commitment.

[Anonymous User]

Does it mean anything to get another screener from a firm that's already rejected you once? Same location but different departments.

Is my previous rejection a disadvantage, or is the fact that they want to see me again despite the earlier rejection actually a good sign?

[Anonymous User]

OP.

If your OCI callback is significantly later than most (mid to late Feburary, this year, for example) does it seem likely that you don't actually have a shot at getting hired? Would firms cancel callbacks if their class was full?

Agreed with Monochromatic Oeuvre, on each of his points.

There's potentially an opportunity cost of a couple thousand bucks a firm takes in having their attorneys interview you instead of bill, and they wouldn't waste their time if there wasn't some point to it. Treat it like the legit callback it is.

How do firms feel about journal editorial positions? Does it make an impact? (I'm not on law review)
I struck out at OCI so will be spending much of my 3L looking for a job, and I wanted to see if it is worth the time commitment.

I really don't think any law firm will care. The tens of hours you might spend per month on journal duties are probably better spent on your job search.

Does it mean anything to get another screener from a firm that's already rejected you once? Same location but different departments.

Is my previous rejection a disadvantage, or is the fact that they want to see me again despite the earlier rejection actually a good sign?

Unless their recruiting team's really, REALLY sloppy, I'd be surprised if they weren't aware they were bringing you in a second time. That's a good thing, it means it's a calculated choice to bring you back.

Regardless, though, give it your full effort and treat it like you have a great shot (which you probably do). I don't know if they'll bring up that you already interviewed with the firm during the interview, which they might, but if it happens it's pretty easy to say you're still very much interested in the firm for X and Y reasons and you're also excited about the Z practice group.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Final bump for this thread, then I'll let this die if people don't have any further questions. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

OP. Final bump for this thread, then I'll let this die if people don't have any further questions. Thanks!

Thanks for doing this.

I'm a 2L heading to a firm in a market I have no ties to this summer that I don't plan to stay in (only offer, so it is what it is at this point). I'm hoping (perhaps naively) to position myself for another shot at my preferred market during 3L hiring, to the extent that's a thing. So, my question is sort of twofold: is changing firms after 2L (or attempting to at least) looked at skeptically, or is looking at firms in your home market coming off of a 2L summer someplace else pretty common? And, if you have any speculation for what 3L hiring will look like in the fall more generally, I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Final bump for this thread, then I'll let this die if people don't have any further questions. Thanks!

Thanks for doing this.

I'm a 2L heading to a firm in a market I have no ties to this summer that I don't plan to stay in (only offer, so it is what it is at this point). I'm hoping (perhaps naively) to position myself for another shot at my preferred market during 3L hiring, to the extent that's a thing. So, my question is sort of twofold: is changing firms after 2L (or attempting to at least) looked at skeptically, or is looking at firms in your home market coming off of a 2L summer someplace else pretty common? And, if you have any speculation for what 3L hiring will look like in the fall more generally, I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

OP.

Switching firms during 3L isn't looked at skeptically, you just need a clear narrative for why you want to make the switch. In your case, wanting to be in your home market is a perfectly good argument. Don't badmouth the firm you'll be summering at, just let the other firms know you've prioritized working closer to home and are interested in their particular firm because of X and Y.

I can't speak much to how 3L hiring will look during this particular hiring cycle, but just know that 3L hiring is meant to fill in any gaps in the summer class. For example, maybe a firm made a bunch of offers, but the people who accepted them were skewed toward litigation (and they need more corporate attorneys) -- in that case, they'll hire corporate people. As another example, maybe the Capital Markets practice group is way busier than expected, and they'd like to beef up the team to meet the unanticipated demand -- then they'll hire Cap Markets people. It's inherently hard to predict because every firm's needs may be a bit different.

I CAN say that a lot of firms are absurdly busy right now. I have friends putting in a ton of hours in M&A and Capital Markets right now. Firms also almost always need more Finance people (like syndicated bank loans, some firms might call this Credit or Banking or what have you). Hopefully that bodes well for you.

If I were you, I'd reach out to firms in your home market in the middle of your summer (not really sooner) and let them know that you're summering elsewhere but have decided you need to work in your home market upon graduation and would love to work for them. In non-COVID times, it could help to indicate that you'll be in that area after X date, since that may make it easier (and lower cost) for them to schedule interviews... though those interviews are probably all remote now, so don't bother stating that.

tl;dr the biggest obstacle you face securing these jobs isn't your reasons for wanting to switch, it's you not fitting whatever random hiring needs they may have.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Final bump for this thread, then I'll let this die if people don't have any further questions. Thanks!

Thanks for doing this.

I'm a 2L heading to a firm in a market I have no ties to this summer that I don't plan to stay in (only offer, so it is what it is at this point). I'm hoping (perhaps naively) to position myself for another shot at my preferred market during 3L hiring, to the extent that's a thing. So, my question is sort of twofold: is changing firms after 2L (or attempting to at least) looked at skeptically, or is looking at firms in your home market coming off of a 2L summer someplace else pretty common? And, if you have any speculation for what 3L hiring will look like in the fall more generally, I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

OP.

Switching firms during 3L isn't looked at skeptically, you just need a clear narrative for why you want to make the switch. In your case, wanting to be in your home market is a perfectly good argument. Don't badmouth the firm you'll be summering at, just let the other firms know you've prioritized working closer to home and are interested in their particular firm because of X and Y.

I can't speak much to how 3L hiring will look during this particular hiring cycle, but just know that 3L hiring is meant to fill in any gaps in the summer class. For example, maybe a firm made a bunch of offers, but the people who accepted them were skewed toward litigation (and they need more corporate attorneys) -- in that case, they'll hire corporate people. As another example, maybe the Capital Markets practice group is way busier than expected, and they'd like to beef up the team to meet the unanticipated demand -- then they'll hire Cap Markets people. It's inherently hard to predict because every firm's needs may be a bit different.

I CAN say that a lot of firms are absurdly busy right now. I have friends putting in a ton of hours in M&A and Capital Markets right now. Firms also almost always need more Finance people (like syndicated bank loans, some firms might call this Credit or Banking or what have you). Hopefully that bodes well for you.

If I were you, I'd reach out to firms in your home market in the middle of your summer (not really sooner) and let them know that you're summering elsewhere but have decided you need to work in your home market upon graduation and would love to work for them. In non-COVID times, it could help to indicate that you'll be in that area after X date, since that may make it easier (and lower cost) for them to schedule interviews... though those interviews are probably all remote now, so don't bother stating that.

tl;dr the biggest obstacle you face securing these jobs isn't your reasons for wanting to switch, it's you not fitting whatever random hiring needs they may have.

That makes sense. Really appreciate the response and advice.

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I was wondering that if I want to apply for a summer job after 1L, how much weight do the firms put on my undergrad GPA? I'm going to start law school at a 2nd tier school but long story short, my first undergrad GPA was pretty shit (and that was like >10 years ago). But I went back to school to boost my marks. Still very worried that the firms would look at my old marks.

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I was wondering that if I want to apply for a summer job after 1L, how much weight do the firms put on my undergrad GPA? I'm going to start law school at a 2nd tier school but long story short, my first undergrad GPA was pretty shit (and that was like >10 years ago). But I went back to school to boost my marks. Still very worried that the firms would look at my old marks.

OP here. Wow, I wasn't expecting to see a post in this thread.

Firms don't put any emphasis on your undergrad GPA. To my knowledge, Cravath is the only firm that even asks for an undergrad transcript, though they still don't particularly seem to care about what's on it. The other firms will literally never know your undergrad grades unless you state your GPA on your resume.

Don't sweat the undergrad transcript. You're a long way out, though, and you shouldn't think about this much until after you start law school.

[pineapplelaw]

Hello, I was wondering that if I want to apply for a summer job after 1L, how much weight do the firms put on my undergrad GPA? I'm going to start law school at a 2nd tier school but long story short, my first undergrad GPA was pretty shit (and that was like >10 years ago). But I went back to school to boost my marks. Still very worried that the firms would look at my old marks.

OP here. Wow, I wasn't expecting to see a post in this thread.

Firms don't put any emphasis on your undergrad GPA. To my knowledge, Cravath is the only firm that even asks for an undergrad transcript, though they still don't particularly seem to care about what's on it. The other firms will literally never know your undergrad grades unless you state your GPA on your resume.

Don't sweat the undergrad transcript. You're a long way out, though, and you shouldn't think about this much until after you start law school.

Thank you, that's cool

[Anonymous User]

How do firms look at candidates who are graduating in December? For personal reasons, I may have to take a diminished courseload next year and thus end up graduating a semester late, so I'll have to find something for the intervening summer. I'm at a T20 if that matters.

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I was wondering that if I want to apply for a summer job after 1L, how much weight do the firms put on my undergrad GPA? I'm going to start law school at a 2nd tier school but long story short, my first undergrad GPA was pretty shit (and that was like >10 years ago). But I went back to school to boost my marks. Still very worried that the firms would look at my old marks.

OP here. Wow, I wasn't expecting to see a post in this thread.

Firms don't put any emphasis on your undergrad GPA. To my knowledge, Cravath is the only firm that even asks for an undergrad transcript, though they still don't particularly seem to care about what's on it. The other firms will literally never know your undergrad grades unless you state your GPA on your resume.

Don't sweat the undergrad transcript. You're a long way out, though, and you shouldn't think about this much until after you start law school.

Not the OP, but also senior at a (I assume) different firm. This is likely true of big GP firms that are looking at you for corporate work (and thus, don't really care about what your education was before law school). But I wanted to caution that this is not true for all fields. For instance, IP (which is what I know) generally does care both about what your degree was in and how you did. Not to the extent that a tenth of a point in GPA is gonna make a difference, and the name on the degree is far more important than the numbers. But they will definitely consider it.

That said, I think your specific situation is different. Your first GPA is not going to matter as much because you have a pretty clear story to tell about why the second one is indicative of who you are today. You took the effort to go back 10 years out to show you had improved. That right there would tell me I should pay about as much attention to the earlier marks as I would to a K-JD candidate's middle school grades, it's just too removed from today to care. So even if you are considering a field that does care about undergrad GPA, you seem to have a good answer for it.

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I was wondering that if I want to apply for a summer job after 1L, how much weight do the firms put on my undergrad GPA? I'm going to start law school at a 2nd tier school but long story short, my first undergrad GPA was pretty shit (and that was like >10 years ago). But I went back to school to boost my marks. Still very worried that the firms would look at my old marks.

OP here. Wow, I wasn't expecting to see a post in this thread.

Firms don't put any emphasis on your undergrad GPA. To my knowledge, Cravath is the only firm that even asks for an undergrad transcript, though they still don't particularly seem to care about what's on it. The other firms will literally never know your undergrad grades unless you state your GPA on your resume.

Don't sweat the undergrad transcript. You're a long way out, though, and you shouldn't think about this much until after you start law school.

Not the OP, but also senior at a (I assume) different firm. This is likely true of big GP firms that are looking at you for corporate work (and thus, don't really care about what your education was before law school). But I wanted to caution that this is not true for all fields. For instance, IP (which is what I know) generally does care both about what your degree was in and how you did. Not to the extent that a tenth of a point in GPA is gonna make a difference, and the name on the degree is far more important than the numbers. But they will definitely consider it.

That said, I think your specific situation is different. Your first GPA is not going to matter as much because you have a pretty clear story to tell about why the second one is indicative of who you are today. You took the effort to go back 10 years out to show you had improved. That right there would tell me I should pay about as much attention to the earlier marks as I would to a K-JD candidate's middle school grades, it's just too removed from today to care. So even if you are considering a field that does care about undergrad GPA, you seem to have a good answer for it.

Thank you. That is very good to know.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because some ppl here can identify me IRL.

I'm a 4th year, and starting to feel some burnout from these years in biglaw. In two years I'll be a senior associate and not all that eager to have that experience. My wife and I are thinking of planning a 6-12 month break with the money we have to travel and try and experience life before it disappears amidst emails and draft headers. Would that effectively end any hope of coming back to biglaw? Have you seen this before? I'd like to think that I could come back at a lower midlevel status again.

[lolwutpar]

Anon because some ppl here can identify me IRL.

I'm a 4th year, and starting to feel some burnout from these years in biglaw. In two years I'll be a senior associate and not all that eager to have that experience. My wife and I are thinking of planning a 6-12 month break with the money we have to travel and try and experience life before it disappears amidst emails and draft headers. Would that effectively end any hope of coming back to biglaw? Have you seen this before? I'd like to think that I could come back at a lower midlevel status again.

As a first resort, I'd talk to your current firm/partners you work for. They won't "hold" your job (though they may for 6 months - perhaps an unpaid leave or sabbatical), but if you're well liked, they would very likely hire you back unless the market really goes south.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because some ppl here can identify me IRL.

I'm a 4th year, and starting to feel some burnout from these years in biglaw. In two years I'll be a senior associate and not all that eager to have that experience. My wife and I are thinking of planning a 6-12 month break with the money we have to travel and try and experience life before it disappears amidst emails and draft headers. Would that effectively end any hope of coming back to biglaw? Have you seen this before? I'd like to think that I could come back at a lower midlevel status again.

I'd talk to someone at your firm specifically. Depends entirely on the firm, but I was considering doing this a few years back around the same time as you (didn't end up doing it for personal reasons). My firm was fine with it, with the understanding that I wouldn't be paid during my leave of absence (since, you know, not working). What I wouldn't do is just quit and assume you can get a biglaw job somewhere else, but all indications I got were that they would be fine with me coming back at the end and had no issues from a logistics perspective.

However, you should probably consider whether the benefits of taking the leave outweigh the potential issues. For example, you are getting more senior, so you are going to need to start developing business yourself. So the question is not just whether your firm allows it, but the effect it will have on building a book of business. You also are losing 6 months of experience, and likely would not be keeping up with developments in your practice in the meantime. You are the best judge of whether you will be ready to provide the same quality work product when you come back. Regardless of whether you are allowed to do this, they will hold you to the same standards. Up to you to determine if it fits in your practice.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because some ppl here can identify me IRL.

I'm a 4th year, and starting to feel some burnout from these years in biglaw. In two years I'll be a senior associate and not all that eager to have that experience. My wife and I are thinking of planning a 6-12 month break with the money we have to travel and try and experience life before it disappears amidst emails and draft headers. Would that effectively end any hope of coming back to biglaw? Have you seen this before? I'd like to think that I could come back at a lower midlevel status again.

I'd talk to someone at your firm specifically. Depends entirely on the firm, but I was considering doing this a few years back around the same time as you (didn't end up doing it for personal reasons). My firm was fine with it, with the understanding that I wouldn't be paid during my leave of absence (since, you know, not working). What I wouldn't do is just quit and assume you can get a biglaw job somewhere else, but all indications I got were that they would be fine with me coming back at the end and had no issues from a logistics perspective.

However, you should probably consider whether the benefits of taking the leave outweigh the potential issues. For example, you are getting more senior, so you are going to need to start developing business yourself. So the question is not just whether your firm allows it, but the effect it will have on building a book of business. You also are losing 6 months of experience, and likely would not be keeping up with developments in your practice in the meantime. You are the best judge of whether you will be ready to provide the same quality work product when you come back. Regardless of whether you are allowed to do this, they will hold you to the same standards. Up to you to determine if it fits in your practice.

I had always considered the idea that I would either come back in a lower level as when I had left, to compensate loss of experience in that time. This is all interesting and helpful. It's all in the air now but we've had this in our heads for years now, and before we settle into a family seems like we would have to just try it for FOMO.

[Anonymous User]

Do grades matter at all for lateralling? If so, are there any rough guidelines for specific firms? Interested in the V15 in NYC. At a CCN and wondering if it's worth it to grind it out next year to have more options on the table if I want to move to another firm down the road - or if grades are a wash after law school. Thanks!