Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA Forum

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:46 am

Hi

I have a slightly different issue. I recently was extended a full time offer for a v100 firm and accepted at the end of last summer. Unfortunately, this last semester I became very ill and went to the ER on four occasions. In total, I lost about a month of my law school studies and was dropped by a professor for missing classes. To top it all off during my final exams which were done online, I experienced internet issues that prevented me from submitting my exams on time and took multiple days to fix. As a result, I received two C's, a D, and an F. This has lead to me being unable to graduate on time. I spoke with my main recruiting officer and she told me to articulate what happened and that she would get back to me. Do you think reaching out to partners and associates I had a close connection with would help in the firms ultimate decision on whether or not they will rescind my offer?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:20 am
I want to move to tech, either general tech transactions or even more focused like cybersecurity and data privacy from.... a niche within real estate finance/acquisitions, though I can always tailor my resume to not emphasize the niche. I don't care if it's a support group or primary group, used to both.

Beyond hating real estate (which I would never mention in an interview), it would be combining my passion with my career, which sounds incredible. In addition, I have significant client potential in tech due to family and family friend relationships. I think I'd really be holding myself back if I didn't transition. I did tech before law school, and I let my first firm pick my practice group for me and just silently did it for 5 years.

Typing this, it doesn't sound like a compelling reason at all. But it's compelling to me. It's my passion, and I'm confident that in X amount of years I'll look back and regret not making the switch.

I have zero issue with class cut. Can I mention class cuts in my cover letter or is that too desperate? I do have experience in tech transactions and cybersecurity. I regularly reach out to partners at my firm in the group and volunteer whenever they need help. I have some experience, just nothing like my current deal sheet.

If you have any advice at all about what you would need to hear to let a 4-6th year lateral to a new practice group, without displaying desperateness, I would greatly appreciate it.
You should definitely try, but firms may wonder why you stuck it out for 4-6 years first.

I can't offer much advice in terms of how to present the year cut, since I've never been a part of evaluating that. I think it's probably your biggest tool and also greatest difficulty for how to present. This may actually be one of those times that talking to a recruiter may be helpful. You can ask them for input on how to present a year cut before actually committing to anyone (they only get a commission if they send in your resume to the firm, I believe), so it's worth talking to a few to get their take.

It's good that you have some misc. experience in tech transactions/privacy though, because that'll help a lot with your narrative.

Realistically, though, this switch is gonna be a grind on your part. I think a recruiter might actually help out a lot. Just do your diligence and don't run with a bad one.
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:46 am
Hi

I have a slightly different issue. I recently was extended a full time offer for a v100 firm and accepted at the end of last summer. Unfortunately, this last semester I became very ill and went to the ER on four occasions. In total, I lost about a month of my law school studies and was dropped by a professor for missing classes. To top it all off during my final exams which were done online, I experienced internet issues that prevented me from submitting my exams on time and took multiple days to fix. As a result, I received two C's, a D, and an F. This has lead to me being unable to graduate on time. I spoke with my main recruiting officer and she told me to articulate what happened and that she would get back to me. Do you think reaching out to partners and associates I had a close connection with would help in the firms ultimate decision on whether or not they will rescind my offer?
No. An associate's going to have zero say beyond forwarding your email to someone else (don't burden them with this and place them in an awkward position where they're not sure what to do), and it's even questionable if a partner could move the needle any. Realistically, they're evaluating their firm policies and coming to an administrative decision, rather than this being a balancing act of "we like him but he won't graduate on time for reasons."

I get wanting to do everything you can to prevent them from rescinding your offer, but this is pretty delicate. Keep up your dialogue with the recruiting team but I can't recommend reaching out to attorneys in good conscience.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:20 pm

Who do firms pick to be the interviewer? Is it random and whoever has time?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:20 pm
Who do firms pick to be the interviewer? Is it random and whoever has time?
Yeah, pretty much, for callbacks. Everything's subject to who has availability. For that reason, they'll usually ask attorneys for availability semi-last minute, so there's less risk of people having to back out.

That said, they generally do try to line up a group targeted toward your interests somewhat (subject to them being available). For example, if you mentioned at the screener you were all-in on corporate, it's probably going to be all corporate people. If you say you're torn, you might get half and half.

Cravath has a callback setup where the hiring partner's supposed to be the last one who speaks to every single callback interviewer, though.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:41 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:20 am
I want to move to tech, either general tech transactions or even more focused like cybersecurity and data privacy from.... a niche within real estate finance/acquisitions, though I can always tailor my resume to not emphasize the niche. I don't care if it's a support group or primary group, used to both.

Beyond hating real estate (which I would never mention in an interview), it would be combining my passion with my career, which sounds incredible. In addition, I have significant client potential in tech due to family and family friend relationships. I think I'd really be holding myself back if I didn't transition. I did tech before law school, and I let my first firm pick my practice group for me and just silently did it for 5 years.

Typing this, it doesn't sound like a compelling reason at all. But it's compelling to me. It's my passion, and I'm confident that in X amount of years I'll look back and regret not making the switch.

I have zero issue with class cut. Can I mention class cuts in my cover letter or is that too desperate? I do have experience in tech transactions and cybersecurity. I regularly reach out to partners at my firm in the group and volunteer whenever they need help. I have some experience, just nothing like my current deal sheet.

If you have any advice at all about what you would need to hear to let a 4-6th year lateral to a new practice group, without displaying desperateness, I would greatly appreciate it.

Realistically, though, this switch is gonna be a grind on your part. I think a recruiter might actually help out a lot. Just do your diligence and don't run with a bad one.
I just wanted to clarify one point on this. Are you recommending I just speak to one for their opinion (as you mentioned earlier in your post) or actually go through a recruiter? I wouldn't mind using one, as they can obviously discuss all this with the firm recruiter/hiring partner/practice group head without me having to do it and sounding desperate, but I don't want to have a recruiter fee over my head if it's going to make me even more unattractive when I'm already battling with the practice group change.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:27 pm
I just wanted to clarify one point on this. Are you recommending I just speak to one for their opinion (as you mentioned earlier in your post) or actually go through a recruiter? I wouldn't mind using one, as they can obviously discuss all this with the firm recruiter/hiring partner/practice group head without me having to do it and sounding desperate, but I don't want to have a recruiter fee over my head if it's going to make me even more unattractive when I'm already battling with the practice group change.
Speak to one at a minimum for advice.

If they seem smart, informed and diligent, then think about using them. Figuring out how to best approach your year cut situation is worth any recruiter fee (I don't think firms sweat this all that much, usually). If you do use a recruiter, use one who's helped someone through your exact situation before (i.e., a switch to tech transactions with a year cut involved).

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:00 am

So I know questions about billable hour requirements and work life stuff are generally and obviously red flags, but what if I am applying to a mid-law firm specifically because it has a reputation of offering better lifestyle? Supposed I have very good credentials, so its clearly not a question of going to midlaw because i cant get a biglaw offer, but because i want to have a life. Is citing a lifestyle in this case an acceptable answer to "why are you applying here?" Likewise, do you think actively asking about whether the reputation is true or not is red-flag raising?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:00 am
So I know questions about billable hour requirements and work life stuff are generally and obviously red flags, but what if I am applying to a mid-law firm specifically because it has a reputation of offering better lifestyle? Supposed I have very good credentials, so its clearly not a question of going to midlaw because i cant get a biglaw offer, but because i want to have a life. Is citing a lifestyle in this case an acceptable answer to "why are you applying here?" Likewise, do you think actively asking about whether the reputation is true or not is red-flag raising?
Sure, cite lifestyle for midlaw.

I don't think asking "if the reputation is true" is a good way to check on this, though. Ask them what a typical day looks like. If someone else moved from big law to this mid law firm, ask them about the switch. If they proclaim their pride in their work-life balance directly, then scratch the foregoing, you have free reign to probe into that a bit more directly.

Just don't make it seem like it's a place where they don't work and that's your main reason for coming.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by popcorn123 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:51 pm

So are billable hours and work-life balance also red flags/taboo topics at return visit?
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:00 am
So I know questions about billable hour requirements and work life stuff are generally and obviously red flags, but what if I am applying to a mid-law firm specifically because it has a reputation of offering better lifestyle? Supposed I have very good credentials, so its clearly not a question of going to midlaw because i cant get a biglaw offer, but because i want to have a life. Is citing a lifestyle in this case an acceptable answer to "why are you applying here?" Likewise, do you think actively asking about whether the reputation is true or not is red-flag raising?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:01 pm

popcorn123 wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:51 pm
So are billable hours and work-life balance also red flags/taboo topics at return visit?
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:00 am
So I know questions about billable hour requirements and work life stuff are generally and obviously red flags, but what if I am applying to a mid-law firm specifically because it has a reputation of offering better lifestyle? Supposed I have very good credentials, so its clearly not a question of going to midlaw because i cant get a biglaw offer, but because i want to have a life. Is citing a lifestyle in this case an acceptable answer to "why are you applying here?" Likewise, do you think actively asking about whether the reputation is true or not is red-flag raising?
No. Ask whatever you want after you have an offer.

I'm not saying it's completely taboo either during the interview process, just be tactful about it. You can ask whatever you want as long as it doesn't scream, "How little work can I get away with?" as they decide who will help grow their business. I've outlined plenty of ways to do that.

Does that make sense? Use your common sense here.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:54 pm
CLS 2L here, thank you OP for the helpful thread.

A niche question for you: thoughts on use of self-deprecation during OCI interviews? My tendency especially when nervous is to slip in a few little self-deprecating jokes. Would you (or the generic interviewer) find that off-putting? I know the point of these interviews is to ‘sell yourself,’ and I don’t want people to think the self-deprecation is a mask for insecurity.

(For what it’s worth, I’m a strong candidate on paper, 3.8+, solid work experience, etc.)
OP here. A couple would work perfectly fine for me, but I wouldn't make a TON to the point you're overwhelmingly negative about yourself. In short, no sweat if a couple come out without you thinking.

Like the other person said, likeability comes first and foremost (especially at the callback stage). If I generally like you and would like to work with you, I'll push for you, even if your grades are weaker (so long as they're not truly bottom of the barrel). If you come off pretentious and lazy, I'll vote no, even if you have a 3.8. A self-deprecating joke or two doesn't move the needle much on the spectrum. Congrats on the grades and hope it goes great soon.

For what it's worth, you'll feel much more comfortable with interviews after the first day of your OCI, and that should help you feel less nervous. It's only going to get easier.
My experience is that law firm interviews are generally competitive BSing, probably with bad results for diversity and probably counterproductively (see Lauren Rivera at Northwestern's work on it). Unfortunately law firms that try to do it differently, like White & Case, generally end up in a different sort of BS, endless behaviorals.
I read her book Pedigree a few months after my (pretty horrible) OCI experience, and it made so much sense. I was way too naive going into the whole experience, and that hurt me. Highly recommend at least reading about it, especially if you're coming from lower-ranked law schools or lesser known undergrad or a small town or something.
I haven't read this, sadly, and honestly didn't know it was out there, but I'll look this up sometime!
"so long as they're not truly bottom of the barrel"
What does this mean? I am very confused by the callback stage. I have been offered two callbacks at firms (two v20s) with cutoffs weigh above my gpa which is a 3.0 Why is this? Do I actually have a shot? In your experience do firms hand out cbs and eventual offers to candidates way below the gpa threshhold? And lastly what would bottom of the barrel be for you?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:12 pm

How does stuttering come across in interviews (actual speech impedient, not just word mixup)? Obviously depends on how severe, but I was wondering your general thoughts if you had any.

I chose a client facing career and know I have to deal that.

Anon because I'm interviewing and don't want anyone at my firm to know that.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:50 pm

Bit of a unique question, not directly related to hiring. If you had struck out at OCI, would you have dropped out of law school?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:05 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:06 pm
What is the selection process for applicants to interview for lateral hires? Do recruiters select you from a pile and then schedule an interview? Or do the partners select people to interview and then recruiters contact?
Changes firm by firm.

I think the most common scenario's that a hiring partner takes a look at the resumes/etc. that come in, and then decides who they'd like to bring in for a first interview. In some cases, that resume stack could be pre-screened slightly by the firm's own recruiting/HR team, though if they do at all I imagine they apply a very light hand.

There's really a ton of variation here, though. I'm sure the process at Kirkland or Paul Weiss (i.e., places where they bring in a boatload of laterals, and have gigantic associate classes) is substantially different than a place like Proskauer.
Is it really true that once you get a callback you've met the base requirements for the job? I have a callback at a firm that is known for being quite grade selective at my school and I fall under the "floor" that most 3Ls have told me the firm has. I expected to get rejected after my screener, but moved on. Just trying to not get my hopes up too much if it's unlikely to result in an offer.
Why are you deciding for them? If they saw fit to bring you back in, you have, at the minimum, a fighting chance. You really should take a different attitude here.

If you get a callback, someone thought highly of you in spite of your grades. It's not a light decision to decide to bring someone back for a callback. It would be odd to waste several lawyers' time (who could be billing $1,000+/hour) to see someone that never had a chance. I mean this in a good way, I promise - prep hard and don't sweat the grades here. Whether or not your grades impact your callback interviewers' decisions is firm by firm is a firm by firm (or interviewer by interviewer) decision, so there's a chance it's not entirely meaningless, but try anyway.

A couple notes here:
  • A lot of times, your callback interviewers may not even see your transcript. They may just get your resume. If your resume doesn't specify your GPA, your interviewer may never know your grades (absent some indication of honors on your resume).
  • The above isn't categorical. My first law firm gave full copies of all materials, including transcripts, to each interviewer. That said, even if this is the case at whatever firm you're interviewing with, your grades will be de-prioritized (at a minimum). Speaking as someone who did a lot of interviews, you generally want to trust the decision of your colleagues to bring the person back in the first place, and you're much more inclined to focus on fit and whether or not you'd want to work with that person.
  • On the flip side, I can promise I've never thought, "This guy was a lackluster interviewer, but he had straight As, so let's give him an offer." Literally never. A bad interview is a hard no no matter what the grades. A lot of people who were Kent Scholars (i.e., top 3-5% at Columbia) didn't get offers at my firms, and a lot of people who weren't Kent did.
Good luck and congrats on the callback. At worst, it's great interview prep, and at best you get a great job. There's no downside to trying.
Bolded anon, just want to say I ended up with the offer and am incredibly glad I gave it my best shot! I think it was one of my best interviews ever (and it was a long callback) and I received an offer 2 days later! Hope this helps others in the future!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:53 am

"so long as they're not truly bottom of the barrel"
What does this mean? I am very confused by the callback stage. I have been offered two callbacks at firms (two v20s) with cutoffs weigh above my gpa which is a 3.0 Why is this? Do I actually have a shot? In your experience do firms hand out cbs and eventual offers to candidates way below the gpa threshhold? And lastly what would bottom of the barrel be for you?
You actually have a shot, see my earlier post on this (which the guy before me just now quoted). You should 100% put your best foot forward and not assume you're doomed.

As for the "not truly bottom of the barrel" statement, my point is that even if I like you, it may be harder for me to convince others of the same if you have grades below the discretionary thresholds, etc. For example, if you have three B-s at Columbia, something really bad happened and it's harder for me to reasonably tell Cravath, "Trust me, this guy's amazing."
How does stuttering come across in interviews (actual speech impedient, not just word mixup)? Obviously depends on how severe, but I was wondering your general thoughts if you had any.

I chose a client facing career and know I have to deal that.

Anon because I'm interviewing and don't want anyone at my firm to know that.
For me, personally, I take zero issue with stuttering if it doesn't seem to be accompanied by crippling social anxiety.

If you stutter, take your time when answering questions. Don't cut your responses short because you're afraid you'll continue to stutter (e.g., "I'd love to hear more about your 1L summer. What was it like working at the DOJ?" "Good" vs. a more fleshed-out response, regardless of how much you stutter). You can stutter but still convey that you're sharp, poised and thoughtful.

I'd love to say that stuttering doesn't matter at all in all cases (and it shouldn't, legally), but just put your best foot forward. Anecdotally, a guy in my law school class had a very strong speech impediment and the social anxiety to boot and ended up at Paul Hastings, where he still is. Haven't spoken to him since graduation but hope he's doing well.
Bit of a unique question, not directly related to hiring. If you had struck out at OCI, would you have dropped out of law school?
Oh man. I saw it happen to a couple friends. I can't say for certain but I don't think so, largely because it was still possible to land a good job (esp. big law) for Columbia... people were still hiring, you just had to hustle quite a bit harder with mass mailing, reaching out and such. I don't consider hiring season over for a while after OCI.

If I were at a low-ranked law school, and by the end of 2L had no job lined up, poor grades and tons of student debt, I might drop out. If I had a full ride or a ton of aid I'd probably stick it out and hustle. Plenty of great legal jobs out there, just not big law.

Take all of the above with a grain of salt. This is just me. My family's not well-off and I wouldn't have a fallback plan if I came out unemployed. There are a lot of individual circumstances that can affect this decision.
Bolded anon, just want to say I ended up with the offer and am incredibly glad I gave it my best shot! I think it was one of my best interviews ever (and it was a long callback) and I received an offer 2 days later! Hope this helps others in the future!
Best news to hear. Couldn't be happier for you.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:29 am

1.Hey for NY firms are timelines for hires from diversity fairs any different? 2. What are the logistics of hires from fairs like NEBLSA?

3. Also, do firms make offers to everyone from the same school at once? For example lets say an individual were to interview with a firm through a diversity fair prior to their school's OCI - would their potential offer align with whenever the firm makes offers to others at their school?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:27 pm

A firm recruiter just rejected me after a CB by telling me that they were not extending any more offers, and then added me on LinkedIn. Can you or anyone else tell me what this means, lol

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:29 am
1.Hey for NY firms are timelines for hires from diversity fairs any different? 2. What are the logistics of hires from fairs like NEBLSA?

3. Also, do firms make offers to everyone from the same school at once? For example lets say an individual were to interview with a firm through a diversity fair prior to their school's OCI - would their potential offer align with whenever the firm makes offers to others at their school?
No clue how these hires play out for this year, with COVID and the weird timing and all, but typically diversity fairs happen early in the OCI season (or even before most schools' OCI events). That means that maybe the firms' recruiting teams and interviewers have more time to get you feedback quicker and make an offer sooner. That's about it, really... if diversity fairs are after most schools' OCI things this year, that sucks.

Not sure what you mean by logistics but happy to answer if you clarify that. My impression is they go through apretty similar process to most other applicants.

I can say with certainty that firms don't make offers to everyone from the same school at once (though I guess an individual firm could decide to do this, but it'd be strange and they'd be an exception). You'd likely receive an offer before the others from your school, and I think NALP guidelines require firms to keep offers open for a preset amount of time after the actual OCI date (not from the date of your original offer), though double-check that last bit. The only caveat is that a lot of firms will try to meet once a week or similar to discuss your feedback and finalize offers. If your fair isn't that far before your school's OCI, maybe you and the others from your school get covered in the same meeting and the response timing will be no different.
A firm recruiter just rejected me after a CB by telling me that they were not extending any more offers, and then added me on LinkedIn. Can you or anyone else tell me what this means, lol
That means the recruiter is weird. Jesus.

Maybe they want to expand their LinkedIn connections to current law students or something, but the optics of that are pretty bad. The only other thing I can think of is that they did that thing where they add all of their email contacts. I wouldn't read much into it.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 pm

Hey, thanks for doing this. I'm a 1L at CLS and have a question about grades for V10 firms. Once you hit Stone (but fall below Kent), does it matter how much higher you are for the big NYC firms (Cravath, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc.)? As in, is a 3.4 treated differently than a 3.6 for recruiting purposes?

Also, to the extent you can speak to this: do non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell? Currently sitting at an A- average and, god willing, might be able to inch it up to 3.7, but a 3.8 is just eons away lol. I have a background in non-elite finance/consulting and did undergraduate research in the M&A/corporate governance space so I think I might be able to communicate a tailored interest in what the firm does. But I know grades are king...just don't know how far down Wachtell might dip at CLS. Thanks again!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 pm
Hey, thanks for doing this. I'm a 1L at CLS and have a question about grades for V10 firms. Once you hit Stone (but fall below Kent), does it matter how much higher you are for the big NYC firms (Cravath, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc.)? As in, is a 3.4 treated differently than a 3.6 for recruiting purposes?

Also, to the extent you can speak to this: do non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell? Currently sitting at an A- average and, god willing, might be able to inch it up to 3.7, but a 3.8 is just eons away lol. I have a background in non-elite finance/consulting and did undergraduate research in the M&A/corporate governance space so I think I might be able to communicate a tailored interest in what the firm does. But I know grades are king...just don't know how far down Wachtell might dip at CLS. Thanks again!
CLS student here. S&C does seem to favor 3.6 and is probably the most selective outside of Wachtell for NY firms. Wachtell favors Kent unless you hit one or more of their other desired traits (e.g. elite undergrad, Law Review, targeted minority, elite business experience).

However, all of that should be moot because no one but the most boring non-persons should apply to Wachtell, which engulfs your life and deprives you of the opportunity to be human. But that is another story.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 pm
Hey, thanks for doing this. I'm a 1L at CLS and have a question about grades for V10 firms. Once you hit Stone (but fall below Kent), does it matter how much higher you are for the big NYC firms (Cravath, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc.)? As in, is a 3.4 treated differently than a 3.6 for recruiting purposes?

Also, to the extent you can speak to this: do non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell? Currently sitting at an A- average and, god willing, might be able to inch it up to 3.7, but a 3.8 is just eons away lol. I have a background in non-elite finance/consulting and did undergraduate research in the M&A/corporate governance space so I think I might be able to communicate a tailored interest in what the firm does. But I know grades are king...just don't know how far down Wachtell might dip at CLS. Thanks again!
Wachtell has given offers to non-Kent students at CLS before, but since they offer about 4 people a year, I encourage you to not put them on a pedestal; especially before you have an understanding of the work they do and what it requires.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:11 pm

Different CLS 1L here also with an A- avg. after first semester (+ scored an HP in LPW if that counts for anything lol).

Tagging on though, outside S&C, is low Stone sufficient for the others just below that range (Cravath, PW, maybe DPW/Cleary)? How about for getting to DC? Think: A&P, GDC, Cleary, Skadden - not W&C or Covington (Not quite as ambitious as the last poster here & definitely not counting on raising my GPA). Thanks!
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:36 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 pm
Hey, thanks for doing this. I'm a 1L at CLS and have a question about grades for V10 firms. Once you hit Stone (but fall below Kent), does it matter how much higher you are for the big NYC firms (Cravath, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc.)? As in, is a 3.4 treated differently than a 3.6 for recruiting purposes?

Also, to the extent you can speak to this: do non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell? Currently sitting at an A- average and, god willing, might be able to inch it up to 3.7, but a 3.8 is just eons away lol. I have a background in non-elite finance/consulting and did undergraduate research in the M&A/corporate governance space so I think I might be able to communicate a tailored interest in what the firm does. But I know grades are king...just don't know how far down Wachtell might dip at CLS. Thanks again!
CLS student here. S&C does seem to favor 3.6 and is probably the most selective outside of Wachtell for NY firms. Wachtell favors Kent unless you hit one or more of their other desired traits (e.g. elite undergrad, Law Review, targeted minority, elite business experience).

However, all of that should be moot because no one but the most boring non-persons should apply to Wachtell, which engulfs your life and deprives you of the opportunity to be human. But that is another story.
Someone's salty.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:36 pm
However, all of that should be moot because no one but the most boring non-persons should apply to Wachtell, which engulfs your life and deprives you of the opportunity to be human. But that is another story.
Someone's salty.
About what? Where is the lie?

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 pm
Hey, thanks for doing this. I'm a 1L at CLS and have a question about grades for V10 firms. Once you hit Stone (but fall below Kent), does it matter how much higher you are for the big NYC firms (Cravath, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc.)? As in, is a 3.4 treated differently than a 3.6 for recruiting purposes?

Also, to the extent you can speak to this: do non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell? Currently sitting at an A- average and, god willing, might be able to inch it up to 3.7, but a 3.8 is just eons away lol. I have a background in non-elite finance/consulting and did undergraduate research in the M&A/corporate governance space so I think I might be able to communicate a tailored interest in what the firm does. But I know grades are king...just don't know how far down Wachtell might dip at CLS. Thanks again!
CLS 2L/3L here. To be completely honest — yes, I think a 3.4 is treated differently than a 3.6 at this tier of firm (i.e., it makes a difference not only at S&C, but also at Cravath, DPW, Cleary, etc.). GPA is not just a soft threshold for these firms; it's also a sliding scale. If you go into EIP/WIP with a 3.4, I do think you have to sell yourself somewhat better, demonstrate higher interest in the firm, have better WE, have better poise/presence, and so on vs. the 3.6 candidate. That's not to say the 3.4 is dead in the water or that the 3.6 is a shoe-in, just that the bar you have to clear moves up or down a little bit.

I'd echo the advice about not fixating on Wachtell. It takes just a handful (like 4-6 people) from CLS each each year, so it's not only extremely grade-selective, but selective on a whole other set of other dimensions (e.g., pre-law school finance WE, demonstrated interest in public M&A — things that are basically proxies for "able and willing to work 2,700+ billable hours per year"). Just having the grades is not enough: I applied with a GPA >4.0 and didn't receive an offer. Conversely, I imagine that Wachtell would strongly consider somebody with a marginal GPA (marginal meaning 3.7) if that candidate had BB IB experience. And a 4-6 cohort is small enough that there's also some inherent randomness in the process.

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