Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I'm actually more curious about the media job, how'd you get it? What was your biglaw background?

As a junior, what are the pros and cons of getting involved in recruiting, associates committee, etc?

I got it by applying to a LinkedIn posting, actually. I didn't mean to leave the firm exactly when I did (I was planning on trying the next year) but I really liked the particular posting I saw and figured I might as well shoot my shot. I would flag that my experience is atypical, though -- most people spend several months or more looking for the right in-house job opportunity. There are just fewer openings than there are for law firms, and even if you secure an offer it might not be the right fit (e.g., benefits like maternity leave can range wildly between companies, the team isn't for you, etc.).

As far as background, I did general corporate at my first firm, mostly M&A but with a rotation in cap markets/finance. At the second firm, I did mostly M&A with some choice tech transactions work on the side. The slight tech transactions background I had was helpful with securing my current job (I've been told), but in general, M&A or ECVC work will definitely make securing a general corporate in-house job the easiest (compared to CapM or finance or something else). My wife now has a product counsel role at a tech company that she loves but came from an M&A background. I have a couple friends that now work on managing different TV/live-streaming platforms that came from M&A backgrounds (and had zero experience with media distribution agreements or similar beforehand).

* It's not impossible to get a great or general corporate legal job from a non-M&A/VC background. It's just harder to and your options will be narrower.

Re: recruiting, I got involved mostly because I somehow find it fun. I liked the thought of bringing people into my firm that I thought would make it a better place -- if the firm has good, pleasant juniors who want to be there, everyone's happy. If you find this sort of thing a hassle, though, it's definitely not worth it. It's usually non-billable time that you don't get back. Even a few hours a month (going upward during the summer) can be hard sometimes considering these obligations can sometimes come up in the middle of the day at inconvenient times.

I'm doing international trade/national security/IP at a firm this summer but the firm is under market. I want to try my hand at 3L OCI/mass mailing to "level up" ( cringe, i know) but don't know how doable that is because I don't want to be flexible in terms of practice area. Do I network while I'm in the city this summer? Is it even worth tossing my hat in the ring given how narrow my interests are?

And in the future, if I choose to lateral (T6, below-median grades) how bad will those grades look if the lateral is for a specialty group?

It can't hurt to try. I don't think you have anything to lose by applying/networking.

I will say it's hard and largely outside your control, though. Candidly, whether or not you succeed with 3L hiring will depend on whether a relevant firm happens to need to fill out their summer class in your particular niche area. For them to want to fill that slot, they'll have to either have (1) underhired for their summer class, (2) lost a particularly relevant summer in that niche (to a clerkship, other firm, who knows what), (3) expect work in your niche to flare up around your start date, or (4) some mix of the above.

It's not uncommon for law firms to want 1-2 3L hires (vs. the 30-100+ summers they have) but only in some particular field, like, "We want an employee benefits 3L and a bankruptcy 3L, and we don't need any others." It's a lot less like 2L OCI where they're more generally open to competent people across the board. It's only after they determine they want a new 3L hire that your own qualifications, interviewing ability, etc. comes into play.

That said, absolutely try. It helps that you have a very clear interest in your particular field, and you never know which firm might need someone. If you don't land an offer but they generally like you, it might be possible to reopen the lateral conversation a couple years down the line, too. tl;dr: Don't expect to succeed but I'd strongly recommend putting your best foot forward this summer, there's not much to regret.

Re: lateraling, grades generally don't matter that much for lateral hires. Certainly not as much as they do for you now. A couple firms (like Gibson, maybe Covington if you're in DC) may pay some attention but lateral hiring is much more focused on what kind of work you'd been doing at your last firm and how competent you seem at that work. The grades may factor in somewhat if you try to lateral after only like a year, but if you lateral at the 2.5-3 year mark, there should be ample experience/work product for them to focus much more on that.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Bumping because I'm fairly free today (and maybe more law school finals are done this week? no clue).

[Anonymous User]

OP. Bumping because I'm fairly free today (and maybe more law school finals are done this week? no clue).

How do you evaluate candidates applying as 3Ls? I am doing my summer at a V5 firm and (potentially - god damn I hope not) have a need to be in a city the firm i am summering in does not have an office in. What should I do

[Anonymous User]

OP.

How do you evaluate candidates applying as 3Ls? I am doing my summer at a V5 firm and (potentially - god damn I hope not) have a need to be in a city the firm i am summering in does not have an office in. What should I do

I actually went through this scare myself when I was in 2L.

I'd send other firms in this potential area (via a friend or connection if possible, but a cold email is perfectly fine) an email explaining you like the firm, need to be in that area post-graduation, and would like a chance to interview with them if at all possible. It can't hurt to flag that you'll be in that area from X to Y dates, since that means they can interview you without having to pay you to fly out and such. Caveat to the last sentence -- this was a bigger deal when I was in law school... maybe it's a more negligible "pro" post-COVID, since remote interviews may be much more common.

Re: evaluation, I'd evaluate them similarly to how I did for 2L candidates. The one difference is you've probably done actual work related to my practice area during your summer, but if anything, that makes your interview even easier (in terms of being able to talk about what you'd like to do at the firm, what makes it a good fit for you, etc.). You'll get some more questions about what you worked on, but the goal's still just to see if you're diligent and would fit into the team. Nobody's expecting you to run a deal your 2L summer, but an interviewer can generally tell if you cared enough about your work to understand what was happening on a super-high level and did your part.

Just make sure you convey you're dead set on the other location.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Bump for now.

[Anonymous User]

Last bump for the summer then I'll let this one fade away.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for doing this OP! I was just wondering how I should interpret a "soft rejection."
I applied early to a firm that is actively doing pre-oci and received an email that said they don't have space to interview for pre-oci but encouraged to bid on them during OCI.
Granted, my GPA is not my strongest selling point. Do I still have a chance on them during OCI, or am I already on their reject list since they've screened me out based on my papers?
I guess I have nothing to lose to bid on them again but just wanted to evaluate my chances.

Thanks again for doing this!

[Anonymous User]

Last bump for the summer then I'll let this one fade away.

At what point as a junior associate would it be impossible to switch practice groups through a lateral move from another v15ish firm? As in, M&A to White Collar or something of that ilk.

[Anonymous User]

Any tips for 3Ls who are applying for entry-level associate positions? How often do you recommend to follow up with the recruiter, and any advice on what should I mention? I know the priority right now is 2L hiring, but I want to show my continued interest.

[Anonymous User]

For summers, how great were the distinctions between gpa cutoffs for different t14 schools? Was someone from say, Michigan, looked at much differently than someone from Penn given roughly the same grades?

I know this is a relatively basic question, but would love to hear it explained from someone directly involved in hiring.

[Anonymous User]

OP.

Thank you for doing this OP! I was just wondering how I should interpret a "soft rejection."
I applied early to a firm that is actively doing pre-oci and received an email that said they don't have space to interview for pre-oci but encouraged to bid on them during OCI.
Granted, my GPA is not my strongest selling point. Do I still have a chance on them during OCI, or am I already on their reject list since they've screened me out based on my papers?
I guess I have nothing to lose to bid on them again but just wanted to evaluate my chances.

Thanks again for doing this!

It could be anything, but they probably mean what they say.

Pre-OCI interviews are a little more common now than when I was in law school, but when I was in your shoes, I had a couple firms tell me exactly what they told you and I ended up getting a callback from one and an offer from the other after the regular OCI process. For one, I didn't get a screener through bidding but replied to the "pre-OCI rejection email" saying I'd still love to interview but didn't manage to land a regular interview -- they offered to cram me in at the end of one of the OCI days. Like you said, you've got nothing to lose.

Separately, you didn't really ask about this, but if your GPA's not perfect the most important thing (by far) is your bid list strategy. Your bid list is way more important than even your interviewing skills, because someone with 15, 20, 20+ interviews for firms that will realistically take them is almost guaranteed to get a job while someone with 5-10 may fall short for reasons beyond their control (just didn't click with the interviewers, etc.). Think of it like having 20 darts to throw at a dart board vs. having 3 darts, where you only need to land one on the board to win.

The takeaway, then, if nothing else -- please try to maximize the number of interviews you have with firms that would realistically take you. (I don't mean to only bid firms that take everyone, necessarily, but if you're the bottom 25% of your class at most law schools then do not, under any circumstance, waste one of your first 5-10 bids on a firm like Cravath, Gibson Dunn, etc.).

At what point as a junior associate would it be impossible to switch practice groups through a lateral move from another v15ish firm? As in, M&A to White Collar or something of that ilk.

It's more likely the more junior you are, but if you haven't done it by your third year I'd guess your odds have gotten ridiculously slim. I'd do it sooner rather than later? And if you really hate your job just try for it anyway. Maybe you have slightly better odds if you clerk after a couple years then attempt to move over to white collar/lit. A friend of mine clerked after 2.5 years of M&A/Cap Markets then went to Patterson Belknap. Another did two years of general Corp then moved to Vinson & Elkins. You can't be picky with what firm you land at, though, you have to go for it wherever there's an opening (or else you're setting yourself up for disappointment).

The caveat -- I've seen a lot more people be successful moving from L&E/employment litigation to employee benefits/exec comp on the transactional side, or from a Tech Transactions-type practice (or science background) to patent lit. Those are more about having a slightly specialized background and moving to a different practice that takes advantage of the same specialized background, though, then what you seem to be asking (M&A to white collar).

Any tips for 3Ls who are applying for entry-level associate positions? How often do you recommend to follow up with the recruiter, and any advice on what should I mention? I know the priority right now is 2L hiring, but I want to show my continued interest.

Apply to anything and everything. It's way more out of your control than it was in 2L. It's hard because they may only be hiring for select practice groups (i.e., they have enough people from their summer program coming back for most roles, but they really need someone for bankruptcy or capital markets or something like that). If your interests don't jive with the firm's needs, it's not your fault, but you might be out of luck.

This means hustle. I've seen 3L OCI work out well for a few friends but they really had to hustle for a little while. The hustle doesn't end once your school's official OCI program ends; keep emailing people, keep looking out for jobs until it works out. One friend got her job in like March of 3L, though it's at a great firm she loves. The hustle is far more important than your GPA (you have nothing to lose by just applying). Other than that, look out for firms that are actively trying to grow in certain areas (e.g., a firm traditionally strong in lit, but looking to build out its corporate practice or something like that).

You might see postings for firms looking to hire specifically only for niche groups (like "we need an employee benefits person now," or "are you in bankruptcy? great."

As for following up with the firm recruiters, you likely are just off their radar right now. They're swamped with the summer program, and they'll probably hold off on most 3L interviews until after that ends (so they can see how many summers accept their offers, which groups have more people headed that direction, whether some on-the-fence summers chose lit or corp, etc.). I'd follow up more aggressively after the summer program ends.

For summers, how great were the distinctions between gpa cutoffs for different t14 schools? Was someone from say, Michigan, looked at much differently than someone from Penn given roughly the same grades?

I know this is a relatively basic question, but would love to hear it explained from someone directly involved in hiring.

No real difference for peer schools (certainly not for the two in your example).

Most law firms' grade cut-offs aren't numerical/fixed. It's more of a "soft" impression on whomever's doing the interview and/or whomever's deciding whether your screener should convert to a callback based on that feedback (i.e., the hiring partner), meaning that the "cut-off" might change based on who your screening interviewer is and who the hiring partner is. In that sense, it's kind of like an instant impression of "potentially competent" or "no chance" than a careful balancing act. Ex. The feedback on screener candidates I saw generally read more like, "GPA's particularly bad" rather than "He seems diligent and interested, but he's got a 3.3 instead of a 3.4."

Neither of the firms I worked at had a fixed amount of students that could get a callback from a certain school, either. That said, I do remember Gibson Dunn LA (not NY) coming to Columbia's OCI and taking their "top 10" students based on interview feedback to a dinner (two batches of five... one batch for each day of interviews). They chose their callback people based on how the dinner went, and if you didn't go, tough. That's definitely an anomaly, though, and no clue if they still do that.

Some other notes:

• I will say that GPAs get fuzzier at the top schools, because Yale/Stanford/Harvard/Cal/etc. don't have real GPAs. It's harder to compare people when you have a simpler H/P program that's purposefully designed to obscure who's at the very top and who's at the bottom. In practice, this means that a firm's more likely to dip deeper into that law school class GPA-wise, because the GPA means less in general.
• Keep in mind, too, that most law firms are preoccupied with extending callbacks to anyone they think is sufficiently competent -- without the time to compare you to people at other law schools. Specifically, firms (especially NYC firms) are looking to extend callbacks very quickly after the screener ends, but different law schools run their OCI process at different times. No NYC law firm is waiting until the Stanford/Yale students (generally two of the last OCI processes) to end before extending offers.
• There are always exceptions to the above. Munger used to run every applicant's resume and transcript by a bunch of people in a room before deciding whether to extend a callback, and the process was extremely GPA-focused. That said, that particular example probably wouldn't matter much, since they're not reaching deep into a law school class GPA-wise regardless of school.

I don't know if I answered your question satisfactorily, but as long as the firm shows up at your OCI process, they do intend to hire people. A lot of Columbia students end up at Davis Polk and the like but part of that's just a function of them being in NYC and being more likely to target NYC vs., say, Chicago or Cal. And if you get a callback, forget about whether your grades matter at all and just interview as best you can.

[Anonymous User]

Absolutely, you did answer my question satisfactorily. Thank you so much.

[Anonymous User]

What did you think of GPA improvement? Does it matter much?

I had several CBs for 1L SA positions due to my work experience, but those didn't pan out because I got a 3.0x in fall. Just got a 3.3x in spring, but my cumulative is still lower than ideal.

Does improvement move the needle in this situation?

[Anonymous User]

OP.

What did you think of GPA improvement? Does it matter much?

I had several CBs for 1L SA positions due to my work experience, but those didn't pan out because I got a 3.0x in fall. Just got a 3.3x in spring, but my cumulative is still lower than ideal.

Does improvement move the needle in this situation?

Sorry, not really. Not based on that particular increase, at least in terms of selling yourself to some brand new tier of firms. That said, it does give you a strong boost with all the firms that do take students below median.

All I mean here is that you're competitive for most firms (assuming you're at a T14) but you still shouldn't expect DPW or similar. Most law students are below median. Just approach your school's OCI process as someone in that position would regardless of your grade improvement, which means approach your bid list/OCI with the mindset that you should snag as many firms as you can that would reasonable take someone below median at your school. In practice, that translates to (1) not wasting high bids (espec. your first 10) on long shots/"reach" firms that probably won't take you, and (2) doing as many interviews as your mental health can tolerate. It's OK to throw in a few long shots, just not in your first 10 bids where you could be guaranteeing firms that you have a much better shot at and may be likely to miss an interview with otherwise.

Not every interview that falls through is your fault, sometimes things just don't click. With that in mind, just treat interviews that don't work out as practice.

Repasting this from earlier, too:

Separately, you didn't really ask about this, but if your GPA's not perfect the most important thing (by far) is your bid list strategy. Your bid list is way more important than even your interviewing skills, because someone with 15, 20, 20+ interviews for firms that will realistically take them is almost guaranteed to get a job while someone with 5-10 may fall short for reasons beyond their control (just didn't click with the interviewers, etc.). Think of it like having 20 darts to throw at a dart board vs. having 3 darts, where you only need to land one on the board to win.

The takeaway, then, if nothing else -- please try to maximize the number of interviews you have with firms that would realistically take you. (I don't mean to only bid firms that take everyone, necessarily, but if you're the bottom 25% of your class at most law schools then do not, under any circumstance, waste one of your first 5-10 bids on a firm like Cravath, Gibson Dunn, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

Bump in case relevant.

[Anonymous User]

Hi, thank you so much for doing this thread--can't' tell you how helpful your answers have been as I went through my OCI process.

I had a quick question related to 3L hiring: I accepted a district court clerkship that begins three years out from law school (so I have a two-year gap), and may need to re-recruit for post grad in a different city than the one I summered in. I got an offer from my summer firm, at an office with a good reputation in a major (NY/DC/LA/SF) market, but do you have any advice on how to handle the fact that I would be leaving to clerk in a few years in an interview? Do you think I'd need to commit to coming back post-clerkship?

[Anonymous User]

Hi, thank you so much for doing this thread--can't' tell you how helpful your answers have been as I went through my OCI process.

I had a quick question related to 3L hiring: I accepted a district court clerkship that begins three years out from law school (so I have a two-year gap), and may need to re-recruit for post grad in a different city than the one I summered in. I got an offer from my summer firm, at an office with a good reputation in a major (NY/DC/LA/SF) market, but do you have any advice on how to handle the fact that I would be leaving to clerk in a few years in an interview? Do you think I'd need to commit to coming back post-clerkship?

OP. Strong caveat here - I'm not an expert on this situation at all, so I'd get a second opinion. I never specifically interviewed litigation laterals or 3L hires. That said, my gut take:

Would you be able to NOT disclose (i.e., do they specifically ask or not)? If they don't, I'd tell them sometime after you get hired. If they do ask, though, don't sweat it. Tell them, but I haven't heard of a situation where they'd require you to commit to coming back post-clerkship. At least you'd be clerking two+ years later instead of one, and I'm sure plenty of your litigation interviewers will have clerked (and won't say no to a good candidate on the basis of them clerking in two more years). Don't sweat it too much, I do sincerely think this is less of a big deal than you think.

Ask a 3L who's been in this situation if you can.

[Anonymous User]

This is a long shot but I got an offer at a V5 and got no congratulations emails or any contact really other than the offer call and had a strong connection with the managing partner, what are the odds I was actually wanted at the firm or did they just accept me because of my connection? I know it’s hard for you to say but at the V20 firms where I got offers I got a lot of congratulations emails from my interviewers and people I spoke with so i’m feeling a bit unsure about if this offer is just a courtesy. Would appreciate any advice/thoughts!

[Anonymous User]

OP.

This is a long shot but I got an offer at a V5 and got no congratulations emails or any contact really other than the offer call and had a strong connection with the managing partner, what are the odds I was actually wanted at the firm or did they just accept me because of my connection? I know it’s hard for you to say but at the V20 firms where I got offers I got a lot of congratulations emails from my interviewers and people I spoke with so i’m feeling a bit unsure about if this offer is just a courtesy. Would appreciate any advice/thoughts!

I wouldn't read too much into this.

At both of the firms I was at, if you interviewed someone and that person got an offer, they'd notify you. One of the firms encouraged you to reach out with a note if you felt like it (it wasn't a requirement). The reason I say this - even if your managing partner connection WAS the reason for your offer, that shouldn't affect whether or not you get some type of congratulatory email.

The most likely scenario (by far) is honestly just that your particular interviewers are tied up on deals/cases, and didn't have time to send an email when they got the initial notification. Maybe it's just marked read in their inbox and has now slipped their mind.

Regardless, don't sweat this. I guarantee the partners aren't... the usual mechanic's that they submit all their feedback and promptly forget about it, and the hiring partner makes a decision at the end of all of it. Nobody's peeved about whether you got hired.

[Anonymous User]

Hi! I was wondering what's the best way to bring up that I have an existing offer and other callbacks with peer firms and whether doing this will increase the chances of getting an offer and/or speed up the hiring process. I have callbacks with four firms squeezed in the same week (all similar rankings) and an open offer from another firm (similar ranking).

[Anonymous User]

OP.

Hi! I was wondering what's the best way to bring up that I have an existing offer and other callbacks with peer firms and whether doing this will increase the chances of getting an offer and/or speed up the hiring process. I have callbacks with four firms squeezed in the same week (all similar rankings) and an open offer from another firm (similar ranking).

Don't bring it up at all unless your open offer's about to explode.

It will almost certainly not increase your chances of getting an offer. No firm will say, "They're a borderline candidate but they have an offer at X or Y peer firm, so let's take them." It also probably won't speed up the hiring process... if you have an exploding offer, it might be a reasonable ask to see if they can schedule your callback sooner, but it probably won't quicken the actual post-interview decision. Those decisions are usually made by the interviewers/hiring partner/perhaps some committee gathering to review then signing off on who gets an offer, and they're not going to hold their meeting sooner just because of you.

tl;dr You still don't have leverage here. There's nothing you should do unless your existing offer's about to expire.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Bumping because interviewing has actually started full blast.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you so much for doing this.

So I’m a rising 3L with an offer soon in hand (hopefully). I’m at YS but probably bottom 25%. I like my firm because they’re relatively strong in my practice area Of interest, but I’d love to “trade up”. My resume and classes I have top grades in for that matter scream this particular practice group.

I’m thinking of reaching out to firms I otherwise would likely not have been able to get offers from during OCI. I figure why not but I have no idea how to go about this process. In my cold emails / emails to alum, what do I say? Would love any advice and your thoughts on how much grades matter here.

[Anonymous User]

OP.

Thank you so much for doing this.

So I’m a rising 3L with an offer soon in hand (hopefully). I’m at YS but probably bottom 25%. I like my firm because they’re relatively strong in my practice area Of interest, but I’d love to “trade up”. My resume and classes I have top grades in for that matter scream this particular practice group.

I’m thinking of reaching out to firms I otherwise would likely not have been able to get offers from during OCI. I figure why not but I have no idea how to go about this process. In my cold emails / emails to alum, what do I say? Would love any advice and your thoughts on how much grades matter here.

It's worth a shot! You have nothing to lose. That said, it's largely a matter of chance here, in terms of whether these firms you want to apply to actually need someone in your practice niche.

3L hiring is need-based. They might not need a litigator or general corporate associate, but maybe not enough of their summer program wanted to do bankruptcy by the end of it. In that case, you're in luck if you like bankruptcy. If your interests don't jive with the firm's needs, it's not your fault, but you might be out of luck.

If you send a firm an email asking to apply, just say you worked the past summer at X firm, but wanted to apply to their firm for Y practice group. If you'll be in that firm's city (for interview availability), flag that. You don't need to give a bunch of reasons, they'll probably understand just fine what you're trying to do and would appreciate that you think they're an upgrade. You can take a different approach if you're trying to talk up an alum/etc. vs. directly applying, but when the time comes all you need to do is let them know you're interested in Y practice at their firm.

No need to overthink it! Your grades still matter but your clear interest in the particular niche + summer work in that niche will help. Grades matter less than the firm's particular need (which may not be obvious at all... it's hard to know from the outside in what a firm will need).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for keeping this post alive, OP. Do you have any takes on stub years trying to lateral? I am looking at lateral postings asking for 1+ years of experience but have also seen people with 4-8 months move. If the candidate is otherwise qualified for summer associate-ish level, would you ever give them a look without the requisite experience?