Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA Forum

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 pm
Hey, thanks for doing this. I'm a 1L at CLS and have a question about grades for V10 firms. Once you hit Stone (but fall below Kent), does it matter how much higher you are for the big NYC firms (Cravath, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc.)? As in, is a 3.4 treated differently than a 3.6 for recruiting purposes?

Also, to the extent you can speak to this: do non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell? Currently sitting at an A- average and, god willing, might be able to inch it up to 3.7, but a 3.8 is just eons away lol. I have a background in non-elite finance/consulting and did undergraduate research in the M&A/corporate governance space so I think I might be able to communicate a tailored interest in what the firm does. But I know grades are king...just don't know how far down Wachtell might dip at CLS. Thanks again!
OP here. The others below your post aren't me, to be clear.

Yeah, non-Kent people have a shot at Wachtell, though I know at least one of the guys who typically conducted CLS screeners was particularly grade-focused. Work experience matters. You shouldn't put them on a pedestal, though, for a variety of reasons (not that there aren't good reasons to work there - there are - but it's not the end-all for law firms and there are also perfectly good reasons to choose somewhere else).

Just hitting the Stone cut-off puts you in the running for almost all of the big NY firms (not Wachtell, but eh), but having "higher Stone" isn't meaningless. Like the other person said, S&C is probably the most grade-focused of the bunch. My year, the general rule was that if you had a 3.6 or up, you had a 95+% chance of getting an offer at S&C (you weren't out if you were low Stone, but it was certainly more up in the air). I heard that the year before me, a dude with Kent struck out at EIP and OCS mass-mailed a bunch of firms seeing if they'd be willing to interview a Kent Scholar, and S&C and Boies were the ones to respond affirmatively. That said, the levels of grades generally do matter substantially less once you hit the Stone cut-off (for the general large NY powerhouse firms, not boutiques or similar) - my CSM/STB/DPW/S&C-type firm rejected a few Kents each year.

There's nothing for you to really do, though, besides try to keep your grades high and interview as if you have a chance.

Caveat - I didn't get a Wachtell offer lol. I bombed one interview in particular at the callback stage, and I'll obviously never know if I was close to an offer to begin with. That said, I can say I got a callback without Kent 1L or any work experience in finance.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:44 pm
CLS 2L/3L here. To be completely honest — yes, I think a 3.4 is treated differently than a 3.6 at this tier of firm (i.e., it makes a difference not only at S&C, but also at Cravath, DPW, Cleary, etc.). GPA is not just a soft threshold for these firms; it's also a sliding scale. If you go into EIP/WIP with a 3.4, I do think you have to sell yourself somewhat better, demonstrate higher interest in the firm, have better WE, have better poise/presence, and so on vs. the 3.6 candidate. That's not to say the 3.4 is dead in the water or that the 3.6 is a shoe-in, just that the bar you have to clear moves up or down a little bit.

I'd echo the advice about not fixating on Wachtell. It takes just a handful (like like 4-6 people) from CLS each each year, so it's not only extremely grade-selective, but selective on a whole other set of other dimensions (e.g., pre-law school finance WE, demonstrated interest in public M&A — things that are basically proxies for "able and willing to work 2,700+ billable hours per year"). Just having the grades is not enough: I applied with a GPA >4.0 and didn't receive an offer. Conversely, I imagine that Wachtell would strongly consider somebody with a marginal GPA (marginal meaning 3.7) if that candidate had BB IB experience. And a 4-6 cohort is small enough that there's also some inherent randomness in the process.
It's not like a 3.4 vs. 3.6 doesn't matter at all, but it doesn't massively affect your chances at Cravath, DPW or Cleary compared to how you interview. I'm reasonably certain on this for the first two, at least, provided that you're coming from CLS. I'll take a good disposition over a 0.2 GPA increase any day.

Agreed on the Wachtell front though.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:11 pm
Tagging on though, outside S&C, is low Stone sufficient for the others just below that range (Cravath, PW, maybe DPW/Cleary)? How about for getting to DC? Think: A&P, GDC, Cleary, Skadden - not W&C or Covington (Not quite as ambitious as the last poster here & definitely not counting on raising my GPA). Thanks!
CLS 2L/3L. DC is probably the most competitive market in the country among top T14 students, and Stone/Kent scholars regularly strike out or get like 1 offer, sometimes a top choice and sometimes not. A&P tends to be somewhat less selective--most offerees do not have honors. GDC does actually generally requires honors but is slightly less selective than W&C and Covington; Skadden is similar. Cleary has been a bit less selective in recent years but a couple of years ago did generally require honors. I am not speculating here; I am relying on the school's data.

However, DC is super whacky in general, so do not count on anything and do not count W&C and Covington out. Low Stone should be sufficient to get in the door at the NY firms.

If anyone has insight into what seems to be the completely random DC market, I am sure people would be grateful.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:43 pm

Different CLS 1L here also with an A- avg. after first semester (+ scored an HP in LPW if that counts for anything lol).

Tagging on though, outside S&C, is low Stone sufficient for the others just below that range (Cravath, PW, maybe DPW/Cleary)? How about for getting to DC? Think: A&P, GDC, Cleary, Skadden - not W&C or Covington (Not quite as ambitious as the last poster here & definitely not counting on raising my GPA). Thanks!
OP here. Whoops, realized I missed this. Yeah low Stone's sufficient for Cravath, PW, DPW, Cleary.

For DC, the higher your grades are, the better. I'm not going to tell you low Stone puts you solidly in the running. A&P and GDC are going to look for reasonably high grades, assuming you're looking at them for their strong points (like lit or certain regulatory practices, and not corporate). Cleary seemed slightly less grade selective (at least within Stone) but assuming nothing's changed since I interviewed, they only really do antitrust there. If you're cool with that and can actually sincerely speak to an interest there, you should apply. Skadden DC seemed like the least grade-selective of the bunch my year but that's just appearances, I'm no expert.

Regardless of what your grades are, just know that things will inherently be more random. Since they're looking to fill a summer class of 20 to 30-ish people, rather than 100+, and there's tons of competition from both top HYS students + the local DC schools, there's just an element of randomness that doesn't exist as much with NY firms.

Grades are only one factor, though. For DC, you really need a strong narrative why you want to be there and why you're interested in their work.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:17 pm
CLS 2L/3L. DC is probably the most competitive market in the country among top T14 students, and Stone/Kent scholars regularly strike out or get like 1 offer, sometimes a top choice and sometimes not. A&P tends to be somewhat less selective--most offerees do not have honors. GDC does actually generally requires honors but is slightly less selective than W&C and Covington; Skadden is similar. Cleary has been a bit less selective in recent years but a couple of years ago did generally require honors. I am not speculating here; I am relying on the school's data.

However, DC is super whacky in general, so do not count on anything and do not count W&C and Covington out. Low Stone should be sufficient to get in the door at the NY firms.

If anyone has insight into what seems to be the completely random DC market, I am sure people would be grateful.
DC is random, like you and I both note. I'm not going to tell anyone what their odds of getting an offer are based on GPA alone (provided you're above Stone).

For full disclosure, I've obviously never worked at a law firm's DC office, but I did interview with them back during EIP (and got a couple offers).

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:53 pm

whats the selection criteria for DPW and STB? Do they really prefer gentle and calm ppl? I am gradually picking up some clues during the recruiting season, seems like they prefer the gentleman kind (I got callback from both but ultimately got dinged by both, probs bc I looked too aggressive lol)

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:55 pm

One of the 1Ls here again - thanks for all the info, very good to know!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:53 pm
whats the selection criteria for DPW and STB? Do they really prefer gentle and calm ppl? I am gradually picking up some clues during the recruiting season, seems like they prefer the gentleman kind (I got callback from both but ultimately got dinged by both, probs bc I looked too aggressive lol)
What do you mean, looked too aggressive? Were you glaring at them?

There are a million reasons you could've been dinged, and I'll never know what they were. If you somehow came off as cutthroat and unfriendly, then yeah, that's probably a ding at most places. DPW has a "flourish where we plant you" attitude and if it seems like you're at odds with everyone, that's a hard pass. In general, though, you shouldn't appear confrontational at any law firm interview. If you did, it's on you, not DPW and STB having a very specific archetype.

Happy to talk more if you provide more details.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:55 pm
One of the 1Ls here again - thanks for all the info, very good to know!
Sure. Glad it's useful.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:53 pm
whats the selection criteria for DPW and STB? Do they really prefer gentle and calm ppl? I am gradually picking up some clues during the recruiting season, seems like they prefer the gentleman kind (I got callback from both but ultimately got dinged by both, probs bc I looked too aggressive lol)

Are there actually identifiable "personas" for the big NYC firms? Chambers and old TLS posts say things like Cravath is full of "extremely polished" and super-neurotic perfectionists while Debevoise is really collegial and polite. Curious if these tropes are still accurate. Would help with differentiating the firms since their names all sound the same to me lol.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:58 pm

The other 1L here. Honestly super grateful for all this info (esp. regarding grade cutoffs), bc OCS seems to revel in keeping everything hush-hush while just blowing us off with "Don't worry, you'll get a job."

Y'all are amazing!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:53 pm
whats the selection criteria for DPW and STB? Do they really prefer gentle and calm ppl? I am gradually picking up some clues during the recruiting season, seems like they prefer the gentleman kind (I got callback from both but ultimately got dinged by both, probs bc I looked too aggressive lol)

Are there actually identifiable "personas" for the big NYC firms? Chambers and old TLS posts say things like Cravath is full of "extremely polished" and super-neurotic perfectionists while Debevoise is really collegial and polite. Curious if these tropes are still accurate. Would help with differentiating the firms since their names all sound the same to me lol.
OP here. I would strongly recommend that you don't put too much faith into firm stereotypes.

The reason is that so much of your experience will be driven by the specific people right above you on the chain, not how the firm on the whole is. If you're at a reportedly polite firm and your senior associate on a deal's a piece of shit, you're going to have a horrible time. Even on a broader scale, the culture can change from practice group to practice group (or even within).

I think Debevoise is a fantastic, collegial firm but I thank God every day I don't have to work for 1-2 Finance partners there. By the same token, Cravath does have a certain nose-on-the-grindstone attitude, but every firm has super neurotic perfectionists because that's what you pay people a thousand dollars an hour to be (don't get me wrong, Cravath also has 1-2 partners I thank God every day I don't have to deal with).

All I mean is that you can't put too much stock in a stereotype. You can be at a nice firm but get stuck with a terrible senior, or work at a Kirkland-type but happen to work for a real mentor figure. There's an element of chance here.

That said, firms' general policies/structure do inform culture to some extent. A totally free-market system will encourage certain personalities. A firm with tons of people actively involved in pro bono/partners who came through the revolving door from government/lenient pro bono policies is more likely to really care about its pro bono practice. A firm that doesn't take laterals will see the way it's done things for the last 100 years as positive, because all the partners there went through that and look how they turned out.

Get a vibe for people when you interview but please, please, don't just assume that Debevoise is collegial, Cravath is nothing but work horses, or whatever else. I know it's hard to tell the differences between firms from the outside in but take your time. If you're a 1L, just talk to a lot of people, and when OCI happens, continue talking to the people at the firms you get offers from even after you get the offer. Don't cross firms out until after you have offers in hand.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:58 pm
The other 1L here. Honestly super grateful for all this info (esp. regarding grade cutoffs), bc OCS seems to revel in keeping everything hush-hush while just blowing us off with "Don't worry, you'll get a job."

Y'all are amazing!
I'm not a fan of Columbia OCS, at least a few years ago.

If you're a 1L, my best advice is focus on getting as many reasonable interviews through bidding as you can when the time comes. If you're below median, don't fill up your bid list with Cravath and the like at the expense of other firms. People do strike out but 99% of the time it's because they bid poorly.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm

Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:22 pm

I'm a 2L at a T20 school. I'm pretty sure I struck out because I've been ghosted after screenings from firms and it's been 2 weeks and received rejection emails from others. I am currently mass mailing some firms but haven't received a single response. What would be the recommended steps to take if I still want to work in biglaw?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
Separate CLS anon, I second this. I hopped on the pre-OCI train late because I took the rule seriously but then realized the majority of people were ignoring it. Squeezed out a pre-OCI offer I was decently happy with, which gave me HUGE peace of mind and confidence entering WIP itself. Also, with the offer in hand, I was able to cut the number of WIP screener interviews from 20+ down to 10, which made my life so much easier.

Do not listen to OCS on this, and do not think you need to be Kent either to get serious looks during pre-OCI.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
Separate CLS anon, I second this. I hopped on the pre-OCI train late because I took the rule seriously but then realized the majority of people were ignoring it. Squeezed out a pre-OCI offer I was decently happy with, which gave me HUGE peace of mind and confidence entering WIP itself. Also, with the offer in hand, I was able to cut the number of WIP screener interviews from 20+ down to 10, which made my life so much easier.

Do not listen to OCS on this, and do not think you need to be Kent either to get serious looks during pre-OCI.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
OP here. To any CLS people reading this, I'd second these last two anons. I did early interviews myself before going into EIP, and was lucky enough to have one offer in hand by the time EIP started. Best-case scenario, you get an offer prior to EIP, and even if it's not your top pick it'll give you tremendous peace of mind (I promise the mental health benefits are real). Worst-case scenario, you don't get an offer, but you still get real-world interviewing experience. Real interviews are better practice than mock interviews.

Even if OCS were to enforce this (which they never did, to my knowledge, and apparently don't based on the last couple posts), it's your career. OCS wants to keep Columbia's employment numbers high but you have so much more at stake.

Edit: I wasn't Kent and I got early interviews. I know others my year who were closer to median and got early interviews. I know someone with terrible 1L grades who got an early interview by having a friend who summered at the firm put their resume through. You should absolutely try, there's no downside since the worst thing they can say is wait 'til EIP. I've heard of cases too where the firms have told students "We can't interview you now, but if you don't get an interview through the standard OCI program reach out and we'll see if we can schedule a screener."

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
Separate CLS anon, I second this. I hopped on the pre-OCI train late because I took the rule seriously but then realized the majority of people were ignoring it. Squeezed out a pre-OCI offer I was decently happy with, which gave me HUGE peace of mind and confidence entering WIP itself. Also, with the offer in hand, I was able to cut the number of WIP screener interviews from 20+ down to 10, which made my life so much easier.

Do not listen to OCS on this, and do not think you need to be Kent either to get serious looks during pre-OCI.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
OP here. To any CLS people reading this, I'd second these last two anons. I did early interviews myself before going into EIP, and was lucky enough to have one offer in hand by the time EIP started. Best-case scenario, you get an offer prior to EIP, and even if it's not your top pick it'll give you tremendous peace of mind (I promise the mental health benefits are real). Worst-case scenario, you don't get an offer, but you still get real-world interviewing experience. Real interviews are better practice than mock interviews.

Even if OCS were to enforce this (which they never did, to my knowledge, and apparently don't based on the last couple posts), it's your career. OCS wants to keep Columbia's employment numbers high but you have so much more at stake.

Edit: I wasn't Kent and I got early interviews. I know others my year who were closer to median and got early interviews. I know someone with terrible 1L grades who got an early interview by having a friend who summered at the firm put their resume through. You should absolutely try, there's no downside since the worst thing they can say is wait 'til EIP. I've heard of cases too where the firms have told students "We can't interview you now, but if you don't get an interview through the standard OCI program reach out and we'll see if we can schedule a screener."
Pre-OCI is great, but nothing beats having a firm summer 1L. I don't understand why more people don't try to do it, granted it takes a lot of work to apply to firms outside of OCI but I think a lot of firms are more willing to take on 1Ls from CLS than people realize. Especially outside of NYC and in secondary markets.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
Separate CLS anon, I second this. I hopped on the pre-OCI train late because I took the rule seriously but then realized the majority of people were ignoring it. Squeezed out a pre-OCI offer I was decently happy with, which gave me HUGE peace of mind and confidence entering WIP itself. Also, with the offer in hand, I was able to cut the number of WIP screener interviews from 20+ down to 10, which made my life so much easier.

Do not listen to OCS on this, and do not think you need to be Kent either to get serious looks during pre-OCI.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
OP here. To any CLS people reading this, I'd second these last two anons. I did early interviews myself before going into EIP, and was lucky enough to have one offer in hand by the time EIP started. Best-case scenario, you get an offer prior to EIP, and even if it's not your top pick it'll give you tremendous peace of mind (I promise the mental health benefits are real). Worst-case scenario, you don't get an offer, but you still get real-world interviewing experience. Real interviews are better practice than mock interviews.

Even if OCS were to enforce this (which they never did, to my knowledge, and apparently don't based on the last couple posts), it's your career. OCS wants to keep Columbia's employment numbers high but you have so much more at stake.

Edit: I wasn't Kent and I got early interviews. I know others my year who were closer to median and got early interviews. I know someone with terrible 1L grades who got an early interview by having a friend who summered at the firm put their resume through. You should absolutely try, there's no downside since the worst thing they can say is wait 'til EIP. I've heard of cases too where the firms have told students "We can't interview you now, but if you don't get an interview through the standard OCI program reach out and we'll see if we can schedule a screener."
Pre-OCI is great, but nothing beats having a firm summer 1L. I don't understand why more people don't try to do it, granted it takes a lot of work to apply to firms outside of OCI but I think a lot of firms are more willing to take on 1Ls from CLS than people realize. Especially outside of NYC and in secondary markets.

Hey, wanted to follow up on this. Does it matter what firm you work at your 1L summer? I managed to get a 1L summer offer with a V50 and haven't heard back from the vast majority of the higher-ranked firms yet. I'd really much rather just accept this offer and wrap up recruiting to focus on classes, since interviews are so time consuming, but if firm "rank" or "prestige" matters (for some reason???), I'll try to stomach another few weeks and see if any other firms bite...

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
Separate CLS anon, I second this. I hopped on the pre-OCI train late because I took the rule seriously but then realized the majority of people were ignoring it. Squeezed out a pre-OCI offer I was decently happy with, which gave me HUGE peace of mind and confidence entering WIP itself. Also, with the offer in hand, I was able to cut the number of WIP screener interviews from 20+ down to 10, which made my life so much easier.

Do not listen to OCS on this, and do not think you need to be Kent either to get serious looks during pre-OCI.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm
Also, you should enter EIP with several offers already if you are at CLS. OCS does not enforce the ban and several firms this year filled up to one-third of their summer positions early. I--and many of my friends--made a huge mistake by following OCS policy. One OCS person was even unpleasantly surprised and chided someone I know for following OCS policy and for not having an offer going into EIP.

I truly cannot overstate how important it is to get an early offer if possible.
OP here. To any CLS people reading this, I'd second these last two anons. I did early interviews myself before going into EIP, and was lucky enough to have one offer in hand by the time EIP started. Best-case scenario, you get an offer prior to EIP, and even if it's not your top pick it'll give you tremendous peace of mind (I promise the mental health benefits are real). Worst-case scenario, you don't get an offer, but you still get real-world interviewing experience. Real interviews are better practice than mock interviews.

Even if OCS were to enforce this (which they never did, to my knowledge, and apparently don't based on the last couple posts), it's your career. OCS wants to keep Columbia's employment numbers high but you have so much more at stake.

Edit: I wasn't Kent and I got early interviews. I know others my year who were closer to median and got early interviews. I know someone with terrible 1L grades who got an early interview by having a friend who summered at the firm put their resume through. You should absolutely try, there's no downside since the worst thing they can say is wait 'til EIP. I've heard of cases too where the firms have told students "We can't interview you now, but if you don't get an interview through the standard OCI program reach out and we'll see if we can schedule a screener."
Pre-OCI is great, but nothing beats having a firm summer 1L. I don't understand why more people don't try to do it, granted it takes a lot of work to apply to firms outside of OCI but I think a lot of firms are more willing to take on 1Ls from CLS than people realize. Especially outside of NYC and in secondary markets.
Some good reasons I'm doing a government internship over pursuing firms (even though presumably I have the grades to get one):
1) Relatively niche interest that I want to demonstrate (+ get experience in)
2) Want to pivot to government long-term post-BL
3) Already have good WE from before school

The money would be nice for sure but the benefits for me (short-term in having a better story for OCI, + long-term showing commitment to gov/my area of interest) outweigh what's a relatively small amount of $ in the long run.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:25 pm

I'm a 3L at a lower t-14. I struck out at OCI when I was a bit below median. Now I'm about midway between median and cum laude, but haven't gotten any bites from firms at a 3L, despite an interview or two.

I have a great job lined up in-house with a huge company in the financial sector making solid money. Even though I liked the company a lot when I summered there, I still probably want to go firm side within 2-3 years. How realistic is it for someone with no firm experience out of school to get a job at a market-paying firm? Should I try to jump earlier or later?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:44 pm

I looked into the Pedigree book by Lauren Rivera that some earlier posters mentioned and found it quite daunting. I didn't attend an elite undergrad or work at the likes of McKinsey or Goldman Sachs before law school, where it sounds like a lot of students develop this "pedigree." How does one acquire the "polish" necessary to get jobs at elite firms? Is there a particular way of practicing for interviews? Also, I honestly don't even know what this "polish" is. As in, it sounds like you can't just have a coherent answer for "Why Firm X?"...there's something more intangible, like physical appearance/dress/body language/etc.???

Sorry if these are super dumb questions, but, as a first-gen, state-school plebeian, I'm genuinely nervous about OCI next year.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:14 pm

OP here.
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:22 pm
I'm a 2L at a T20 school. I'm pretty sure I struck out because I've been ghosted after screenings from firms and it's been 2 weeks and received rejection emails from others. I am currently mass mailing some firms but haven't received a single response. What would be the recommended steps to take if I still want to work in biglaw?
You're not definitively out at the ones you've been ghosted on, though it's not the best omen. This is a weird time though and schedules are crazy.

You have to start hustling even more than you already are. Mass-mailing is a good start but don't let up the pressure on that, and don't expect quick responses. Reach out to alumni at firms you're interested in that might accept someone in your position. The worst they can say is no, and you're no worse off than when you started, but you only need one hit.

Continue to hustle throughout your 2L year. Some places may hire later once it's clear their normal hiring season didn't give them enough people in certain practice groups.
Pre-OCI is great, but nothing beats having a firm summer 1L. I don't understand why more people don't try to do it, granted it takes a lot of work to apply to firms outside of OCI but I think a lot of firms are more willing to take on 1Ls from CLS than people realize. Especially outside of NYC and in secondary markets.
Not sure how easy it is now (you all probably know better than I do) but if you land it, it's pretty great.
Hey, wanted to follow up on this. Does it matter what firm you work at your 1L summer? I managed to get a 1L summer offer with a V50 and haven't heard back from the vast majority of the higher-ranked firms yet. I'd really much rather just accept this offer and wrap up recruiting to focus on classes, since interviews are so time consuming, but if firm "rank" or "prestige" matters (for some reason???), I'll try to stomach another few weeks and see if any other firms bite...
For your 1L summer? Nobody's judging a 1L SA poorly, period. They're all pretty competitive positions, and while I guess it might be crazy to see someone who worked at an ultra-competitive law firm their 1L summer, it's not like I'd assume anything but good things about someone else.

Think about it this way, if you were an interviewer, would you be like, "I can't believe this guy didn't summer at Wachtell, next," or "Interned for a district court judge? Should've interned for the Supreme Court, next." No, you wouldn't. There's nothing disadvantageous about your position.

You could keep applying if you have a particular opportunity still on the table that you'd especially love to work at, but you already did pretty well.
Some good reasons I'm doing a government internship over pursuing firms (even though presumably I have the grades to get one):
1) Relatively niche interest that I want to demonstrate (+ get experience in)
2) Want to pivot to government long-term post-BL
3) Already have good WE from before school

The money would be nice for sure but the benefits for me (short-term in having a better story for OCI, + long-term showing commitment to gov/my area of interest) outweigh what's a relatively small amount of $ in the long run.
These are all good reasons to do something besides a 1L SA. Some legal career paths do require you to demonstrate your interest in the field/path through your resume.
I'm a 3L at a lower t-14. I struck out at OCI when I was a bit below median. Now I'm about midway between median and cum laude, but haven't gotten any bites from firms at a 3L, despite an interview or two.

I have a great job lined up in-house with a huge company in the financial sector making solid money. Even though I liked the company a lot when I summered there, I still probably want to go firm side within 2-3 years. How realistic is it for someone with no firm experience out of school to get a job at a market-paying firm? Should I try to jump earlier or later?
It's not super common, and I'd advise you not to expect it (not that it's not possible, just don't count on it).

The chance goes up if you're in a niche field, as I've seen people go from Big 4 Tax to a tax associate at a law firm (though there aren't many of those, either, so it's not like the chance is high). Places also tend to need exec comp people more than others. If you had a certain government position, there might be a revolving door-type opportunity once you're higher up, but this likely isn't the case if you're in-house at a financial services company.
I looked into the Pedigree book by Lauren Rivera that some earlier posters mentioned and found it quite daunting. I didn't attend an elite undergrad or work at the likes of McKinsey or Goldman Sachs before law school, where it sounds like a lot of students develop this "pedigree." How does one acquire the "polish" necessary to get jobs at elite firms? Is there a particular way of practicing for interviews? Also, I honestly don't even know what this "polish" is. As in, it sounds like you can't just have a coherent answer for "Why Firm X?"...there's something more intangible, like physical appearance/dress/body language/etc.???

Sorry if these are super dumb questions, but, as a first-gen, state-school plebeian, I'm genuinely nervous about OCI next year.
I have never read that book, to be clear, so I have no idea what it says. I also went to a state school.

You acquire a polish for law firm interviews the same way you would for any other job. Think about it this way, if you were hiring someone, you'd ideally want someone that seemed sharp, diligent, organized, and when a project got rough, you'd still like being around them and they wouldn't collapse under pressure. Everything else a law firm might judge you on is something they view as a proxy for those qualities.

If you're dressed like an absolute slob, I don't actually care what your outfit is, but it might suggest to someone that you're either generally oblivious or couldn't be bothered to spend 5 minutes to tidy up for an important interview. I don't want careless people at my firm, so next.

For body language, if you seem horrendously uncomfortable around me and can't sit still or hold a regular conversation, that's probably not a good thing for hiring. That's not because of pedigree, it's because you're being really awkward around me and I don't know what's wrong. I promise I'm not thinking, "Wow, this guy's sitting forward at the perfect 74-degree slanted angle, I'll bet he was born into a family of six generations of Harvard alumni. Unbelievable pedigree."

I could not care less about someone's family background. "Polish" isn't a bad word but it's not about some natural, inborn grace that plebs don't have, it's about coming to an interview prepared and seeming like someone I'd want to work with.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:05 pm
How does stuttering come across in interviews (actual speech impedient, not just word mixup)? Obviously depends on how severe, but I was wondering your general thoughts if you had any.

I chose a client facing career and know I have to deal that.

Anon because I'm interviewing and don't want anyone at my firm to know that.
For me, personally, I take zero issue with stuttering if it doesn't seem to be accompanied by crippling social anxiety.

If you stutter, take your time when answering questions. Don't cut your responses short because you're afraid you'll continue to stutter (e.g., "I'd love to hear more about your 1L summer. What was it like working at the DOJ?" "Good" vs. a more fleshed-out response, regardless of how much you stutter). You can stutter but still convey that you're sharp, poised and thoughtful.

I'd love to say that stuttering doesn't matter at all in all cases (and it shouldn't, legally), but just put your best foot forward. Anecdotally, a guy in my law school class had a very strong speech impediment and the social anxiety to boot and ended up at Paul Hastings, where he still is. Haven't spoken to him since graduation but hope he's doing well.

I just wanted to say thanks. This answer actually means a lot in helping change how I approach interviews and life in general. I really do appreciate this.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:21 pm
I just wanted to say thanks. This answer actually means a lot in helping change how I approach interviews and life in general. I really do appreciate this.
This is by far the coolest thing to come out of this thread. Pulling for you, seriously!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:18 pm

Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:18 pm
Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!
Not OP, but essentially all firms other than Wachtell regularly take laterals regularly. Though lateral hiring is quite different because your substantive experience/deal sheet/etc matters weighs heavier than your law school credentials. It's also different in that lateral hires are based on specific needs in a specific practice group, not firm wide.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:18 pm
Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!
I mean, Cravath’s whole shtick is “no laterals” (tiny handful of exceptions at the partner level). The others might to a certain extent, but keep in mind that all of these hiring channels are much, much smaller than 2L hiring.

But the premise of this questions seems misguided to me — if you don’t land at one of the firms on your list, then you just ... work somewhere else (whatever V10/V20/V50/V100 firm CLS will surely land you), and it will be fine.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:18 pm
Do the top NYC firms (Cravath, S&C, STB, WLRK, etc.) do 3L, post-clerkship, and/or lateral hiring? If so, do you know roughly how many people they take (at each stage) and what credentials are needed (from CLS, specifically)?

It would be great to hear which firms are truly like "you only one chance to get in the door" vs. those you still have a shot at down the road if you don't get a screener/callback/offer during EIP. Thanks!
OP. I'll caveat all of the below with you really shouldn't start at a firm with an expectation of lateraling, especially not to a place like these. If it happens, great, but it's honestly pretty stupid to make this part of your plan. Please don't expect to do this.

Simpson does the most lateral hiring of the bunch. They've hired a lot of M&A laterals in particular.

S&C does too, but it didn't seem particularly common to me.

Cravath does make 3L hires, including for its core corporate/litigation practices. Your odds are higher if you're in a niche group like exec comp/benefits. After 3L, I think they technically take laterals for specialist groups, but only specialist groups.

WLRK does take laterals but it's all subject to actual need. There usually isn't much need for more people.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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