2L biglaw SAs remote/in person Forum

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asjusn

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2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by asjusn » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:09 am

For those with pre-OCI biglaw offers, have the firms made any indication whether they'll for sure be remote, in person, or if they're still unsure? And if they indicated they're unsure, did they give you a date when they'd let you know? For me, the V25 I received an offer from said they were as of yet unsure. Thanks.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 am

V10. Formally, I'm hearing the same "no news" shtick. Informally, I'm hearing that it would be very surprising if anything was in person this summer. Taking a step back, I think that makes a ton of sense. Even if vaccine roll outs are successful enough to get every person in the office vaccinated by June (they probably won't be) an in-person program would still be a masked up, social distanced, diluted affair. Plus, a lot of firms, including mine, had last summer to beta test a distanced SA program that, frankly, saves everybody a lot of money. From the employer perspective, there just seems to be very little incentive to go back to the old ways anyway until (unless?) the old way again becomes the norm.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by asjusn » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 am
V10. Formally, I'm hearing the same "no news" shtick. Informally, I'm hearing that it would be very surprising if anything was in person this summer. Taking a step back, I think that makes a ton of sense. Even if vaccine roll outs are successful enough to get every person in the office vaccinated by June (they probably won't be) an in-person program would still be a masked up, social distanced, diluted affair. Plus, a lot of firms, including mine, had last summer to beta test a distanced SA program that, frankly, saves everybody a lot of money. From the employer perspective, there just seems to be very little incentive to go back to the old ways anyway until (unless?) the old way again becomes the norm.
I would be surprised as well for all the reasons you've stated. Just trying to gauge the odds for logistics reasons, I'd need temporary housing if we were to be in person.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:50 pm

V5. No word, was told to wait on the decision. I think the firms really want an in-person program since I've heard a lot of summer programs is socializing and getting to know people. But I agree, the likelihood of everyone being vaccinated by mid to late-May (that's the tentative start date I've been given), is low :( Additionally, some of us may be able to get vaccinated before the start of the program, but I can't see firms doing part-virtual/part-in person. That wouldn't be fair to the SA's that haven't managed to get vaccinated yet or are uncomfortable. But fingers crossed! Congrats to you both on securing the bag!

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by asjusn » Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:50 pm
V5. No word, was told to wait on the decision. I think the firms really want an in-person program since I've heard a lot of summer programs is socializing and getting to know people.

Congrats to you both on securing the bag!
I think that's true, they're going to want to get to know their people, especially since interviews are all virtual. And thanks - congrats to you too.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:10 pm

None of the firms I have offers from (NYC) have any idea but of course they want in-person and the recruiting people have said as much. Their job is to make us come back and its easier to do that if you have actual contacts with people and have been wined and dined. The idea that they want to "save money" is ludicrious imo, they have saved thousands on interview flyouts not to mention last year's SA program. Getting in good talent is worth a lot to them.

No way to predict now with any certainty what the world will look like in June. If 2020 has taught us anything its that predicting the future is hard and in a pandemic things change quickly.

I would guess that even if SAs are virtual, firms will do everything in their power to get people into the office or the city for at least a few days. My OCP has said firms had floated the idea of bringing people out in the Spring for picnics etc. post-offer. This was before the Phizer vaccine announcement.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by purplegoldtornado » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:10 pm
None of the firms I have offers from (NYC) have any idea but of course they want in-person and the recruiting people have said as much. Their job is to make us come back and its easier to do that if you have actual contacts with people and have been wined and dined. The idea that they want to "save money" is ludicrious imo, they have saved thousands on interview flyouts not to mention last year's SA program. Getting in good talent is worth a lot to them.

No way to predict now with any certainty what the world will look like in June. If 2020 has taught us anything its that predicting the future is hard and in a pandemic things change quickly.

I would guess that even if SAs are virtual, firms will do everything in their power to get people into the office or the city for at least a few days. My OCP has said firms had floated the idea of bringing people out in the Spring for picnics etc. post-offer. This was before the Phizer vaccine announcement.
Agree with this. I am definitely an optimist, so FWIW, I think we will definitely be in person. At least for the latter half.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:10 pm
None of the firms I have offers from (NYC) have any idea but of course they want in-person and the recruiting people have said as much. Their job is to make us come back and its easier to do that if you have actual contacts with people and have been wined and dined. The idea that they want to "save money" is ludicrious imo, they have saved thousands on interview flyouts not to mention last year's SA program. Getting in good talent is worth a lot to them.
I see where you’re coming from, but I disagree. I’ll concede that SAs have traditionally been a “wine and dine” affair...but I think that highly desirable firms (V5/V10/V20) also know they can get good yield & retain top talent in spite of a lackluster summer experience.

Even at my T14, where students tend to have lots of options open to them, a kind of conservatism sets in after OCI where people feel lucky/grateful to have an offer, particularly at a “prestigious” firm. I can’t picture these people abandoning their offers (for what exactly...?) just because their SA was disappointing. 3L hiring is usually weak, so there’s not a ton of escape hatches either unless you really work for it.

Another way to put it: don’t you think most of the 3Ls at your school are accepting their return offers to S&C, despite S&C sh*tting the bed on its 2020 SA program? Now imagine the entire market in 2021 settling on some hybrid (or fully remote) SA format. I doubt that has a material impact on firms’ recruiting ability.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by jimmythecatdied6 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:54 pm

The firms will do whatever is market. I expect market will be "virtual only" for this upcoming summer. Anyone that says otherwise is probably a law student (sorry folks, I get that it sucks).

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by purplegoldtornado » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:49 pm

jimmythecatdied6 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:54 pm
The firms will do whatever is market. I expect market will be "virtual only" for this upcoming summer. Anyone that says otherwise is probably a law student (sorry folks, I get that it sucks).
Haha, guilty! :mrgreen:

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:10 pm
None of the firms I have offers from (NYC) have any idea but of course they want in-person and the recruiting people have said as much. Their job is to make us come back and its easier to do that if you have actual contacts with people and have been wined and dined. The idea that they want to "save money" is ludicrious imo, they have saved thousands on interview flyouts not to mention last year's SA program. Getting in good talent is worth a lot to them.
I see where you’re coming from, but I disagree. I’ll concede that SAs have traditionally been a “wine and dine” affair...but I think that highly desirable firms (V5/V10/V20) also know they can get good yield & retain top talent in spite of a lackluster summer experience.

Even at my T14, where students tend to have lots of options open to them, a kind of conservatism sets in after OCI where people feel lucky/grateful to have an offer, particularly at a “prestigious” firm. I can’t picture these people abandoning their offers (for what exactly...?) just because their SA was disappointing. 3L hiring is usually weak, so there’s not a ton of escape hatches either unless you really work for it.

Another way to put it: don’t you think most of the 3Ls at your school are accepting their return offers to S&C, despite S&C sh*tting the bed on its 2020 SA program? Now imagine the entire market in 2021 settling on some hybrid (or fully remote) SA format. I doubt that has a material impact on firms’ recruiting ability.
Agree with this, but I'm curious if it will be the same for post-clerkship hiring, for which there is a more robust market. Anecdotally a lot of the incoming federal clerks I know are at least considering not going back after disappointing summers, but that may be normal.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:10 pm
None of the firms I have offers from (NYC) have any idea but of course they want in-person and the recruiting people have said as much. Their job is to make us come back and its easier to do that if you have actual contacts with people and have been wined and dined. The idea that they want to "save money" is ludicrious imo, they have saved thousands on interview flyouts not to mention last year's SA program. Getting in good talent is worth a lot to them.
I see where you’re coming from, but I disagree. I’ll concede that SAs have traditionally been a “wine and dine” affair...but I think that highly desirable firms (V5/V10/V20) also know they can get good yield & retain top talent in spite of a lackluster summer experience.

Even at my T14, where students tend to have lots of options open to them, a kind of conservatism sets in after OCI where people feel lucky/grateful to have an offer, particularly at a “prestigious” firm. I can’t picture these people abandoning their offers (for what exactly...?) just because their SA was disappointing. 3L hiring is usually weak, so there’s not a ton of escape hatches either unless you really work for it.

Another way to put it: don’t you think most of the 3Ls at your school are accepting their return offers to S&C, despite S&C sh*tting the bed on its 2020 SA program? Now imagine the entire market in 2021 settling on some hybrid (or fully remote) SA format. I doubt that has a material impact on firms’ recruiting ability.
Agree with this, but I'm curious if it will be the same for post-clerkship hiring, for which there is a more robust market. Anecdotally a lot of the incoming federal clerks I know are at least considering not going back after disappointing summers, but that may be normal.
At my firm clerk hiring is a bit of a dud. While SA hiring is normal (remember this is for 2 years out). Clerks i know have also remarked on the lackluster market right now

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by FortniteFever01 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:39 pm

Assuming SAs are virtual, do we think firms will be holding 10-week programs or shortened ones?

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asjusn

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by asjusn » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:00 pm

FortniteFever01 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:39 pm
Assuming SAs are virtual, do we think firms will be holding 10-week programs or shortened ones?
It must be 10. I think the excuse for any firm with a shortened program was that they were caught off-guard. This time they can be prepared for the possibility of a full-length remote program.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by avenuem » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:12 pm

asjusn wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:00 pm
FortniteFever01 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:39 pm
Assuming SAs are virtual, do we think firms will be holding 10-week programs or shortened ones?
It must be 10. I think the excuse for any firm with a shortened program was that they were caught off-guard. This time they can be prepared for the possibility of a full-length remote program.
Agreed. Also doubt there will be in-person. Partners have suggested returning as late as fall 2021.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by purplegoldtornado » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:07 pm

What are the tax consequences of working in one state and living in another? I live in a flyover state and will be working in a major market and was curious if my take-home pay will be different working virtually.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:10 pm
None of the firms I have offers from (NYC) have any idea but of course they want in-person and the recruiting people have said as much. Their job is to make us come back and its easier to do that if you have actual contacts with people and have been wined and dined. The idea that they want to "save money" is ludicrious imo, they have saved thousands on interview flyouts not to mention last year's SA program. Getting in good talent is worth a lot to them.
Another way to put it: don’t you think most of the 3Ls at your school are accepting their return offers to S&C, despite S&C sh*tting the bed on its 2020 SA program? Now imagine the entire market in 2021 settling on some hybrid (or fully remote) SA format. I doubt that has a material impact on firms’ recruiting ability.
At my school S&C already has bad yield on their offers (~1/10 accepted last year). I personally know the one who accepted and they have said they regret their decision. They aren't actively looking, but it definitely looked bad for the firm and lowered morale. Personally I would have bid S&C if they hadn't screwed their summers and am instead going to a peer firm. Point taken that these changes won't affect most people, but what matters is the margin not the mean.

With the slow pace vaccines are being rolled out, and with herd immunity apparently requiring 90% infection+vaccination, I am not optimistic that we will be in person at all over the summer. Would be very delighted to be proven wrong. Things could also definitely change if death and hospitalization rates plummet once older and at-risk people get vaccinated, which will happen sooner than we get to herd immunity.
purplegoldtornado wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:07 pm
What are the tax consequences of working in one state and living in another? I live in a flyover state and will be working in a major market and was curious if my take-home pay will be different working virtually.
In most cases you have to pay income taxes in the employment state (or DC) and the resident state, but you can claim a credit in the resident state for the taxes you paid in the employment state. Assuming you make less than $60k for the year I'm pretty sure you can use turbotax for free if you go through the IRS website.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:53 pm

not likely to be in person imo. I am in NYC rn and the estimated earliest time for me (mid-20s male) to get vaccinated (according to NYT) is April. The hope is Columbia/NYU could get their hands on vaccine sooner, but don't know if that will happen before April. EVEN IF we can get the first shot in April, we still need to wait for a month to get the second shot. Plus NYC firms have summer classes from all over the country, not sure if other states' vaccination schedule would be earlier than NYC. Just not very likely based on this timeline.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:00 am

I didn’t do a SA last summer, but I am curious about the experience you all might have had doing a SA remote last summer given my SA with a boutique firm looks like it will be virtual this summer. How often did you have meetings (Zoom/phone call) with the associates/partners you were working with? My friend who did an SA last summer said she mostly just emailed back and forth with the attorneys she worked with and had a Short Zoom call with them or a mentor once every couple of weeks...less than 5 times over the summer! This surprised me!

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by loislanejd » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:08 pm

I did a remote SA last summer and there were weekly/biweekly social events over Zoom. As far as day to day with the partners and associates I was working with, I think we communicated more regularly over email. I had initial Zoom or phone calls when I got the assignment, but any follow up questions I had were over email.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 am
Plus, a lot of firms, including mine, had last summer to beta test a distanced SA program that, frankly, saves everybody a lot of money. From the employer perspective, there just seems to be very little incentive to go back to the old ways anyway until (unless?) the old way again becomes the norm.
Also, summer programs take an enormous amount of time, effort, and money to plan. They would probably already be planning them now if it weren’t for delayed OGI taking all the energy. It’s a massive logistical undertaking and many of the big social activities they traditionally do require months of lead time and deposits. Having chatted with recruiters at a couple V10s, they both mentioned losing a shit ton of money last summer because of all the nonrefundable deposits, prepaid fees, prepurchased event tickets, cancellation fees on catering, etc that they had already incurred by the time conversations about going remote started in like March. A remote summer isn’t quite as difficult, but it still requires months of planning to do well.

My point being that they’re not going to sit around and wait to see how the situation looks in April/May and then pull an in-person summer out of their ass. They have to decide basically ASAP after OGI, and the less risky option is to assume it’s remote again.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by asjusn » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:36 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 am
Plus, a lot of firms, including mine, had last summer to beta test a distanced SA program that, frankly, saves everybody a lot of money. From the employer perspective, there just seems to be very little incentive to go back to the old ways anyway until (unless?) the old way again becomes the norm.
Also, summer programs take an enormous amount of time, effort, and money to plan. They would probably already be planning them now if it weren’t for delayed OGI taking all the energy. It’s a massive logistical undertaking and many of the big social activities they traditionally do require months of lead time and deposits. Having chatted with recruiters at a couple V10s, they both mentioned losing a shit ton of money last summer because of all the nonrefundable deposits, prepaid fees, prepurchased event tickets, cancellation fees on catering, etc that they had already incurred by the time conversations about going remote started in like March. A remote summer isn’t quite as difficult, but it still requires months of planning to do well.

My point being that they’re not going to sit around and wait to see how the situation looks in April/May and then pull an in-person summer out of their ass. They have to decide basically ASAP after OGI, and the less risky option is to assume it’s remote again.
Great insight here (and from all the other attorneys in this thread). Thank you!

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:14 am

A few weeks ago, I would've given it a 50-50 shot of in person 2021 SAs. Now seeing how abysmally slow vaccinations are rolling out, I'd give it <10%. Somebody in the 'when will NYC return to the office' thread (viewtopic.php?t=305505) just posted Labor Day 2021, which strikes me as realistic (and obviously precludes an in person summer).

Silver lining is that firms will have 12+ months of remote experience under their belt, plus last summer as a learning opportunity, so hopefully SA programs will be improved versions of whatever c/o 2021 got.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:54 pm

Sorry to necro, but now that OCIs and callbacks are wrapping up, has anyone gathered more intel on in person vs. remote format this summer? (in NY specifically)

Over the course of my interviews, I asked a number of different V10ish firms about their summer plans, and mostly received non-committal “TBDs” (except S&C, “TBD but we own our building” lololol). But perhaps some of you were more effective in coaxing out real information.

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Re: 2L biglaw SAs remote/in person

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:54 pm
Sorry to necro, but now that OCIs and callbacks are wrapping up, has anyone gathered more intel on in person vs. remote format this summer? (in NY specifically)

Over the course of my interviews, I asked a number of different V10ish firms about their summer plans, and mostly received non-committal “TBDs” (except S&C, “TBD but we own our building” lololol). But perhaps some of you were more effective in coaxing out real information.
Also hearing "undecided/TBD" from both of my offer firms, as well as "a hybrid system is a possibility." Just a guess, but I doubt at this stage of OCI that firms are going to give a flat-out "it will be virtual" answer even if they know that's the case. They wouldn't want to risk losing too many candidates who are on the fence with multiple offers and could be swayed by wanting to go to a firm where they might get to do summer in person. (Hopefully that isn't the one deciding factor for anyone, but who knows). FWIW I'm just expecting to be virtual all summer. Less disappointment that way when it happens.

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