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Considering a move to a smaller firm that has a lower billable requirement (1600-1900 range) still near a major city. Seems to be a more regional firm in a major market where the biglaw firms pay full Cravath scale.

Any idea what salaries tend to look like at firms like this for a midlevel associate leaving biglaw? FWIW, there are more than a few biglaw refugees in the firm, if that makes a difference in any anecdata.

EDIT: I thought a poster in another recent thread over the past couple of days mentioned a few of these types of firms with lower billable requirements, but I can't seem to find the post.

I interviewed with two firms that are similar to what you’re mentioning.

One was $195k for a fourth year. Billable requirement was 1650 I think. It was a larger firm, though. Not quite a boutique.

The other was a true boutique, had a 1600 hour requirement, and the pay for a midlevel was around $160k.

I didn’t end up taking either, but the hours were tempting.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:12 pm

I interviewed with two firms that are similar to what you’re mentioning.

One was $195k for a fourth year. Billable requirement was 1650 I think. It was a larger firm, though. Not quite a boutique.

The other was a true boutique, had a 1600 hour requirement, and the pay for a midlevel was around $160k.

I didn’t end up taking either, but the hours were tempting.

Thanks. Did you end up at a similar lower hours threshold firm? In terms of the hours targets, do you know if people at firms like this actually end up near their target hours, or do you still have the biglaw issue, where you may only have an 1800 target, but still be north of 2000+ in busy years?

Even 1800 if you're *actually* only billing 1700-1900 in a typical year sounds way better than a biglaw firm where the target is only 1900 and you end up consistently at 2100-2400.

Any idea if these smaller firms have the same amount of Friday night emails that turn into all-weekend projects like biglaw? At least at my current firm, when we're across from more regional firms it seems like those folks tend to work less on weekends.

I lateralled to a corporate boutique in NYC when I was a second year. My initial base was 205k and my base as a 3rd year was 215k. Bonuses were possible with high enough hours, but I never got one. Billable expectations were 1600 to 1800. I was able to have a life, especially compared to my biglaw job where I was expected to be in front of a computer at all times every day that I wasn't on vacation. 80% of weekends were completely free. I did get occasional interruptions on vacation though because there aren't as many people to cover and the deal terms are much smaller so fewer people know what's going on day-to-day.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:12 pm

I interviewed with two firms that are similar to what you’re mentioning.

One was $195k for a fourth year. Billable requirement was 1650 I think. It was a larger firm, though. Not quite a boutique.

The other was a true boutique, had a 1600 hour requirement, and the pay for a midlevel was around $160k.

I didn’t end up taking either, but the hours were tempting.

Thanks. Did you end up at a similar lower hours threshold firm? In terms of the hours targets, do you know if people at firms like this actually end up near their target hours, or do you still have the biglaw issue, where you may only have an 1800 target, but still be north of 2000+ in busy years?

Even 1800 if you're *actually* only billing 1700-1900 in a typical year sounds way better than a biglaw firm where the target is only 1900 and you end up consistently at 2100-2400.

Any idea if these smaller firms have the same amount of Friday night emails that turn into all-weekend projects like biglaw? At least at my current firm, when we're across from more regional firms it seems like those folks tend to work less on weekends.

I ended up not leaving my firm. From my conversations with people at the firms, those 1600 hours were hours needed for bonus, and I spoke with an associate who said they hadn’t hit bonuses the past two years and they didn’t get any negative feedback.

The true boutique didn’t do M&A, so the hours were balanced. It does general corporate counseling, so unless a client had a fire drill, late night and weekend work wasn’t really a thing there. I think this is why the salary was lower, though.

I'm the guy who posted in the "How to escape" thread. My pay is tied to hours billed -- without outing myself with an exact number, my pay = [$175-$225] * hours billed * collections %. Keep in mind virtually no one bills above 1800 or 1900 here.

Neff wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:17 pm

I'm the guy who posted in the "How to escape" thread. My pay is tied to hours billed -- without outing myself with an exact number, my pay = [$175-$225] * hours billed * collections %. Keep in mind virtually no one bills above 1800 or 1900 here.

What year would you need to be to lateral to that type of boutique? How competitive are such positions.

The always on and 2400+ hours is really tough.

Neff wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:17 pm

I'm the guy who posted in the "How to escape" thread. My pay is tied to hours billed -- without outing myself with an exact number, my pay = [$175-$225] * hours billed * collections %. Keep in mind virtually no one bills above 1800 or 1900 here.

OP here. Thanks, that was the post I was thinking of! How is it with fire drills and late night/weekend work compared to biglaw M&A?

lawlo wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:25 pm

Neff wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:17 pm

I'm the guy who posted in the "How to escape" thread. My pay is tied to hours billed -- without outing myself with an exact number, my pay = [$175-$225] * hours billed * collections %. Keep in mind virtually no one bills above 1800 or 1900 here.

What year would you need to be to lateral to that type of boutique? How competitive are such positions.

The always on and 2400+ hours is really tough.

I've worked at a midsized firm with roughly this compensation model for partners before. It's a full-service firm in a smaller market, not a corporate boutique. You can work as much or as little as you want as long as your personal practice is turning a profit, so there are rainmakers who bill 2400 and make close to seven figures and service partners who bill 1800 and make like $250-300k. (Low COL market so both are pretty excellent). It takes biglaw laterals, usually as associates in years 2-4 but occasionally some very senior associates who go directly to partner. If you're coming in as an associate you'll take a haircut on class year. Since it's pretty small and doesn't hire for every practice area every year, you have to get lucky, but if you're e.g. T14 + ties + good biglaw firm + practice area they need you'll get a look. You obviously have a better chance if you also have something special (federal clerkship, AUSA, CPA, connections to in-market clients, etc.).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:01 pm

Neff wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:17 pm

I'm the guy who posted in the "How to escape" thread. My pay is tied to hours billed -- without outing myself with an exact number, my pay = [$175-$225] * hours billed * collections %. Keep in mind virtually no one bills above 1800 or 1900 here.

OP here. Thanks, that was the post I was thinking of! How is it with fire drills and late night/weekend work compared to biglaw M&A?

Agreed this is the real question. # of hours is less a problem than predictability of hours and ability to step away for a week or two. If you can point me to the direction of a boutique like that, I’m in.

Also curious if it's possible or how tough it would be to go back to biglaw after making a move like this if the grass wasn't as green as anticipated.

To respond to all of the above. Yes, there are still evening and weekend fire drills. A significant chunk of my practice is still M&A after all. But generally speaking, my current setup still feels a lot better because you are not on 5 or 6 deals, just one or two, in addition to a smattering of general corporate counseling (usually easy drafting based on rote forms, answering simple questions, etc) -- short, discrete projects.

No matter how many fire drills you have, if you are on 1500 hour pace, it's just not going to feel that bad, ESPECIALLY because you get to WFH permanently. Fire drills at night or weekends don't feel nearly as bad when you spend most of your 9-5 on Netflix.

THAT said, downsides include the following :(1) your comp is tied to collections, so if you suck at keeping time or consistently keeping your clients happy, or if your big M&A deal goes haywire and you don't collect (very rare), you get hosed, (2) crappy benefits as small firms can't subsidize health insurance nearly as much, (3) no paid parental leave (you can take as much vacation/leave as you want), but it's all unpaid, (4) sometimes dealing with annoying startup clients, and (5) have to think/act like a partner even as a midlevel, without the hierarchy of biglaw, you're often thrown in the deep end, kind of just have to fake it until you make it sometimes.

We recruit almost exclusively from biglaw, years 2-9.

Assuming a good economy, I feel like I can find my way back to biglaw, simply because I'm using/developing nearly all of the biglaw corporate/M&A/ECVC skillset (other than sweatshop PE and capital markets work, which we deliberately avoid and which I hate anyway).

Does anyone know how much salaries are negotiable at these more regional firms? I expect an offer will be in the $140-150k range, so wondering how negotiable that number is.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:19 pm

Does anyone know how much salaries are negotiable at these more regional firms? I expect an offer will be in the $140-150k range, so wondering how negotiable that number is.

Salaries are 100% negotiable at small firms since there are fewer decision makers (its not like biglaw where the firm literally has no room other than lockstep, or midlaw where there are 5-20 partners that need to approve a variation of salary). Just make a business case for why you should be paid more, and also consider taking a portion of that additional pay as contingent(can I get a guaranteed bonus if I bill over X... can I get x% of collections.. etc.)

s1m4 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:19 pm

Does anyone know how much salaries are negotiable at these more regional firms? I expect an offer will be in the $140-150k range, so wondering how negotiable that number is.

Salaries are 100% negotiable at small firms since there are fewer decision makers (its not like biglaw where the firm literally has no room other than lockstep, or midlaw where there are 5-20 partners that need to approve a variation of salary). Just make a business case for why you should be paid more, and also consider taking a portion of that additional pay as contingent(can I get a guaranteed bonus if I bill over X... can I get x% of collections.. etc.)

Thanks for the response. How much room for negotiation is there would you say on an offer in the $130k-$160k range in a major market? Is $200k too big of an ask?

Also, do you have any sense of the size of salary raises (if any) on a yearly basis? I was guessing annual salary raises would be in the $5k-$15k range.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:21 pm

s1m4 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:19 pm

Does anyone know how much salaries are negotiable at these more regional firms? I expect an offer will be in the $140-150k range, so wondering how negotiable that number is.

Salaries are 100% negotiable at small firms since there are fewer decision makers (its not like biglaw where the firm literally has no room other than lockstep, or midlaw where there are 5-20 partners that need to approve a variation of salary). Just make a business case for why you should be paid more, and also consider taking a portion of that additional pay as contingent(can I get a guaranteed bonus if I bill over X... can I get x% of collections.. etc.)

Thanks for the response. How much room for negotiation is there would you say on an offer in the $130k-$160k range in a major market? Is $200k too big of an ask?

Also, do you have any sense of the size of salary raises (if any) on a yearly basis? I was guessing annual salary raises would be in the $5k-$15k range.

Bumping this to see if anyone has any data points on what's reasonable.

If a firm offers 130-160, 200 is not reasonable unless you’re a senior associate in a very desirable practice that’s hard to fill. I still don’t think it would be that reasonable, but at least you’d have some more leverage.


Honestly, if a firm offered 130, I’d try to negotiate to 150. If it were 160, 180 may be the max. Asking for a bonus is more realistic.

Just as a data point - making $200k in corporate boutique (10-20 lawyers) in Los Angeles. 4 years experience (2 years biglaw). general corporate/early stage work.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:26 am

Just as a data point - making $200k in corporate boutique (10-20 lawyers) in Los Angeles. 4 years experience (2 years biglaw). general corporate/early stage work.

Are you at a "boutique" that's doing high end work and billing 2000+ or is it more of a midlaw boutique where folks are billing 1600-1900?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:24 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:26 am

Just as a data point - making $200k in corporate boutique (10-20 lawyers) in Los Angeles. 4 years experience (2 years biglaw). general corporate/early stage work.

Are you at a "boutique" that's doing high end work and billing 2000+ or is it more of a midlaw boutique where folks are billing 1600-1900?

A touch over 1900 this year.