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What happens to failed academics (defined as people who either got a VAP but could not land a tenure track job or people who were denied tenure)? I am quite interested in a career as a law professor, but I am worried about the fallback options for someone who commits to that path. I can't imagine many employers would be super interested in taking someone who has shown they want to work in another field.

Classic Example ?

..................... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G86YBWspJVY

It depends on the person's pre-academic career (if any). I'm seeing a growing trend of people who spend some time in biglaw before transitioning over to an academic role. One Visiting Professor at my school (T25) decided to go back to her old firm, although I'm not sure why. So I imagine that going back into practice could be an option for those who had actual experience as a practicing attorney before attempting the academic track.

Those who went straight into academic positions after law school (clerkship --> fellowship --> VAP) would likely struggle a lot more. Policy positions with think tanks could be an option, as that's the one place that values academic experience.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:22 pm

It depends on the person's pre-academic career (if any). I'm seeing a growing trend of people who spend some time in biglaw before transitioning over to an academic role. One Visiting Professor at my school (T25) decided to go back to her old firm, although I'm not sure why. So I imagine that going back into practice could be an option for those who had actual experience as a practicing attorney before attempting the academic track.

Those who went straight into academic positions after law school (clerkship --> fellowship --> VAP) would likely struggle a lot more. Policy positions with think tanks could be an option, as that's the one place that values academic experience.

I think this answer is the correct answer and makes further answers on the subject redundant.

I will say as a more general warning that legal academia is becoming increasingly competitive, and it's already incredibly competitive. 33-50% of candidates these days have PhDs in addition to their law degrees. About 70% of the total pool has some advanced degree beyond the JD (MA, MBA, MD, LLM, PhD, JSD, etc.). If you are serious about academia and will put in the work, the best path is probably clerking a year or two, working another year or two at a top firm, and then getting a PhD. After that, you'll either have good luck and land a position at a decent school right away or have to do a VAP before landing a position.

Very few people do the old clerk, work, and get a job these days. Of the TT hires on Lawsky's report for 2020, 21/92 got jobs without any advanced degree beyond the JD, aka went the old clerk, work, and get a job approach. Of those, only 4/21 got a job without a VAP. Only 2/21 got a job without a clerkship. Only 1/21 had neither a VAP nor Clerkship. That individual has been out of law school for 13 years and landed at a Tier 2 school.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:22 pm

It depends on the person's pre-academic career (if any). I'm seeing a growing trend of people who spend some time in biglaw before transitioning over to an academic role. One Visiting Professor at my school (T25) decided to go back to her old firm, although I'm not sure why. So I imagine that going back into practice could be an option for those who had actual experience as a practicing attorney before attempting the academic track.

Those who went straight into academic positions after law school (clerkship --> fellowship --> VAP) would likely struggle a lot more. Policy positions with think tanks could be an option, as that's the one place that values academic experience.

hope it's not a problem that I'm bumping this - but is there a rough amount of practice that would make going back to biglaw pretty guaranteed after a 2 year VAP? for example, if someone practices in biglaw for a year, clerks, goes back to biglaw for year, then does a VAP, are they in a solid spot to go back to biglaw?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:22 pm

It depends on the person's pre-academic career (if any). I'm seeing a growing trend of people who spend some time in biglaw before transitioning over to an academic role. One Visiting Professor at my school (T25) decided to go back to her old firm, although I'm not sure why. So I imagine that going back into practice could be an option for those who had actual experience as a practicing attorney before attempting the academic track.

Those who went straight into academic positions after law school (clerkship --> fellowship --> VAP) would likely struggle a lot more. Policy positions with think tanks could be an option, as that's the one place that values academic experience.

hope it's not a problem that I'm bumping this - but is there a rough amount of practice that would make going back to biglaw pretty guaranteed after a 2 year VAP? for example, if someone practices in biglaw for a year, clerks, goes back to biglaw for year, then does a VAP, are they in a solid spot to go back to biglaw?

I think one of the issues here would be what year you’d come in as. 2 years of practice with 3 years of non-practice doesn’t really add up to a 5th year, I’d imagine. Not saying you couldn’t negotiate some solution, but this is the first concern I’d see.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:30 pm

I think one of the issues here would be what year you’d come in as. 2 years of practice with 3 years of non-practice doesn’t really add up to a 5th year, I’d imagine. Not saying you couldn’t negotiate some solution, but this is the first concern I’d see.

anon you're responding to: I'd assume the 2 years of vap wouldn't be counted, so maybe a rising fourth year like you were when you left practice?

I do think i'm allowing this downside fear to dictate a little too much though. generally speaking, shooting for the moon sets you up to land among stars even if you miss. same thing with trying hard in law school even if you can't get a scotus clerkship - usually it isn't wasted effort.

None of the VAP time would be counted at any serious firm. Tread very carefully with this idea. After doing something like this, any of your prospective law firm employers would be right to seriously question (i) your skills, (ii) your commitment to private practice in a firm environment over the long-term, (iii) your likelihood of leaving the firm at your next whim/opportunity, (v) your fit among its other organically-sourced and groomed associates, and (vi) your ability to bring in business, among other things. It just screams 'risk!' and your resume would be placed near the back of the pile of those from lateral candidates with more conventional experience.

I saw some guy do this at a lit boutique. Was a 6th-7th year, left for a VAP, couldn't get a TT gig, and came back. The difference in scenarios is that he had 5-6 years of goodwill (clerked for a year) built up. He's an equity partner now. Not sure the same would have worked for him if he spent one year at the boutique and tried this.

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:46 pm

Only 1/21 had neither a VAP nor Clerkship. That individual has been out of law school for 13 years and landed at a Tier 2 school.

YLS grad?

laanngo wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:39 am

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:46 pm

Only 1/21 had neither a VAP nor Clerkship. That individual has been out of law school for 13 years and landed at a Tier 2 school.

YLS grad?

Assuming I found the right list, Chicago.

A good friend of mine, my primary mentor actually, made a serious push to become a law professor. He had gone to a law school ranked in the 50s, but was on law review, did pretty well academically, and continued publishing law review articles while in private practice. After several years of practice he decided to earnestly give a professor career a shot.

It was painful to watch a deserving person go through so much misery. He caught virtually no traction, anywhere. Even the bottom-ranked schools with terrible reputations were pretty much exclusively hiring Ivy League grads.

I think the legal profession has a saturation problem when it comes to law professors: there are so many very well-qualified lawyers who could become professors, and so many biglaw refugees who want to stop billing hours and chasing clients, that the schools can afford to be absurdly selective. If the Chester Arthur School of Law wants to only hire Yale law grads, there is nothing stopping them from doing so and succeeding.

I'm an adjunct and don't teach a core class- but a lot of the ones who don't get tenure go on to another school or try to jump into a thinktank. I've seen a few go to do federal govt stuff as well (or they were in a fed role and became a prof).
It is quite difficult to become a tenured prof (regardless of field, but law is certainly difficult) in general.
Many folks jump around for a decade before landing a spot.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:00 pm

A good friend of mine, my primary mentor actually, made a serious push to become a law professor. He had gone to a law school ranked in the 50s, but was on law review, did pretty well academically, and continued publishing law review articles while in private practice. After several years of practice he decided to earnestly give a professor career a shot.

It was painful to watch a deserving person go through so much misery. He caught virtually no traction, anywhere. Even the bottom-ranked schools with terrible reputations were pretty much exclusively hiring Ivy League grads.

I think the legal profession has a saturation problem when it comes to law professors: there are so many very well-qualified lawyers who could become professors, and so many biglaw refugees who want to stop billing hours and chasing clients, that the schools can afford to be absurdly selective. If the Chester Arthur School of Law wants to only hire Yale law grads, there is nothing stopping them from doing so and succeeding.

Field could have very well been a problem here.

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:00 pm

A good friend of mine, my primary mentor actually, made a serious push to become a law professor. He had gone to a law school ranked in the 50s, but was on law review, did pretty well academically, and continued publishing law review articles while in private practice. After several years of practice he decided to earnestly give a professor career a shot.

It was painful to watch a deserving person go through so much misery. He caught virtually no traction, anywhere. Even the bottom-ranked schools with terrible reputations were pretty much exclusively hiring Ivy League grads.

I think the legal profession has a saturation problem when it comes to law professors: there are so many very well-qualified lawyers who could become professors, and so many biglaw refugees who want to stop billing hours and chasing clients, that the schools can afford to be absurdly selective. If the Chester Arthur School of Law wants to only hire Yale law grads, there is nothing stopping them from doing so and succeeding.

Field could have very well been a problem here.

It could, as well as the placement for the LR articles, but the saturation issue and consequent snobbery is still huge.