Top Law Schools

How do you stop yourself from rage quitting when a partner yells at you (especially while you're literally giving your firm every waking moment, and still get yelled at)?

Please don't quote.

The few times that happened to me, I took a bit of time off later that day to decompress. I'd do something that is stress-relieving like go workout, watch a movie, etc. Anything to get myself back to a more steady state of mind and avoid doing something I'd later regret.

Once calmer, I'd then think bigger picture in a fair and logical way. First, I'd do some introspection on what I screwed up, how I can improve, and how to ensure it doesn't happen again. Second, I'd do some external consideration. No one should be literally yelling at you in a professional environment. Conveying something sternly is one thing. But if you mean it was a raging tirade, thats not acceptable and you should never think of it as such.

The last thing I would do is prep some notes for a discussion with the partner. The worst thing is to let it fester. For me, it was important to address it quickly and not leave that negative experience fresh in the partner's mind. I'd set up some time to proactively and calmly talk through how you can improve. Don't be defensive, listen well, be positive, and usually it will be well-taken.

You work so much in this job that you get sucked in, but honestly, just remind yourself that these partners are miserable sacks of shit that are likely stuck doing this because they have no skills to do anything else. It's helped me really stop giving shit about getting criticism or getting yelled at and just keep collecting paychecks.

Yelling = unacceptable. Don't care how bad the mistake was, how big a deal the partner is. Plenty of partners don't do it, plenty of firms don't tolerate it.

I'd look for a new job OP. You deserve better.

FWIW, not a senior/rainmaker and was not any kind of substantive mistake (don't want to say more and risk outing myself). I've had all positive reviews the past few years, but this just rubbed me so, so badly the wrong way and I just can't focus on getting any work done since the incident.

Yelling is unacceptable. If you have two or three years of experience, you should polish up your materials and start looking for other opportunities.

Lawyers are still human. Firms are set up so that multiple people review docs because everyone makes mistakes from time to time. If you've had all positive reviews then it sounds like you're the type of person who is harder on yourself than others are and takes pride in your own work product. I think that tends to make for a good / improving lawyer, and also means you beat yourself up a bit (too much).

I also think your reaction is normal and why yelling is generally counterproductive in almost any work environment/situation. It is one thing to have a sober conversation with someone about how something went wrong, didn't meet client expectations, and the negative impact from that. A professional can have that conversation, acknowledge it, then try to learn and move on. Berating someone and distracting them from their other work doesn't solve the problem but actually compounds it. And a worse associate (who make mistakes all the time or just doesn't care) would probably shrug it off ("happens all the time"). Sounds like your boss could use some help on effective management style/practice, unfortunately that's not a priority for many big law partners.

How many partners are yelling at you? I'm a midlevel working at a very big firm known to be a total sweatshop in NYC and I've never been yelled at. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Screamers should not be tolerated in modern law practice, and if your firm doesn't address this issue, I would leave IMO.

Every time you get yelled at just apply to a few jobs. The fuck you to the firm is giving exactly 2 weeks notice with zero flexibility.

So like you give notice on a Friday. 14 days later you leave.

Unfortunately, if you leave every time someone treats you like shit, you’ll be at ten firms before you know it. If you otherwise like your firm, I would see whether you can go on vacation to create some space or pick up enough work from other partners to leave this one behind. I understand this is not always possible but people like this exist in one form or another at lots of places. (Not just yelling—helicopter partners, partners who make snide remarks, etc.)

.

LBJ's Hair wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:08 am

Yelling = unacceptable. Don't care how bad the mistake was, how big a deal the partner is. Plenty of partners don't do it, plenty of firms don't tolerate it.

I'd look for a new job OP. You deserve better.

I would just seek work from other partners right now unless lateraling is feasible for your area.

Is there a consensus on which firms do or don’t tolerate yelling like this? I’m working at a V10 firm in NYC and have never heard of this topic being circulated.

Accidental double-post.

To be fair, yelling is nothing. I had a partner who threw papers at me (and then made me pick them up) and also grabbed my phone out of my hand one time and threw it across the room (cracking the screen). This person was a big rainmaker and on the firm's executive committee, so the behavior was tolerated. In fact, this person seemed proud that the behavior had been reported to HR multiple times (by other people) and nothing came of it.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:15 pm

To be fair, yelling is nothing. I had a partner who threw papers at me (and then made me pick them up) and also grabbed my phone out of my hand one time and threw it across the room (cracking the screen). This person was a big rainmaker and on the firm's executive committee, so the behavior was tolerated. In fact, this person seemed proud that the behavior had been reported to HR multiple times (by other people) and nothing came of it.

I’ve heard of behavior like this at my firm, but it was back in the day (90s and early 00’s) with partners throwing shit at people, throwing binders across the room, etc. But a lot of that shit stopped being tolerated, and I know one senior rainmaker who had a terrible track record of this was forcefully told retire about 3-4 years ago after a final straw.

Yelling at people is a personal failure on the yeller and ineffective management.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:38 am

Yelling is unacceptable. If you have two or three years of experience, you should polish up your materials and start looking for other opportunities.

It's so odd to me that the response to some partner yelling is "YOU (OP) should leave." Why should OP leave because some more senior attorney was a dick? I think the much better response is "YOU (OP) should tell this other attorney to cut the yelling."

MrTooToo wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:38 am

Yelling is unacceptable. If you have two or three years of experience, you should polish up your materials and start looking for other opportunities.

It's so odd to me that the response to some partner yelling is "YOU (OP) should leave." Why should OP leave because some more senior attorney was a dick? I think the much better response is "YOU (OP) should tell this other attorney to cut the yelling."

Because people should be treated with respect at their workplace, and a workplace that doesn't ensure that doesn't deserve their time. Also, seems unlikely that the yelling partner would change their ways anyway (especially if they're a rainmaker that can do almost whatever they want).

Also associates are way more dependent on partners' goodwill than the other way around, and depending on the partner's and your standings at the firm, telling them to cut it out isn't going to be a great path to career success.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:38 am

It's so odd to me that the response to some partner yelling is "YOU (OP) should leave." Why should OP leave because some more senior attorney was a dick? I think the much better response is "YOU (OP) should tell this other attorney to cut the yelling."

Partners yell because they can. Not because they (wrongly) believe it's a socially or morally acceptable way to treat their associates.

If you tell a yeller to knock it off, you'll probably make yourself feel better. But who knows if s/he will actually change his/her behavior? Might even retaliate--take you off matters, badmouth you to others, etc.

Long-term, if you can't get away from the yeller, best to look for another job. It's like a bad boyfriend/girlfriend: You don't try to "fix" them, you leave.

nixy wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Also associates are way more dependent on partners' goodwill than the other way around, and depending on the partner's and your standings at the firm, telling them to cut it out isn't going to be a great path to career success.

Depends on your group and who the associate is. If you’re a PE associate at Kirkland, the partner doesn’t need you.

If you’re a top performing associate in a smaller group (but large enough you can avoid work from that partner), the leverage can shift. Partners always want the top associates on their deals, not only for clients, but because it makes their lives easier.

MrTooToo wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:38 am

Yelling is unacceptable. If you have two or three years of experience, you should polish up your materials and start looking for other opportunities.

It's so odd to me that the response to some partner yelling is "YOU (OP) should leave." Why should OP leave because some more senior attorney was a dick? I think the much better response is "YOU (OP) should tell this other attorney to cut the yelling."

I don't disagree with you, but unfortunately, a partner who still thinks, in this day and age, that yelling at an associate constitutes appropriate behavior is not going to suddenly apologize and do a complete 180 as far as how they act. It's virtually impossible to dismantle the decades of ego, privilege, and arrogance that lead to partners thinking it's okay to yell at an associate. And those people certainly won't respond to a finger wag and saying "I don't think that was very nice of you."

There are firms, even biglaw firms, where partners respect their associates. OP leaving in this context would not be a mark of defeat, but taking an affirmative step towards finding a healthy and professional working environment.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:48 am

nixy wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Also associates are way more dependent on partners' goodwill than the other way around, and depending on the partner's and your standings at the firm, telling them to cut it out isn't going to be a great path to career success.

Depends on your group and who the associate is. If you’re a PE associate at Kirkland, the partner doesn’t need you.

If you’re a top performing associate in a smaller group (but large enough you can avoid work from that partner), the leverage can shift. Partners always want the top associates on their deals, not only for clients, but because it makes their lives easier.

Sure, which is why I said “depending on your and the partner’s standing.” Do you think that even a top associate is going to have much success getting the screamer to stop yelling, or just in not having to work with them? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

nixy wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:48 am

nixy wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Also associates are way more dependent on partners' goodwill than the other way around, and depending on the partner's and your standings at the firm, telling them to cut it out isn't going to be a great path to career success.

Depends on your group and who the associate is. If you’re a PE associate at Kirkland, the partner doesn’t need you.

If you’re a top performing associate in a smaller group (but large enough you can avoid work from that partner), the leverage can shift. Partners always want the top associates on their deals, not only for clients, but because it makes their lives easier.

Sure, which is why I said “depending on your and the partner’s standing.” Do you think that even a top associate is going to have much success getting the screamer to stop yelling, or just in not having to work with them? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

OP here: How hard would it be to say formally, I do not want to work with this specific person anymore? Not a rainmaker, and others have way more than enough work to fill my plate. But I'm sure this would make me not seem like a team player and the firm may not react well.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:50 pm

nixy wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:48 am

nixy wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Also associates are way more dependent on partners' goodwill than the other way around, and depending on the partner's and your standings at the firm, telling them to cut it out isn't going to be a great path to career success.

Depends on your group and who the associate is. If you’re a PE associate at Kirkland, the partner doesn’t need you.

If you’re a top performing associate in a smaller group (but large enough you can avoid work from that partner), the leverage can shift. Partners always want the top associates on their deals, not only for clients, but because it makes their lives easier.

Sure, which is why I said “depending on your and the partner’s standing.” Do you think that even a top associate is going to have much success getting the screamer to stop yelling, or just in not having to work with them? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

OP here: How hard would it be to say formally, I do not want to work with this specific person anymore? Not a rainmaker, and others have way more than enough work to fill my plate. But I'm sure this would make me not seem like a team player and the firm may not react well.

Have you considered just going to this guy and delivering a version of "Look, dude, I want to support your work and I'm happy to keep working with you but if you have feedback to give me, you need to do it by talking, not yelling. If you can't do that, let's just agree to part ways." Just talk to him directly. Maybe it will be a shining light moment for him. Maybe he'll tell you to get the fuck out of his office. But either way it seems like a better way to handle this than escalating it into a "formal request" to your firm's higher-ups over yelling.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:50 pm

nixy wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:48 am

nixy wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:32 pm

Also associates are way more dependent on partners' goodwill than the other way around, and depending on the partner's and your standings at the firm, telling them to cut it out isn't going to be a great path to career success.

Depends on your group and who the associate is. If you’re a PE associate at Kirkland, the partner doesn’t need you.

If you’re a top performing associate in a smaller group (but large enough you can avoid work from that partner), the leverage can shift. Partners always want the top associates on their deals, not only for clients, but because it makes their lives easier.

Sure, which is why I said “depending on your and the partner’s standing.” Do you think that even a top associate is going to have much success getting the screamer to stop yelling, or just in not having to work with them? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

OP here: How hard would it be to say formally, I do not want to work with this specific person anymore? Not a rainmaker, and others have way more than enough work to fill my plate. But I'm sure this would make me not seem like a team player and the firm may not react well.

At my firm, there were a few partners who were notoriously awful. Everyone knew who they were, including the other partners. If an associate brought up not wanting to work with them to partners/management, it was obvious why. It's not a secret which partners are terrible to associates. I think this is pretty common at every other firm with bad partners.

My advice would be to try to talk to other associates who you trust about how to handle it. There was a rainmaker at my firm who caused several associates to leave because she was so terrible, yet management never did anything about it because, well, there was always a revolving door of associates for her to make miserable. I reached a breaking point with her and talked openly and honestly about it with a partner who I trust and who had a lot of sway in assigning work, which is what an associate/friend recommended. The matter I was on with the partner was close to settling, so I was asked to see the case through settlement and then I wouldn't have to work with her again. It worked fine (because the client was very happy with us), but I was also planning to leave (and did leave) the firm shortly after. I know of several other associates who complained about her and were eventually taken off matters with her.

I understand that this is not always a possible solution and sometimes you just have to deal with it or leave. It's also not always the best idea if you want to stay at a firm long-term.