GPA Cutoffs At Different Firms Forum

[nixy]

That’s likely true, but I don’t find the straightforward correlation between Vault rankings and grades convincing either. As has already been noted, not all T30s are the same, and things like size of summer class also make a difference. The ranking of which firms are more vs less grade selective still seems helpful for non-T14s, even if the actual cut off is going to be different.

Based on my T30's gradesheet, Vault ranking is heavily correlated with grade cutoffs. Yes, there are exceptions (e.g. STB is less selective than the rest of the v10 at my T30; Kellog Hansen is 97th but you need to be in the top 10%), but I deliberately bolded and underlined generally because of TLS posters coming through with their "but aktualllly"s and saying how their cousin at a T40 got into Latham being top 25%

Probably the most helpful thing, though, would be for the OP to have this information for their T30.

[trebekismyhero]

As has already been stated, it's difficult to track GPA cutoffs for different Vault levels. But, in general, what are the cutoffs like for firms at the end of the V100 rankings (think: Fox Rothschild, Ballard Spahr, Davis Wright, Katten)? (anecdotal insight would be helpful)

I can speak to Katten having interviewed there during OCI from a t30 school and basically it is the same as others mentioned, you need to be top 1/4. Also, depends heavily on the school. If you are applying to Katten and went to WashU, ND, or Illinois, you'll have a much better chance than if you went to say the University of Washington. I am guessing for Davis Wright, the reverse would be true, you'd have a much better chance if the t30 you went to was UW.

[aliciacflorrick]

As has already been stated, it's difficult to track GPA cutoffs for different Vault levels. But, in general, what are the cutoffs like for firms at the end of the V100 rankings (think: Fox Rothschild, Ballard Spahr, Davis Wright, Katten)? (anecdotal insight would be helpful)

I would think GPA cut-offs are much less predictable for firms lower in the V100. As you go down in the rankings, the class-sizes are smaller which complicates the creation of any accurate metric for them. Those offices may be more competitive at their NY satellite than their HQ, for example, and have just 1-2 spots open. Kellogg Hansen is lower despite being more competitive than practically every other firm. Ballard Spahr is low, but their class is smaller and their entertainment law summer program attracts tons of applicants to the point where it’s probably like trying to snag Wachtel. It’s not like comparing Latham or STB with each other.

[Anonymous User]

I think you need an even more impressive GPA for the lower V100 coming from outside of the T14 because of smaller class-size.

In my experience coming from a T50, it was easier to get a V10 lit job than anything else in the V100 purely based on class-size. In my case, I saw that Willkie or Kramer Levin were less impressive in lit/lower-ranked generally, so I thought I’d have a better chance there with a high GPA. Yet it turned out that firms of that size were not as focused or as willing to review non-T14 applicants from a mass-mail perspective (unless there was a satellite in my school’s region). From an OCI perspective, the smaller or lower-ranked firms were much less visible for my kind of school than places in the V10 that had the resources to interview a T50 student. It almost seems like you miss big law altogether outside of the T14 if you don’t land a big V10-20 office in NY or have an office in your region.

[Anonymous User]

As has already been stated, it's difficult to track GPA cutoffs for different Vault levels. But, in general, what are the cutoffs like for firms at the end of the V100 rankings (think: Fox Rothschild, Ballard Spahr, Davis Wright, Katten)? (anecdotal insight would be helpful)

I can speak to Katten having interviewed there during OCI from a t30 school and basically it is the same as others mentioned, you need to be top 1/4. Also, depends heavily on the school. If you are applying to Katten and went to WashU, ND, or Illinois, you'll have a much better chance than if you went to say the University of Washington. I am guessing for Davis Wright, the reverse would be true, you'd have a much better chance if the t30 you went to was UW.

For these same firms, do you think an applicant outside of top 1/4 still has a chance if they have a competitive clerkship?

[Anonymous User]

Probably the most helpful thing, though, would be for the OP to have this information for their T30.

This. OP, I am guessing your career services has this information and can make it available to you.

This stuff is going to be really different for, say, Fordham, Emory, and George Washington (especially in their "home" markets) than other schools. I just opened up the law school rankings, and Arizona State and Iowa are both in the T30. They are probably wonderful law schools, but I imagine they have small alumni networks at most large law firms. I don't think many firms are opening up the USNWR rankings and saying "wow, this school is higher ranked than I realized! We need to make sure we up our representation of attorneys from that school!" So, the general GPA standards for, say, Arizona State might be more demanding than Fordham, especially in NYC. "T30" is not a monolith.

[Anonymous User]

As has already been stated, it's difficult to track GPA cutoffs for different Vault levels. But, in general, what are the cutoffs like for firms at the end of the V100 rankings (think: Fox Rothschild, Ballard Spahr, Davis Wright, Katten)? (anecdotal insight would be helpful)

At my east coast T30, you needed to be in like top 10% to get Ballard because, as others have mentioned, it’s a small class. Also, it’s pretty popular among UPenn students who take up a third of the class. My friend’s summer had a couple of Harvard students as well. It’s a “low” vault firm, but it’s an attractive firm to a lot of people because of its entertainment and real estate groups.

For Fox Rothschild, I think the GPA cutoff was slightly above median.

I can’t tell you about the other two.

[Anonymous User]

Do firms ever publicly disclose their GPA cutoffs? Is there a source to find a list of GPA cutoffs per firm? This would be very helpful for upcoming OCI

[nixy]

I think it may depend somewhat on whether you’re at a lottery school or a pre-select school. Mine was pre-select and I think there were some firms that listed preferences (in terms of rank percentile, not GPA, i.e. “top 15% preferred”), though I’m honestly not sure if that came from the firm or my career services office. But firms are never going to acknowledge them as firm cutoffs, especially since they’re never going to say “we’ll take median from Harvard but you need top 10% from UT” (to give a made up example). It’s like applying to schools - Harvard always says there are no cutoffs for lsat/gpa, but of course we know there are. Judges who say they want to hire from the top 25% of a class are probably thinking of the T14, not Cooley.

Again, to the extent you’re going to get any useful information along these lines, it will be from your school’s career office talking about firms that historically hire from your school, not from the firms themselves.

[Anonymous User]

Do firms ever publicly disclose their GPA cutoffs? Is there a source to find a list of GPA cutoffs per firm? This would be very helpful for upcoming OCI

We had spreadsheets showing the median (and IIRC the 25th/75th percentiles) GPA for each firm at 2L OCI. I don't remember if the data reflected offers given or offers accepted. While the 25/50/75 percentiles might not show an exact cutoff, they are really useful for figuring out whether you are in range for that firm. If a firm's 25th was, say, a 3.6, then a student with a 3.3 would focus elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

CLS's data that shows how the previous year's bids worked out lists some GPA cutoffs, but most of them are complete hocus.

[trebekismyhero]

As has already been stated, it's difficult to track GPA cutoffs for different Vault levels. But, in general, what are the cutoffs like for firms at the end of the V100 rankings (think: Fox Rothschild, Ballard Spahr, Davis Wright, Katten)? (anecdotal insight would be helpful)

I can speak to Katten having interviewed there during OCI from a t30 school and basically it is the same as others mentioned, you need to be top 1/4. Also, depends heavily on the school. If you are applying to Katten and went to WashU, ND, or Illinois, you'll have a much better chance than if you went to say the University of Washington. I am guessing for Davis Wright, the reverse would be true, you'd have a much better chance if the t30 you went to was UW.

For these same firms, do you think an applicant outside of top 1/4 still has a chance if they have a competitive clerkship?

Possibly. It likely depends more on their hiring needs than anything else. If they are hiring for several positions they'll probably be less picky than if they have one spot open.

[2013]

As has already been stated, it's difficult to track GPA cutoffs for different Vault levels. But, in general, what are the cutoffs like for firms at the end of the V100 rankings (think: Fox Rothschild, Ballard Spahr, Davis Wright, Katten)? (anecdotal insight would be helpful)

I can speak to Katten having interviewed there during OCI from a t30 school and basically it is the same as others mentioned, you need to be top 1/4. Also, depends heavily on the school. If you are applying to Katten and went to WashU, ND, or Illinois, you'll have a much better chance than if you went to say the University of Washington. I am guessing for Davis Wright, the reverse would be true, you'd have a much better chance if the t30 you went to was UW.

For these same firms, do you think an applicant outside of top 1/4 still has a chance if they have a competitive clerkship?

Possibly. It likely depends more on their hiring needs than anything else. If they are hiring for several positions they'll probably be less picky than if they have one spot open.

This also depends on school. If you’re aiming for Fox Rothschild NY, not being in top 1/4 at Fordham won’t be a dealbreaker. If you’re at Iowa, it could be.

[Anonymous User]

Possibly. It likely depends more on their hiring needs than anything else. If they are hiring for several positions they'll probably be less picky than if they have one spot open.

This is an important factor for firms with small incoming classes. By and large, they do less clerk hiring than the huge shops. They might hire a few clerks some years, but they might not have space for any if they over-estimated their needs with that year’s incoming summer class. So, it probably makes sense to apply to all of them (and also to apply to all of the higher-ranked, huge firms that bring in 100+ new associates in their NYC offices).

[Anonymous User]

I think you need an even more impressive GPA for the lower V100 coming from outside of the T14 because of smaller class-size.

In my experience coming from a T50, it was easier to get a V10 lit job than anything else in the V100 purely based on class-size. In my case, I saw that Willkie or Kramer Levin were less impressive in lit/lower-ranked generally, so I thought I’d have a better chance there with a high GPA. Yet it turned out that firms of that size were not as focused or as willing to review non-T14 applicants from a mass-mail perspective (unless there was a satellite in my school’s region). From an OCI perspective, the smaller or lower-ranked firms were much less visible for my kind of school than places in the V10 that had the resources to interview a T50 student. It almost seems like you miss big law altogether outside of the T14 if you don’t land a big V10-20 office in NY or have an office in your region.

This was my experience also. I was top 5% from a T25-T40ish state school, and I had a MUCH harder time getting interviews with smaller firms in the lower V100. I got at least a screener from every V25 firm I applied to, but the lower-ranked firms were really hit or miss. I figured it was because the firms that were only taking a handful of summers could easily fill their SA classes without looking at resumes outside of the T14, while the big firms couldn't fill their classes without either looking at more schools or dropping standards at the T14s.

[Anonymous User]

At least at my t14,

Very grade selective firms (top 10% or better): Cravath, S&C, Cleary, DC firms like Covington, W&C, Wilmer, A&P.

Grade selective firms (top 30% or better): Paul Weiss, Skadden, DPW

Somewhat grade selective (above median or better): Simpson, Kirkland

Not that selective (around median is fine): Latham, Weil

Don’t apply if you aren’t ranked first in your class: Wachtell

This doesn't look much like grade selectivity tiers at UChicago fwiw. All of Latham's offices are more selective than S&C for example. If you're at Chicago you have these numbers so I don't feel the need to post them but the general point is that ymmv depending on your school. Also differs a ton by market; Kirkland Chicago is comparable to Cravath, but neither is especially selective by the standards of the DC market for example.

[Anonymous User]

At least at my t14,

Very grade selective firms (top 10% or better): Cravath, S&C, Cleary, DC firms like Covington, W&C, Wilmer, A&P.

Grade selective firms (top 30% or better): Paul Weiss, Skadden, DPW

Somewhat grade selective (above median or better): Simpson, Kirkland

Not that selective (around median is fine): Latham, Weil

Don’t apply if you aren’t ranked first in your class: Wachtell

This doesn't look much like grade selectivity tiers at UChicago fwiw. All of Latham's offices are more selective than S&C for example. If you're at Chicago you have these numbers so I don't feel the need to post them but the general point is that ymmv depending on your school. Also differs a ton by market; Kirkland Chicago is comparable to Cravath, but neither is especially selective by the standards of the DC market for example.

Wait, are you saying Latham NY is more grade selective than S&C NY? That’s just simply not true. Latham is known for being not grade selective at all. Maybe Latham DC might be more grade selective than Latham NY, but I still doubt Latham DC is more grade selective than S&C NY.

[Anonymous User]

At least at my t14,

Very grade selective firms (top 10% or better): Cravath, S&C, Cleary, DC firms like Covington, W&C, Wilmer, A&P.

Grade selective firms (top 30% or better): Paul Weiss, Skadden, DPW

Somewhat grade selective (above median or better): Simpson, Kirkland

Not that selective (around median is fine): Latham, Weil

Don’t apply if you aren’t ranked first in your class: Wachtell

This doesn't look much like grade selectivity tiers at UChicago fwiw. All of Latham's offices are more selective than S&C for example. If you're at Chicago you have these numbers so I don't feel the need to post them but the general point is that ymmv depending on your school. Also differs a ton by market; Kirkland Chicago is comparable to Cravath, but neither is especially selective by the standards of the DC market for example.

Wait, are you saying Latham NY is more grade selective than S&C NY? That’s just simply not true. Latham is known for being not grade selective at all. Maybe Latham DC might be more grade selective than Latham NY, but I still doubt Latham DC is more grade selective than S&C NY.

Yeah genuinely confused by the poster as well. The above grade selectivity looks pretty accurate to me, though I would place Kirkland with the Latham and Weil tier.

[Anonymous User]

There are a lot of reasons someone on TLS could get some firms' grade standards wrong (maybe they or their friend with great grades got dinged, or vice versa, and the poster is over-extrapolating from one experience, for example). But this underscores why actual data from career services is useful if you can get it: if 10 people from your school went to a firm and 8 of them were in the top third, that suggests that being top third-ish puts you in play.

(I didn't go to UChicago, so I don't know if Latham is more selective there than at other schools. Maybe that poster was right, maybe he wasn't. But the general point about data stands, and the overall point that Vault rankings aren't a good metric for grade selectivity does, too).

[Anonymous User]

There are a lot of reasons someone on TLS could get some firms' grade standards wrong (maybe they or their friend with great grades got dinged, or vice versa, and the poster is over-extrapolating from one experience, for example). But this underscores why actual data from career services is useful if you can get it: if 10 people from your school went to a firm and 8 of them were in the top third, that suggests that being top third-ish puts you in play.

(I didn't go to UChicago, so I don't know if Latham is more selective there than at other schools. Maybe that poster was right, maybe he wasn't. But the general point about data stands, and the overall point that Vault rankings aren't a good metric for grade selectivity does, too).

I am the anon who posted the list. I generally agree with what you said.

I was actually referring to my school’s call back data when I was making that list. Maybe some top students at UChi just happen to choose Latham over other firms, but that still does not mean Latham is grade selective.

Also, I think v10 distinction does matter in terms of grade selectivity with some exceptions including Latham. It seems like v10 firms’ gpa cutoffs (at least at my school) are a lot higher than those of lower-ranked firms (of course excluding some DC firms and litigation boutiques). Also, if you haven’t seen it already, there is a summary of deferral decisions showing that only 2 out of v10s deferred start dates to 2021, 4 out of v20s, 8 out of v30s, and so on. I see a pattern here.
With all that said, I agree Vault putting Skadden over Wachtell is dumb. Also, many DC firms are ranked pretty low compared to their selectivity. But, I don’t think it’s completly useless.

[Anonymous User]

My previous post was based on actual callback (not accepted offer) data at UChicago. S&C is well-known for going almost down to median here. Latham NY is more significantly selective than S&C NY here. Latham DC is approximately as grade-selective as WLRK (like most top DC offices).

That this surprises you was the point; different firms are more or less selective at different schools. "Prestigious" NYC V5s are often very promiscuous at Chicago because they all (except WLRK) have serious yield problems because most students who can get Chicago, DC, Cali, etc. firms prefer them.

[Anonymous User]

Here are the rough tiers of grade selectivity at Chicago fwiw. Obviously some have small sample sizes but I tried to cut firms that rarely hire from Chicago.

25th above 180 (top 10%): MTO, Susman, Williams & Connolly

25th above 179 (top 30%): Barack Ferrazano (Chi), Covington (all offices), Gibson Dunn (NY/DC), Irell & Manella (LA), Jenner (DC), Jones Day (LA/SF/DC), Latham (Chi/DC), O'Melveny (SF), Quinn Emmanuel (all offices), Ropes (DC), WLRK, WilmerHale (DC)

25th above 178.5: Baker Botts (Houston), Cleary (DC), Gibson Dunn (Dallas/LA/SF), Jones Day (Chi/Dallas), Latham (LA), Mayer Brown (DC), MoFo (SF), O'Melveny (LA), Ropes (SF), Sidley Austin (LA), STB (DC), Skadden (LA/DC), Steptoe (Chi), White & Case (Chi)

25th above 178: Cravath, Eimer Stahl (Chi), Jenner (Chi), Kirkland (Chi/DC), Latham (NY/SF/SV), O'Melveny (OC), Schiff Hardin (Chi), Skadden (Chi)

25th above 177.5: Arnold & Porter (DC), Cleary (NY), Goodwin (Bos), Jones Day (NY), McDermott (Chi), Miller Shakman (Chi), O'Melveny (DC), Paul Hastings (Chi/NY/DC), Paul Weiss (NY), Ropes (Bos/Chi), Sidley Austin (Chi/DC), Skadden (Houston), S&C (NY),

25th above 177 (median): Allen & Overy (NY), Baker Botts (DC), Cooley (SF), Davis Polk (NY), Debevoisie (NY), DLA Piper (Chi), Jones Day (SV), Fried Frank (NY), Katten (Chi), Kirkland (Dallas/LA), Mayer Brown (Chi/NY), MoFo (LA), O'Melveny (NY), Paul Hastings (LA), Sidley Austin (Dallas), STB (NY), Steptoe (DC), V&E (Houston), White & Case (DC), WSGR (NY), Winston (Chi)

Notable firms with 25th below median: Baker Botts (NY), Baker McKenzie (Chi), Cadwaler (NY), Cooley (SV), Crowell (DC), Dechert (NY), Faegre (Chi), Foley (Chi), Freshfields (NY), Fried Frank (NY), Greenberg Traurig (Chi), Gunderson (NY), Hughes Hubbard (NY), Jackson Walker (all), Kirkland (Houston/NY), Mayer Brown (LA), Milbank (NY), Norton Rose (all), Perkins Coie (Chi), Reed Smith (Chi), Ropes (NY), Shearman (NY), Sidley Austin (Houston/NY/SF), STB (SV), Skadden (NY/SV), White & Case (NY), WilmerHale (NY), WSGR (LA/SF/SV), Winston (NY)

[Anonymous User]

S&C is well-known for going almost down to median here. Latham NY is more significantly selective than S&C NY here.

Oh I understood what you are saying before, but the data above just does not align with your statement above. For example, it seems that Cleary NY, S&C NY are still in the above-median range and I can’t even find Latham NY in the data. Also, your point that students prefer Chi, LA, and DC to NY also makes sense, but again what does that have to do with Latham NY?

If you actually have Latham NY vs other NY v5 call back data, I would love to see it.

[Anonymous User]

S&C is well-known for going almost down to median here. Latham NY is more significantly selective than S&C NY here.

Oh I understood what you are saying before, but the data above just does not align with your statement above. For example, it seems that Cleary NY, S&C NY are still in the above-median range and I can’t even find Latham NY in the data. Also, your point that students prefer Chi, LA, and DC to NY also makes sense, but again what does that have to do with Latham NY?

If you actually have Latham NY vs other NY v5 call back data, I would love to see it.

Cleary and S&C have 25ths in the low 170.x range so they undoubtedly take some below-median students (170.0 is median, maybe more like 170.1-2). Latham NY is on the list and in the fourth bucket with Cravath, significantly more selective than either. Clearly the NY hierarchy of selectivity at Chicago is different from what was posted before, so school matters, but overall city is much more important than firm for selectivity (DC > Chi/Cali > NY/Tex).

[Anonymous User]

S&C is well-known for going almost down to median here. Latham NY is more significantly selective than S&C NY here.

Oh I understood what you are saying before, but the data above just does not align with your statement above. For example, it seems that Cleary NY, S&C NY are still in the above-median range and I can’t even find Latham NY in the data. Also, your point that students prefer Chi, LA, and DC to NY also makes sense, but again what does that have to do with Latham NY?

If you actually have Latham NY vs other NY v5 call back data, I would love to see it.

Cleary and S&C have 25ths in the low 170.x range so they undoubtedly take some below-median students (170.0 is median, maybe more like 170.1-2). Latham NY is on the list and in the fourth bucket with Cravath, significantly more selective than either. Clearly the NY hierarchy of selectivity at Chicago is different from what was posted before, so school matters, but overall city is much more important than firm for selectivity (DC > Chi/Cali > NY/Tex).

Woops. Sorry I missed that. If true, Latham NY being more grade selective than Cleary NY or S&C NY at Chi is truly very surprising to me (Btw, I am not comparing Latham DC/Chi to NYC v5). At my t14, it’s exactly the opposite, people below median can pretty easily secure offers from Latham NY, but S&C and Cleary will only give callbacks to people with 3.8ish gpa or above.

Also I don’t know how decimals work at UChi, but Latham NY is in 178.0 or above category while Cleary and S&C are in 177.5 or above category. Does 0.5 difference mean “significantly more selective”?
If that is true, you said 170.0 is the median, so I would say Latham NY, Cleary NY, and S&C NY are all in significantly above median range. No? What’s going on here, haha.

All in all, as I said, your point being location matters is well-taken. I am just saying that Latham NY is not more grade selective than Cleary NY or S&C NY at any other schools except UChi (apparently).