Debevoise Defers Forum

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise just pushed everyone back approximately three weeks. So Sept-->October and October-->November.

Should this be a reason to start looking around? Don't want this to be a thing were its continually being deferred until I find myself in January along with the rest of the firms. They also offered no compensation... which makes me even more likely to look around.. I mean at least the other firms are offering some sort of compensation until January. What if Debevoise keeps deferring with no compensation until we find ourselves in January holding an empty pale? Thoughts??

P.S. This is a very real possibility (i.e., continual three week deferrals with no compensation) given the fluidity of the New York bar...

Anon for obvious reasons.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to hear that. I was deferred to January in another major market without compensation (just an advance). I have started to mail other firms within the same market that have been favorable in the past to hiring 3Ls and recent grads. I know the chances of another offer are slim, but I share the same worry as you that a firm that has deferred once can easily do it again. I wonder about the reputation hit from applying elsewhere, but in these times I feel like it's every person for him/herself and no shame in searching for other firms that have given their incoming class more security and certainty. Obviously, this is just my feeling since I'm not on the other side.

[Edit] Yeah OP, November is still really good compared to other firms.

[CPA-->JD]

Is this a joke? October/November start dates are as good or better than every other firm. Think its entirely reasonable to push back three weeks so you can take the bar before starting.

[Sackboy]

Is this a joke? October/November start dates are as good or better than every other firm. Think its entirely reasonable to push back three weeks so you can take the bar before starting.

I dislike being harsh to OPs, because forums SHOULD be a place to ask questions. It is, however, apparent that not a lot of critical thinking went into the original post. I don't think there is a single elite law firm starting in September, though correct me if I'm wrong.

[Anonymous User]

And where exactly would you go? Which firm is offering to start associates in September? There aren't really better start dates on offer at any firm in the market, and Debevoise was offering the earliest start dates of all firms that had announced their dates when they offered in September. October and November aligns the firm with other early starters, such as Cravath and Wachtell.

Starting associates in September would not have given them an opportunity to take the bar exam, which would mean that the firm would have had to have given associates time off later to study for the bar exam, which, as you might imagine, is quite infeasible and undesirable for all involved. The firm is also offering a normal advance to the incoming class to sustain them through this period.

Sounds like you may just want to leave the firm anyway, regardless of start dates.

IMO, Debevoise has been one of the best firms in terms of start dates of all firms in the market so far.

By all means, though, if you are so angry about having to start in October that you want to go to a firm that starts you in ... January? Then go ahead. It doesn't sound very logical though.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I think some of you might be missing the point of this post. Yes, October and November are great start dates respective to other peer firms. This I do not dispute. The question posed, however, which some of you seemed to have glanced over, is the prospect of continual deferrals. There is a very real possibility of "another wave" in the fall. A scenario, when combined with the seasonal flu, could, in all likelihood, postpone the New York bar yet again. Thus, the October/November start dates could easily become November/December or even January 2021 at that point. During all of this time, no compensation or additional advances would be offered. This scenario is what the original post was referring to. So, at this point, one might at least shop around to the firm that offered compensation in the meantime. This would seem logical no?

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

[Anonymous User]

Is this a joke? October/November start dates are as good or better than every other firm. Think its entirely reasonable to push back three weeks so you can take the bar before starting.

I dislike being harsh to OPs, because forums SHOULD be a place to ask questions. It is, however, apparent that not a lot of critical thinking went into the original post. I don't think there is a single elite law firm starting in September, though correct me if I'm wrong.

Williams & Connolly is starting onboarding next week, but it's a small firm and a different case, so generally agree with the above--a few weeks don't matter a ton.

[bwh8813]

It's a free market, so feel free to look around. I wouldn't get your hopes up though.

[cjm2018]

I won't repeat what everyone else has said about the truly minor nature (in the context of what all of the other firms are doing right now) of the decision to push you a month back. (Not to mention, your wish is to jump to another firm that has confirmed a Fall start date, but they could, you know, do exactly what Debevoise just did and defer their currently confirmed start date in the case of an additional wave too.)

What I will emphasize is that your belief that you would get an offer to come on as a stub-year associate at one of the few firms (currently) offering Fall start dates (which reads as a list of the most selective law firms in the nation) in what is the worst legal economy in a decade shows immense disconnection from the reality that law firms are, above all things, a business. Why would any of these firms take on an additional line on the payroll whom they don't even know right now? What are you really offering them that they don't have and need? There are plenty of 2-4 year associates (who can actually be profitable to the firms) that they could poach in an instant if they really wanted to and actually needed the bodies.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I think some of you might be missing the point of this post. Yes, October and November are great start dates respective to other peer firms. This I do not dispute. The question posed, however, which some of you seemed to have glanced over, is the prospect of continual deferrals. There is a very real possibility of "another wave" in the fall. A scenario, when combined with the seasonal flu, could, in all likelihood, postpone the New York bar yet again. Thus, the October/November start dates could easily become November/December or even January 2021 at that point. During all of this time, no compensation or additional advances would be offered. This scenario is what the original post was referring to. So, at this point, one might at least shop around to the firm that offered compensation in the meantime. This would seem logical no?

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

To me it’s clear that Debevoise deferred to October/November starts because of the switch to an online October bar exam instead of the September in person exam. I think it’s unlikely there will be further deferrals unless the October exam does not happen. If that is the case, my instincts say Debevoise will offer additional compensation (at least an advance) to help their first years survive until Diploma Privilege happens or until the bar exam happens.

And if there is a second wave, which I assume and agree is likely, it seems logical that Debevoise will onboard associates remotely. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Debevoise has already said they will do remote onboarding. So why would a second wave change that? Unless you think they’ll decide to defer further because the economy worsens due to a second wave, which is possible. But if it happens it won’t just be Debevoise that is affected so I’m not sure what is gained by going to another firm.

It’s your life and your career so look around if you want but I agree with the other poster that said you won’t do much better.

[Wild Card]

November is still normal. Late-Oct. / early Nov. was a common start time pre-pandemic.

If you're that qualified, go ahead and shop around.

[cheaptilts]

OP here.

I think some of you might be missing the point of this post. Yes, October and November are great start dates respective to other peer firms. This I do not dispute. The question posed, however, which some of you seemed to have glanced over, is the prospect of continual deferrals. There is a very real possibility of "another wave" in the fall. A scenario, when combined with the seasonal flu, could, in all likelihood, postpone the New York bar yet again. Thus, the October/November start dates could easily become November/December or even January 2021 at that point. During all of this time, no compensation or additional advances would be offered. This scenario is what the original post was referring to. So, at this point, one might at least shop around to the firm that offered compensation in the meantime. This would seem logical no?

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

Institutional racism is a stretch. Biglaw is quite literally the only sub-industry of law where some employers offer stipends and salary advances to prospective at-will employees months prior to prospective start dates. I’m unaware of any other industry (maybe banking) that would do the same. And certainly not most companies outside of the white-collar space.

Law firms are businesses and will almost always operate with a view toward their bottom line. I suggest you do the same—although I don’t know what firm(s) you’d lateral you that will absolutely guarantee a fall start date for you outside of the bankruptcy space.

[Skool]

November is still normal. Late-Oct. / early Nov. was a common start time pre-pandemic.

Right? This face alone shows that some of our young COVID whippersnappers don’t quite have perspective.

OP, totally get why you’re stressed out, but you’ll get through it. Many people of color have had to do a lot more with a lot less in this country. Don’t lose perspective.

[Wild Card]

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

This has nothing to do with race. Black != poor and White != rich. Regardless of color, the vast majority of students at top law schools come from upper middle class or wealthy backgrounds.

Also, you are not going to default, because Congress and the President have deferred collection of payments and interest until Dec. 31.

And stay the fuck at home until you start work. You are not entitled to live a posh NYC lifestyle before you start.

There is no best game in town. All firms are willing to fire you at any time and for any reason. You don't sound like you'll last long, so be grateful a firm as good as Debevoise was willing to hire you in the first place.

[addie1412]

Most firms with fall starts are waiting until after the remote October bar exam. It never made sense to start people in September with the bar scheduled for October 5-6 (and I think Debevoise decided on September prior to NY's decision to move to October), so this is entirely unsurprising. Now, if and when the remote exam is a technological disaster and states decide to push us all to February/July 2021, I imagine there will be a split between firms that allow people to start in the fall without having taken the bar yet, and firms that continue to defer start dates into March and beyond. If Deb turns out to be one of the latter and doesn't offer a stipend, it would absolutely make sense to start looking elsewhere at that point. Not that you're likely to have much luck, but it would be worth a shot.

[cheaptilts]

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

This has nothing to do with race. Black != poor and White != rich. Regardless of color, the vast majority of students at top law schools come from upper middle class or wealthy backgrounds.

Also, you are not going to default, because Congress and the President have deferred collection of payments and interest until Dec. 31.

And stay the fuck at home until you start work. You are not entitled to live a posh NYC lifestyle before you start.

There is no best game in town. All firms are willing to fire you at any time and for any reason. You don't sound like you'll last long, so be grateful a firm as good as Debevoise was willing to hire you in the first place.

To be fair, even at top schools, there is a disparity between BIPOC (as a group) and their white counterparts (as a group) when it comes to socioeconomic status.

But Debevoise’s actions are just not indicative of institutional racism—or at least any sort of institutional racism not equally applicable to almost all major companies in the country.

[legalpotato]

OP here.

I think some of you might be missing the point of this post. Yes, October and November are great start dates respective to other peer firms. This I do not dispute. The question posed, however, which some of you seemed to have glanced over, is the prospect of continual deferrals. There is a very real possibility of "another wave" in the fall. A scenario, when combined with the seasonal flu, could, in all likelihood, postpone the New York bar yet again. Thus, the October/November start dates could easily become November/December or even January 2021 at that point. During all of this time, no compensation or additional advances would be offered. This scenario is what the original post was referring to. So, at this point, one might at least shop around to the firm that offered compensation in the meantime. This would seem logical no?

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

I am truly sorry this happened to you and I feel really terrible for everyone who had to graduate in 2020 - truly a terrible set of circumstances. With that said, 2 things:

1) Debevoise has a reputation of being a good place to work and relatively mindful as far as biglaw goes -- maybe a Latham/K&E might hire you if you shop around (probably not though), but if things started getting really really bad, I would bet Debevoise makes more of an effort to not fire its first years than Latham.

2) From a personal development standpoint, not that you want my advice, but I would maybe seriously re-evaluate myself if my mind so easily went where yours did in the bolded. First, it is pretty racist on your end to assume that something like this only affects URM and also to assume that it affects all URM. Second, institutional racism is real, but so is "victim mentality," and that mentality is a huge stumbling block.

Good luck and hope everything works out for you (serious).

[Reese1]

One might add, furthermore, that the lack of compensation or advance offered by Debevoise is yet another example of institutional racism. The assumption seems to be that everyone can sustain themselves for an additional three weeks (or perhaps longer) without additional resources. This might be fine for the white, middle class folks out there, but what about us BIPOC? Some of us didn't grow up with the silver spoon, and these three additional weeks without pay could mean the difference between defaulting on student loans, not enough money to pay for food, or falling behind on rent payments.

So yes, fault me if I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to find the best game in town that takes care of its people.

This has nothing to do with race. Black != poor and White != rich. Regardless of color, the vast majority of students at top law schools come from upper middle class or wealthy backgrounds.

Also, you are not going to default, because Congress and the President have deferred collection of payments and interest until Dec. 31.

And stay the fuck at home until you start work. You are not entitled to live a posh NYC lifestyle before you start.

There is no best game in town. All firms are willing to fire you at any time and for any reason. You don't sound like you'll last long, so be grateful a firm as good as Debevoise was willing to hire you in the first place.

To be fair, even at top schools, there is a disparity between BIPOC (as a group) and their white counterparts (as a group) when it comes to socioeconomic status.

But Debevoise’s actions are just not indicative of institutional racism—or at least any sort of institutional racism not equally applicable to almost all major companies in the country.

This there anywhere you can direct me that says this? I would be super interested in looking at how those numbers play out. Not trying to be sarcastic at all, just generally interested.

[Anonymous User]

Reddit has a helpful spreadsheet of firm start date changes for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... rst_years/

It seems like OP's claim that Debevoise is offering its incoming class less financial support than other firms is not true. Debevoise is giving a $15k advance, whereas Kirkland is giving only a $10k stipend for an October 19 start date.

Debevoise is also starting its associates earlier than Latham, and its October 12th start date is tied for earliest start date with Wachtell. The firm is starting its associates earlier than Latham, and around the same time as Kirkland.

Overall, OP doesn't really have any other options here. If OP is at risk of financial hardship, perhaps he should push for an October 12 start, reach out of the firm, or take out a loan? Debevoise has confirmed a remote start in any case, meaning there is no need for the OP to move to NYC and raise their cost of living.

[Anonymous User]

Reddit has a helpful spreadsheet of firm start date changes for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... rst_years/

It seems like OP's claim that Debevoise is offering its incoming class less financial support than other firms is not true. Debevoise is giving a $15k advance, whereas Kirkland is giving only a $10k stipend for an October 19 start date.

Debevoise is also starting its associates earlier than Latham, and its October 12th start date is tied for earliest start date with Wachtell. The firm is starting its associates earlier than Latham, and around the same time as Kirkland.

Overall, OP doesn't really have any other options here. If OP is at risk of financial hardship, perhaps he should push for an October 12 start, reach out of the firm, or take out a loan? Debevoise has confirmed a remote start in any case, meaning there is no need for the OP to move to NYC and raise their cost of living.

Is this just classic TLS singling Latham out b/c 2009 or is there some other reason for this particular comparison? Latham has an October 26 start option, which is earlier than both Cravath's (November 16) and SullCrom's (November 9). Kirkland's is one week earlier than LW's. Plus LW gave us a $15k summer stipend, not advance, in addition to a $3k relocation bonus, both of which were paid out all the way back in April during peak COVID panic.

[Anonymous User]

Reddit has a helpful spreadsheet of firm start date changes for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... rst_years/

It seems like OP's claim that Debevoise is offering its incoming class less financial support than other firms is not true. Debevoise is giving a $15k advance, whereas Kirkland is giving only a $10k stipend for an October 19 start date.

Debevoise is also starting its associates earlier than Latham, and its October 12th start date is tied for earliest start date with Wachtell. The firm is starting its associates earlier than Latham, and around the same time as Kirkland.

Overall, OP doesn't really have any other options here. If OP is at risk of financial hardship, perhaps he should push for an October 12 start, reach out of the firm, or take out a loan? Debevoise has confirmed a remote start in any case, meaning there is no need for the OP to move to NYC and raise their cost of living.

Is this just classic TLS singling Latham out b/c 2009 or is there some other reason for this particular comparison? Latham has an October 26 start option, which is earlier than both Cravath's (November 16) and SullCrom's (November 9). Kirkland's is one week earlier than LW's. Plus LW gave us a $15k summer stipend, not advance, in addition to a $3k relocation bonus, both of which were paid out all the way back in April during peak COVID panic.

Anon post above. I didn't necessarily mean to single out Latham, it was just mentioned as a firm that could potentially hire OP above. I more just wished to emphasize that other firms aren't offering start dates any earlier than Debevoise, or benefits that are that much more generous.

[Anonymous User]

Reddit has a helpful spreadsheet of firm start date changes for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... rst_years/

It seems like OP's claim that Debevoise is offering its incoming class less financial support than other firms is not true. Debevoise is giving a $15k advance, whereas Kirkland is giving only a $10k stipend for an October 19 start date.

Debevoise is also starting its associates earlier than Latham, and its October 12th start date is tied for earliest start date with Wachtell. The firm is starting its associates earlier than Latham, and around the same time as Kirkland.

Overall, OP doesn't really have any other options here. If OP is at risk of financial hardship, perhaps he should push for an October 12 start, reach out of the firm, or take out a loan? Debevoise has confirmed a remote start in any case, meaning there is no need for the OP to move to NYC and raise their cost of living.

Is this just classic TLS singling Latham out b/c 2009 or is there some other reason for this particular comparison? Latham has an October 26 start option, which is earlier than both Cravath's (November 16) and SullCrom's (November 9). Kirkland's is one week earlier than LW's. Plus LW gave us a $15k summer stipend, not advance, in addition to a $3k relocation bonus, both of which were paid out all the way back in April during peak COVID panic.

Anon post above. I didn't necessarily mean to single out Latham, it was just mentioned as a firm that could potentially hire OP above. I more just wished to emphasize that other firms aren't offering start dates any earlier than Debevoise, or benefits that are that much more generous.

Totally missed that! Thanks for clarifying.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

There is a very real possibility of "another wave" in the fall. A scenario, when combined with the seasonal flu, could, in all likelihood, postpone the New York bar yet again. Thus, the October/November start dates could easily become November/December or even January 2021 at that point. During all of this time, no compensation or additional advances would be offered. This scenario is what the original post was referring to.

The above assumes that the firm would offer no salary advance or comp IF further deferrals were implemented. Why would you assume that? At present, the firm has deferred for 3 weeks, and it seems eminently reasonable for them to not roll out some sort of salary advance or comp program for those 3 weeks. If the deferral period is extended for some material amount of time, I'd bet the firm would also offer a salary advance or comp program. Also, if all else fails, it would not be unreasonable to ask HR about the potential for a salary advance if necessary in your situation. I understand your anxiety, but you should relax.

Unintentional anon. I'm alawyer2018.