What's going on at Skadden?

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am

As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.

JusticeSquee

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by JusticeSquee » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.
Jesus Christ you are insufferable. Skadden deferred to January where others did not. An entire class year is being fucked over because Skadden partners are more cravenly greedy than other firms Skadden would like to consider "peers" and so Skadden should be shamed for the shithole that it is.

This is not complicated. XOXOHTH.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.
I think this makes sense in a broad career sense. I think the "just don't go to firms that do things that screw junior associates" is really the better move for anyone who is likely to leave within the first 4-5 years (I.e., most people), though. I say this as a Skadden midlevel.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Spectator » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:47 pm

JusticeSquee wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.
Jesus Christ you are insufferable. Skadden deferred to January where others did not. An entire class year is being fucked over because Skadden partners are more cravenly greedy than other firms Skadden would like to consider "peers" and so Skadden should be shamed for the shithole that it is.

This is not complicated. XOXOHTH.
And this, my friends, is why I ask "What's going on at Skadden?"

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by anonbanker » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:38 pm
In 2020, they:
are #1 in US IPOs
are #1 in SPAC IPOs
(20 IPOs, $12B)
are #1 in Global Equity Offerings (34, $35B)
are #1 issuer-side in equity linked offerings ($7B)
have done 27 pipes totaling approximately $12B
have done 94 IG-grade offerings totaling approximately $74B
have done 19 liability management transactions totaling $18B

So probably not particularly hurting.
So as a guy who manipulates league tables for a living...

What's up with M&A there and what are they hiding?

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RedGiant

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by RedGiant » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am

JusticeSquee wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.
Jesus Christ you are insufferable. Skadden deferred to January where others did not. An entire class year is being fucked over because Skadden partners are more cravenly greedy than other firms Skadden would like to consider "peers" and so Skadden should be shamed for the shithole that it is.

This is not complicated. XOXOHTH.
For all of you who think that Skadden is "screwing you" or "making a big mistake" or "can't financially handle onboarding a new class of associates" you are showing how much you don't understand about biglaw.

OCI and being a summer are about wooing you. First year of being an associate is about putting you to work, profitably, and showing you just how far down the law firm hierarchy you are (answer--very low). If Skadden isn't starting you now, it's because they're FOCUSING ON RUNNING THEIR BUSINESS, not on how a relatively small group of incoming associates feel.

From all of the posts upthread, you may have gleaned that they're projecting flat revenue and profits--that's a win. And if they don't meet those projections, they're down. They're doing everything they can to run their business, and keep their (existing) associates billing. Teaching and onboarding you, and then writing off a decent portion of your time...that's not helpful right now. It's a necessary evil that needs to take place, because they have to have a class your year or they will have holes later. But it's not a priority.

Am I unsympathetic. No--of course this sucks for you. Many students don't have five months of rent and food money just sitting around after law school ends. This is hard. But know that cowtowing to the once golden summer associates is OVER. You've signed on the dotted line. They aren't wooing you anymore. They know that existing associates don't have a lot of options to leave and the pyramid is not winnowing at the same rate. They know they can bill out the class of '19 and not write off their time in the way they would have to write yours off. They know the '19 cohort is up to speed in a way you're not.

So sure, are they OK with the hit to be "less prestigious"? Yes, they are. They've decided they are and they've also noticed they're still able to recruit a competent class each year, so it really only matters to you. No one else.

If anything, I'd be worrying less about how you are treated, and more about how you are going to shine when you get there, because there's a very real chance your class will be a "lost year" in that the kids who start in the Fall after you may leapfrog you. Your class may get less experience and be less "favored" than those who start at a regular cadence and onboard in a non-remote fashion. (Source: worked at Latham in '07-'09...this actually happened.)

Chin up, and definitely quit whinging. Because your sense of entitlement is palpable and it's not going to go over well when you finally start work.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:54 am

RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am
JusticeSquee wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.
Jesus Christ you are insufferable. Skadden deferred to January where others did not. An entire class year is being fucked over because Skadden partners are more cravenly greedy than other firms Skadden would like to consider "peers" and so Skadden should be shamed for the shithole that it is.

This is not complicated. XOXOHTH.
For all of you who think that Skadden is "screwing you" or "making a big mistake" or "can't financially handle onboarding a new class of associates" you are showing how much you don't understand about biglaw.

OCI and being a summer are about wooing you. First year of being an associate is about putting you to work, profitably, and showing you just how far down the law firm hierarchy you are (answer--very low). If Skadden isn't starting you now, it's because they're FOCUSING ON RUNNING THEIR BUSINESS, not on how a relatively small group of incoming associates feel.

From all of the posts upthread, you may have gleaned that they're projecting flat revenue and profits--that's a win. And if they don't meet those projections, they're down. They're doing everything they can to run their business, and keep their (existing) associates billing. Teaching and onboarding you, and then writing off a decent portion of your time...that's not helpful right now. It's a necessary evil that needs to take place, because they have to have a class your year or they will have holes later. But it's not a priority.

Am I unsympathetic. No--of course this sucks for you. Many students don't have five months of rent and food money just sitting around after law school ends. This is hard. But know that cowtowing to the once golden summer associates is OVER. You've signed on the dotted line. They aren't wooing you anymore. They know that existing associates don't have a lot of options to leave and the pyramid is not winnowing at the same rate. They know they can bill out the class of '19 and not write off their time in the way they would have to write yours off. They know the '19 cohort is up to speed in a way you're not.

So sure, are they OK with the hit to be "less prestigious"? Yes, they are. They've decided they are and they've also noticed they're still able to recruit a competent class each year, so it really only matters to you. No one else.

If anything, I'd be worrying less about how you are treated, and more about how you are going to shine when you get there, because there's a very real chance your class will be a "lost year" in that the kids who start in the Fall after you may leapfrog you. Your class may get less experience and be less "favored" than those who start at a regular cadence and onboard in a non-remote fashion. (Source: worked at Latham in '07-'09...this actually happened.)

Chin up, and definitely quit whinging. Because your sense of entitlement is palpable and it's not going to go over well when you finally start work.
Don't Skadden incoming associates kind of have a legitimate beef here though? Considering how many other top NY firms are offering fall start dates (including firms like Wachtell, Debevoise, and Latham that are offering dates as early as October), I can imagine that if I was at Skadden, I would be a little resentful, particularly if the firm is doing financially ok.

Is it really that entitled to expect Skadden to treat its incoming class as well as other peer firms are? They aren't asking for more than what others are receiving, the reality is Skadden is providing them less than their peers.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by JusticeSquee » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:54 am
RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am
JusticeSquee wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
[Insufferable & Idiotic Bootlicker Screed, Volume I]
Jesus Christ you are insufferable. Skadden deferred to January where others did not. An entire class year is being fucked over because Skadden partners are more cravenly greedy than other firms Skadden would like to consider "peers" and so Skadden should be shamed for the shithole that it is.

This is not complicated. XOXOHTH.
[Insufferable & Idiotic Bootlicker Screed, Volume II]
Don't Skadden incoming associates kind of have a legitimate beef here though? Considering how many other top NY firms are offering fall start dates (including firms like Wachtell, Debevoise, and Latham that are offering dates as early as October), I can imagine that if I was at Skadden, I would be a little resentful, particularly if the firm is doing financially ok.

Is it really that entitled to expect Skadden to treat its incoming class as well as other peer firms are? They aren't asking for more than what others are receiving, the reality is Skadden is providing them less than their peers.
It is 100% not entitled to expect Skadden to treat its incoming class in a comparable manner to its peers (Cravath, Kirkland, Latham, Davis Polk, Milbank, Debevoise). RedGiant's take on this is idiotic. Onboarding associates earlier rather than later allows those associates (many of whom are in deep student debt and living in high COL areas) access to health insurance, other benefits, not to mention a paycheck. The only reason Skadden deferred is to pad the pockets of its partners. This is craven greed, and nothing more.

TL;DR: Skadden deferred its associates when its peers did not. It is a TTT shithole.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Joachim2017 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:19 pm

Yeah, I agree that RedGiant's long take above is a bad one. It fails to put Skadden's actions in its proper context. Sure, in a vacuum, OF COURSE it's true that Skadden is "just trying to run its business." No one is denying that.

The point is that Skadden took particular actions that many of it's (so-called) peers did not, and it did so not in order to just "run its business" but to allocate $$$ to partners relative to associates. Other firms could have chosen to do that and did not: they were generous (or just humane) to young associates coming in, depending on having insurance, health care, rent, etc. It's a move to maximize profit in one aspect of its business. Not some "we gotta save the company, it's nothing personal, we're not running a charity here" line that Red Giant seems to think.

(If ALL or MOST of the top Vault firms did what Skadden did, than that would be a different story and maybe Red Giant's take wouldn't be so myopic.)

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by addie1412 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:21 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am
JusticeSquee wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:52 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:18 am
As a public service for anyone in law school or considering law school, I would like to point out that assessing firms on this basis is pointless and likely detrimental to your career.

You should evaluate a firm based on the people you will be working with and the strength of its practice in your practice area of choice (e.g., someone here was saying Cleary is not a white shoe firm, which of course it is; but more importantly, if you want to practice tax, e.g., it has one of the premier tax practices in the U.S. -- incidentally, along with Skadden). Once you are in the "real world," it is clear that no one cares about or really knows where firms stack against one another unless they are in the business of legal recruiting. Clients care about the expertise and responsiveness (and cost) of the partners they work with.

Think about it this way, if I need advice on how to launch a special purpose investment vehicle, to own some energy assets -- will I care about the prestige of the firm's litigation practice? No, I care about the particular partner or group of partners I am working with.
Jesus Christ you are insufferable. Skadden deferred to January where others did not. An entire class year is being fucked over because Skadden partners are more cravenly greedy than other firms Skadden would like to consider "peers" and so Skadden should be shamed for the shithole that it is.

This is not complicated. XOXOHTH.
For all of you who think that Skadden is "screwing you" or "making a big mistake" or "can't financially handle onboarding a new class of associates" you are showing how much you don't understand about biglaw.

OCI and being a summer are about wooing you. First year of being an associate is about putting you to work, profitably, and showing you just how far down the law firm hierarchy you are (answer--very low). If Skadden isn't starting you now, it's because they're FOCUSING ON RUNNING THEIR BUSINESS, not on how a relatively small group of incoming associates feel.

From all of the posts upthread, you may have gleaned that they're projecting flat revenue and profits--that's a win. And if they don't meet those projections, they're down. They're doing everything they can to run their business, and keep their (existing) associates billing. Teaching and onboarding you, and then writing off a decent portion of your time...that's not helpful right now. It's a necessary evil that needs to take place, because they have to have a class your year or they will have holes later. But it's not a priority.

Am I unsympathetic. No--of course this sucks for you. Many students don't have five months of rent and food money just sitting around after law school ends. This is hard. But know that cowtowing to the once golden summer associates is OVER. You've signed on the dotted line. They aren't wooing you anymore. They know that existing associates don't have a lot of options to leave and the pyramid is not winnowing at the same rate. They know they can bill out the class of '19 and not write off their time in the way they would have to write yours off. They know the '19 cohort is up to speed in a way you're not.

So sure, are they OK with the hit to be "less prestigious"? Yes, they are. They've decided they are and they've also noticed they're still able to recruit a competent class each year, so it really only matters to you. No one else.

If anything, I'd be worrying less about how you are treated, and more about how you are going to shine when you get there, because there's a very real chance your class will be a "lost year" in that the kids who start in the Fall after you may leapfrog you. Your class may get less experience and be less "favored" than those who start at a regular cadence and onboard in a non-remote fashion. (Source: worked at Latham in '07-'09...this actually happened.)

Chin up, and definitely quit whinging. Because your sense of entitlement is palpable and it's not going to go over well when you finally start work.
None of this is relevant in the least. What's relevant is Skadden deferred and comparable firms did not. Point blank. So those other firms apparently care more about how a "relatively small group of incoming associates feel" than Skadden does. At Skadden incoming associates are "not a priority," as you yourself pointed out. At other firms, apparently we're more of a priority (source: going to a firm starting us in October). I'm sure this will matter to future classes in the coming years deciding between Skadden and peer firms. Why would any future 2L choose Skadden knowing that their incoming associates are clearly treated as low-priority, as your post so clearly reveals, when they have other options that have been treating incoming associates better? 8 out of 10 V10 firms have not deferred, and all of this is well-documented: https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... rst_years/.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by JusticeHarlan » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:31 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am
For all of you who think that Skadden is "screwing you" or "making a big mistake" or "can't financially handle onboarding a new class of associates" you are showing how much you don't understand about biglaw.
I was really excited for this post, since it promised to explain so much about biglaw to the rest of this thread. Let's see how much we all learned!
RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am
OCI and being a summer are about wooing you. First year of being an associate is about putting you to work, profitably, and showing you just how far down the law firm hierarchy you are (answer--very low). If Skadden isn't starting you now, it's because they're FOCUSING ON RUNNING THEIR BUSINESS, not on how a relatively small group of incoming associates feel.

From all of the posts upthread, you may have gleaned that they're projecting flat revenue and profits--that's a win. And if they don't meet those projections, they're down. They're doing everything they can to run their business, and keep their (existing) associates billing. Teaching and onboarding you, and then writing off a decent portion of your time...that's not helpful right now. It's a necessary evil that needs to take place, because they have to have a class your year or they will have holes later. But it's not a priority.

Am I unsympathetic. No--of course this sucks for you. Many students don't have five months of rent and food money just sitting around after law school ends. This is hard. But know that cowtowing to the once golden summer associates is OVER. You've signed on the dotted line. They aren't wooing you anymore. They know that existing associates don't have a lot of options to leave and the pyramid is not winnowing at the same rate. They know they can bill out the class of '19 and not write off their time in the way they would have to write yours off. They know the '19 cohort is up to speed in a way you're not.

So sure, are they OK with the hit to be "less prestigious"? Yes, they are. They've decided they are and they've also noticed they're still able to recruit a competent class each year, so it really only matters to you. No one else.

If anything, I'd be worrying less about how you are treated, and more about how you are going to shine when you get there, because there's a very real chance your class will be a "lost year" in that the kids who start in the Fall after you may leapfrog you. Your class may get less experience and be less "favored" than those who start at a regular cadence and onboard in a non-remote fashion. (Source: worked at Latham in '07-'09...this actually happened.)

Chin up, and definitely quit whinging. Because your sense of entitlement is palpable and it's not going to go over well when you finally start work.
Jeez, who would have guessed that the mystical truths about biglaw this poster was so magnanimously willing to bestow on us was that (*checks notes*) biglaw partners like money and don't care as much about incoming junior associates.

WOW, WHAT A HUGELY IMPORTANT AND NOVEL THOUGHT, KNOWN TO NO ONE ELSE, THAT WAS TOTALLY WORTHY OF ALL CAPS!!!!!1

You're simultaneously telling people they shouldn't complain and then listing any number of things that are negatively affecting them, things that aren't affecting similarly situated people at any number of other firms that aren't pushing back their start dates. Why exactly shouldn't they complain about those very things?

Everyone saying Skadden is screwing them over is absolutely correct, and they're not saying that because they lack your super special knowledge about how biglaw partners like money, they're saying it because it's true. And it's true for the very reasons you listed! If revenue is flat, if firm finances are fine, then they can absolutely afford to start people without going broke! But they don't want to because it would cost them money! It turns out that people who like money sometimes do things that negatively affect those over whom they have power because they can make more money by doing so. That's what "screwing" someone means here, genius. That's what people in this thread have been saying. You made their argument for them, you just appear to have some weird issue with people pointing it out.

Those affected want to discuss it, they want to plan for it, they want to make sure others who might be affected in the future by similar decisions are aware of what this one firm is doing so they might choose a different firm if they have options during subsequent OCIs. What is your problem with all that, and why does it offend you so much?

Really, you should just stop your whinging about it. Chin up.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:54 pm

[accidental anon]

Windjammer

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Windjammer » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:55 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:03 am
If anything, I'd be worrying less about how you are treated, and more about how you are going to shine when you get there, because there's a very real chance your class will be a "lost year" in that the kids who start in the Fall after you may leapfrog you. Your class may get less experience and be less "favored" than those who start at a regular cadence and onboard in a non-remote fashion. (Source: worked at Latham in '07-'09...this actually happened.)
Chin up, and definitely quit whi[n]ing. Because your sense of entitlement is palpable and it's not going to go over well when you finally start work.
This is Nathan'd
He got Latham'd
He ain't Saddened
You got Skaddened

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RedGiant

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by RedGiant » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am

I get that you're upset. You have a right to complain. But I really, truly would worry about how to get up to speed ASAP and how to be productive (and still pay your rent) over the next few months. Because that's what you can control.

You are looking at these firms as comps in terms of how they treat their summers/incoming associates. They look at themselves as peers based on PPP or how well they can attract lateral talent (if they even take lateral partner talent--a few V10s do not.)

So yes, this is unfortunate for the incoming Skadden associates. Biglaw's gonna be rough for you if expect everyone to be treated equally all the time. The kid down the hall from you may get staffed on the headline case or deal while you slog on something unglamorous. Some kids will become pets of very famous partners and you may not. This is not school anymore. It's not equal. It's not fair. It's a very competitive slugfest at some firms just to see who gets staffed on what, who gets placed in a good group, who gets to do another rotation. Vault rankings do not dictate how firms run their business--Amlaw rankings and revenue and profits do.

And if you think that V10 partners are super-magnanimous or charitable, well--you should be disavowed of that illusion quickly once you work in biglaw. There are lifestyle firms where associates are treated very, very nicely. The tippy top of biglaw is not that--the client is king, and most partners do not care a lick whether they give you an awful assignment at 7pm on a Friday night, or ask you to come in on Thanksgiving, or you do multiple all nighters. The sooner you learn you are a monkey scribe or replaceable cog, the better. The stories I could tell--partners asking pregnant associates to work after their babies stopped moving due to stress; the associate who was called back to the printer from the emergency room; the associate who barely made it to his wife's bedside when she gave birth; the associates who missed weddings and funerals. Partners are not generous--they protect the firm. They have done the calculus and they have let you know that they feel that starting your class late, even if some peers did not, is not catastrophic for Skadden. Why? Because SA classes next year will be so small that they'll still snag plenty of good talent. It will be a blip, you will be upset, the firm will live on. That doesn't make it right. It is what it is--they're in charge and you're not.

Feel free to flame me once again. Sorry to be your tough love Mod here.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by addie1412 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:20 am

RedGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am
I get that you're upset. You have a right to complain. But I really, truly would worry about how to get up to speed ASAP and how to be productive (and still pay your rent) over the next few months. Because that's what you can control.

You are looking at these firms as comps in terms of how they treat their summers/incoming associates. They look at themselves as peers based on PPP or how well they can attract lateral talent (if they even take lateral partner talent--a few V10s do not.)

So yes, this is unfortunate for the incoming Skadden associates. Biglaw's gonna be rough for you if expect everyone to be treated equally all the time. The kid down the hall from you may get staffed on the headline case or deal while you slog on something unglamorous. Some kids will become pets of very famous partners and you may not. This is not school anymore. It's not equal. It's not fair. It's a very competitive slugfest at some firms just to see who gets staffed on what, who gets placed in a good group, who gets to do another rotation. Vault rankings do not dictate how firms run their business--Amlaw rankings and revenue and profits do.

And if you think that V10 partners are super-magnanimous or charitable, well--you should be disavowed of that illusion quickly once you work in biglaw. There are lifestyle firms where associates are treated very, very nicely. The tippy top of biglaw is not that--the client is king, and most partners do not care a lick whether they give you an awful assignment at 7pm on a Friday night, or ask you to come in on Thanksgiving, or you do multiple all nighters. The sooner you learn you are a monkey scribe or replaceable cog, the better. The stories I could tell--partners asking pregnant associates to work after their babies stopped moving due to stress; the associate who was called back to the printer from the emergency room; the associate who barely made it to his wife's bedside when she gave birth; the associates who missed weddings and funerals. Partners are not generous--they protect the firm. They have done the calculus and they have let you know that they feel that starting your class late, even if some peers did not, is not catastrophic for Skadden. Why? Because SA classes next year will be so small that they'll still snag plenty of good talent. It will be a blip, you will be upset, the firm will live on. That doesn't make it right. It is what it is--they're in charge and you're not.

Feel free to flame me once again. Sorry to be your tough love Mod here.
This has yet to be determined. Let's check back in a year.

What you're still missing here is that law students have no better basis on which to choose among seemingly identical firms than how those firms treat incoming and junior associates. For those who don't plan on staying in biglaw more than a few years, there is no more rational way to choose a firm than asking questions like: 1) did they defer incoming associates? 2) did they give a deferral stipend or an advance? and 3) did they lay off juniors?

The fact of the matter is that Skadden has failed where other firms have not in the measures that are most important for law students in trying to distinguish firms. To argue that that will have no effect on future recruiting efforts, at least over the next several years (obviously, institutional memory isn't forever), seems a little obtuse. You said yourself: "OCI and being a summer are about wooing you."

How do you "woo" students when you deferred incoming associates last year and almost every other firm those students will also have offers from did not?

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 am

addie1412 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:20 am
This has yet to be determined. Let's check back in a year.
Regardless of whether you agree with the rest of RedGiant's post(s), they're almost certainly right that Skadden won't see a dip in the quality of their applicant pool. Latham certainly didn't, and they did far worse to their people.

The fact is that 2Ls don't do any real research on firms before OCI. They look at Vault rankings. They maybe talk to friends. Remember, a significant chunk of them have literally never held a full-time job, so there's no clear expectation of what they should expect/demand from an employer.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by sms18 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:44 am

RedGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am
I get that you're upset. You have a right to complain. But I really, truly would worry about how to get up to speed ASAP and how to be productive (and still pay your rent) over the next few months. Because that's what you can control.

You are looking at these firms as comps in terms of how they treat their summers/incoming associates. They look at themselves as peers based on PPP or how well they can attract lateral talent (if they even take lateral partner talent--a few V10s do not.)

So yes, this is unfortunate for the incoming Skadden associates. Biglaw's gonna be rough for you if expect everyone to be treated equally all the time. The kid down the hall from you may get staffed on the headline case or deal while you slog on something unglamorous. Some kids will become pets of very famous partners and you may not. This is not school anymore. It's not equal. It's not fair. It's a very competitive slugfest at some firms just to see who gets staffed on what, who gets placed in a good group, who gets to do another rotation. Vault rankings do not dictate how firms run their business--Amlaw rankings and revenue and profits do.

And if you think that V10 partners are super-magnanimous or charitable, well--you should be disavowed of that illusion quickly once you work in biglaw. There are lifestyle firms where associates are treated very, very nicely. The tippy top of biglaw is not that--the client is king, and most partners do not care a lick whether they give you an awful assignment at 7pm on a Friday night, or ask you to come in on Thanksgiving, or you do multiple all nighters. The sooner you learn you are a monkey scribe or replaceable cog, the better. The stories I could tell--partners asking pregnant associates to work after their babies stopped moving due to stress; the associate who was called back to the printer from the emergency room; the associate who barely made it to his wife's bedside when she gave birth; the associates who missed weddings and funerals. Partners are not generous--they protect the firm. They have done the calculus and they have let you know that they feel that starting your class late, even if some peers did not, is not catastrophic for Skadden. Why? Because SA classes next year will be so small that they'll still snag plenty of good talent. It will be a blip, you will be upset, the firm will live on. That doesn't make it right. It is what it is--they're in charge and you're not.

Feel free to flame me once again. Sorry to be your tough love Mod here.
No one on this thread said biglaw should treat everyone fairly or that biglaw partners are magnanimous or charitable... they were just noting that Skadden is treating the incoming associates differently than their peer firms (which is an important metric for law students/OCI). You also imply that people at school, unlike at real world, get treated "fairly" (sound likes you never had to deal with being a minority) - no one on this thread believes that to be the case, so honestly I don't get the point of your long winded post. (Not flaming you, just noting that there seems to be some disconnect.)

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by JusticeHarlan » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:27 am

RedGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am
I get that you're upset.
I'm sorry you have unresolved issues about this, and it's causing you to lash out at others, maybe it would be more productive if you got the help you needed before posting again?

See how productive it is to begin a post by casting aspersions on the other party and starting from a baseline assumption that they're not acting rationally? You're off to another banging start here.
RedGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am
You have a right to complain.
Thanks so much for that concession from your initial position of "shut up and take it, morons."
RedGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am
But I really, truly would worry about how to get up to speed ASAP and how to be productive (and still pay your rent) over the next few months. Because that's what you can control.
I don't know why anyone has to explain this to you, since you're apparently not a four year old child, but posting on TLS has nothing to do with preventing anyone from "getting up to speed." It's possible to call Skadden out on their policies and still look for a way to pay rent. Crazy, I know, but apparently to you those are incompatible actions. People can complain about work in one setting and still show up for work the next day and be a good employee. Shocking, right? Someone can rake their firm through the coals on TLS and still find the time to figure out how to be the proper, obsequious drones you're advising them to be in the office. Just like you can be a strident, condescending pseudo-authority figure in this thread and still show up for work ready to kiss ass and take notes the next day. Incoming associates have plenty of time to figure out "how to get up to speed" since, again, their firm is screwing them over in terms of start time. Did you really think posting in this thread was going to stop someone from paying their rent? Really? That's an argument you're making? Get off TLS or you'll be living on the street? Only a reminder from the "tough love Mod" is going to prevent hoards of TLS users from getting eviction notices on their door?

Calling out Skadden in this thread has absolutely zero to do with how incoming Skadden associates comport themselves once they do start work. Zip, nada, nothing. If anything, some people might find it cathartic to complain in a safe environment. Your instance in multiple posts now that somehow posting in this thread is going to set someone back in their firm career is so bizarre it borders on pathological.

Again, maybe you're dealing with unresolved issues for you on this subject?
RedGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:49 am
You are looking at these firms as comps in terms of how they treat their summers/incoming associates. They look at themselves as peers based on PPP or how well they can attract lateral talent (if they even take lateral partner talent--a few V10s do not.)

So yes, this is unfortunate for the incoming Skadden associates. Biglaw's gonna be rough for you if expect everyone to be treated equally all the time. The kid down the hall from you may get staffed on the headline case or deal while you slog on something unglamorous. Some kids will become pets of very famous partners and you may not. This is not school anymore. It's not equal. It's not fair. It's a very competitive slugfest at some firms just to see who gets staffed on what, who gets placed in a good group, who gets to do another rotation. Vault rankings do not dictate how firms run their business--Amlaw rankings and revenue and profits do.

And if you think that V10 partners are super-magnanimous or charitable, well--you should be disavowed of that illusion quickly once you work in biglaw. There are lifestyle firms where associates are treated very, very nicely. The tippy top of biglaw is not that--the client is king, and most partners do not care a lick whether they give you an awful assignment at 7pm on a Friday night, or ask you to come in on Thanksgiving, or you do multiple all nighters. The sooner you learn you are a monkey scribe or replaceable cog, the better. The stories I could tell--partners asking pregnant associates to work after their babies stopped moving due to stress; the associate who was called back to the printer from the emergency room; the associate who barely made it to his wife's bedside when she gave birth; the associates who missed weddings and funerals. Partners are not generous--they protect the firm. They have done the calculus and they have let you know that they feel that starting your class late, even if some peers did not, is not catastrophic for Skadden. Why? Because SA classes next year will be so small that they'll still snag plenty of good talent. It will be a blip, you will be upset, the firm will live on. That doesn't make it right. It is what it is--they're in charge and you're not.

Feel free to flame me once again. Sorry to be your tough love Mod here.
Again, EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS BIGLAW PARTNERS LIKE MONEY, THIS IS NOT BRAND NEW INFORMATION AND NO ONE IS GOING TO GET DOWN ON THEIR KNEES TO THANK YOU AND WORSHIP AT THE ALTAR OF THE SELF-PROCLAIMED "TOUGH LOVE MOD" FOR TELLING US THIS. Sorry that's not the worshipful praise you thought you were going to get when you barreled into this thread, dropping truth bombs. Is the savior complex part of your unresolved issues, too?

What I don't understand is: is this a new TLS policy that we're not supposed to criticize law firms? Is it because Skadden is a big client of Harrison Barnes or something, so a mod has to come in and defend them and say their particular transgression here doesn't matter, don't discourage anyone from going to Skadden? Because throughout the history of this site, we've had thread after thread after thread about how biglaw sucks, how it's a terrible place to work, how partners can be unreasonable, how clients can be godawful to deal with, but so much of your experience is specific to which firm, which group and which partner you're working with, so let's have discussions about those specific firms and groups and partners and call out what specifically is bad about them. It's a big chunk of the content here. Complaining about biglaw firms, delineating the degrees of awfulness of particular posters' situations, are TLS staples. Are we not supposed to do that anymore because now the official company line is that all firm sucks, they all like money, they'll be able to hire people anyways, so just suck it up, so sayth the Tough Love Mod (TM)?

And yes, they'll still be able to fill a summer class, but why make their job easier for them by telling those affected to shut up about the firm's actions? Make them own it. Make their actions as visible as possible. TLS should be in a position to put firms on blast for what they do, not covering up for them. It won't change the world of legal hiring but it can affect people's choices on the margins. If someone sees a thread like this and realizes a particular firm has a partnership that isn't worried about short term bad press when it comes to screwing over their associates, that person might make a different decision and be benefited by the information here. What's so wrong with that?

"Why are you complaining about X, I've seen Y and it was even worse, you're not going to do well in biglaw if you're complaining about X, law firm Z will still get associates, stop whining" is a response that fits with literally any complaint about literally any firm. That's the logical conclusion of your position, no complaints actually merit discussion since, hey, that's biglaw. Are you trying to shut down all negative talk about law firms on TLS or something?

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:37 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:27 am
What I don't understand is: is this a new TLS policy that we're not supposed to criticize law firms?
Dude.

Mods post their personal opinions all the time. Sometimes we even disagree with each other. We're not some sort of official TLS mouthpiece (admins, on the other hand, do speak for the site).

If there were actually a TLS policy against this, these threads wouldn't exist. No one's telling you not to "put firms on blast" (as the kids say); someone just disagreed with you. You disagreed right back. Literally nothing has changed.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by JusticeHarlan » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:37 am
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:27 am
What I don't understand is: is this a new TLS policy that we're not supposed to criticize law firms?
Dude.

Mods post their personal opinions all the time. Sometimes we even disagree with each other. We're not some sort of official TLS mouthpiece (admins, on the other hand, do speak for the site).

If there were actually a TLS policy against this, these threads wouldn't exist. No one's telling you not to "put firms on blast" (as the kids say); someone just disagreed with you. You disagreed right back. Literally nothing has changed.
They don't usually post personal opinion while crowing about their position as a mod, though. That blurs the line. Given the very sketchy way everything about the sale to Harrison Barnes occurred, I've got my hackles raised about this site, and the "tough love Mod" making a flailing argument for everyone to just shut up about the new owner's clientele while brandishing their mod title isn't a good look at all. It certainly makes more sense than taking his argument at face value. You're right though, what makes the most sense is to chalk this one up to an appeal to authority in defense of terrible argument.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:01 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am
cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:37 am
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:27 am
What I don't understand is: is this a new TLS policy that we're not supposed to criticize law firms?
Dude.

Mods post their personal opinions all the time. Sometimes we even disagree with each other. We're not some sort of official TLS mouthpiece (admins, on the other hand, do speak for the site).

If there were actually a TLS policy against this, these threads wouldn't exist. No one's telling you not to "put firms on blast" (as the kids say); someone just disagreed with you. You disagreed right back. Literally nothing has changed.
They don't usually post personal opinion while crowing about their position as a mod, though. That blurs the line.
I've brought this up before in the mod-complaint thread. They don't care, which isn't outrageous but it rubs me the wrong way as well. Especially when it's paired with wack contrarian sentiments like "effectively furloughing your associates for months longer than the competition is no biggie"

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:01 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am
cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:37 am
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:27 am
What I don't understand is: is this a new TLS policy that we're not supposed to criticize law firms?
Dude.

Mods post their personal opinions all the time. Sometimes we even disagree with each other. We're not some sort of official TLS mouthpiece (admins, on the other hand, do speak for the site).

If there were actually a TLS policy against this, these threads wouldn't exist. No one's telling you not to "put firms on blast" (as the kids say); someone just disagreed with you. You disagreed right back. Literally nothing has changed.
They don't usually post personal opinion while crowing about their position as a mod, though. That blurs the line. Given the very sketchy way everything about the sale to Harrison Barnes occurred, I've got my hackles raised about this site, and the "tough love Mod" making a flailing argument for everyone to just shut up about the new owner's clientele while brandishing their mod title isn't a good look at all. It certainly makes more sense than taking his argument at face value. You're right though, what makes the most sense is to chalk this one up to an appeal to authority in defense of terrible argument.
I can't speak for the other mods, but I have yet to meet Harrison Barnes. Personally, I'm offended. I was expecting much more bribery and other lucrative forms of corruption.

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JusticeHarlan

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by JusticeHarlan » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:07 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:01 am
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:56 am
cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:37 am
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:27 am
What I don't understand is: is this a new TLS policy that we're not supposed to criticize law firms?
Dude.

Mods post their personal opinions all the time. Sometimes we even disagree with each other. We're not some sort of official TLS mouthpiece (admins, on the other hand, do speak for the site).

If there were actually a TLS policy against this, these threads wouldn't exist. No one's telling you not to "put firms on blast" (as the kids say); someone just disagreed with you. You disagreed right back. Literally nothing has changed.
They don't usually post personal opinion while crowing about their position as a mod, though. That blurs the line. Given the very sketchy way everything about the sale to Harrison Barnes occurred, I've got my hackles raised about this site, and the "tough love Mod" making a flailing argument for everyone to just shut up about the new owner's clientele while brandishing their mod title isn't a good look at all. It certainly makes more sense than taking his argument at face value. You're right though, what makes the most sense is to chalk this one up to an appeal to authority in defense of terrible argument.
I can't speak for the mods, but I have yet to meet Harrison Barnes. Personally, I'm offended. I was expecting much more bribery and other lucrative forms of corruption.
You're the one working for him for free, feel free to quit or demand better remuneration. This isn't Skadden, you're allowed to complain and pay your rent.

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by Daboose » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:14 am

I know people are getting hung up on the whole Skadden thing (and this is a Skadden thread after all) but I think RedGiant has some other interesting points to consider.

The deferrals suck and hopefully there are consequences for the firms, but at this point, there isn't much the starting class can do about it. I doubt they'll be able to find other jobs so they may just have to make the best of the situation.

I think Redbird is also saying that whether or not you are deferred, the onboarding process for the new associates is going to be tough with COVID and you don't want to fall behind. It's a high risk, high reward situation. Those biglaw associates that survived the financial crisis in my market were the ones with the least resistance in their path to partnership or generally other good exit options.

If you want to put a positive spin on this, consider that while you are deferred, you don't have to worry about falling behind your classmates at your firm. If you start in January maybe you'll have a significantly better onboarding process that gives you a bit more runway at the firm. Of course you'd rather start sooner but trying to give a positive frame of reference. If you start at your firm with a negative outlook, that can picked up by the other associates very quickly and they won't want to work with you. `

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Re: What's going on at Skadden?

Post by addie1412 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:09 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 am
addie1412 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:20 am
This has yet to be determined. Let's check back in a year.
Regardless of whether you agree with the rest of RedGiant's post(s), they're almost certainly right that Skadden won't see a dip in the quality of their applicant pool. Latham certainly didn't, and they did far worse to their people.

The fact is that 2Ls don't do any real research on firms before OCI. They look at Vault rankings. They maybe talk to friends. Remember, a significant chunk of them have literally never held a full-time job, so there's no clear expectation of what they should expect/demand from an employer.
I wasn’t in law school a decade ago so I’m going off of things I’ve heard/read, but it was my impression that Latham took a hit for at least a few years after the last recession. Again, I’m not saying that kind of thing lasts forever. Most current law students don’t know/remember. But I’ve definitely spoken to associates who specifically turned down LW because of ‘09. In fact, you get older posters in here all the time saying things like “wow, so Latham’s not a pariah anymore?” Which implies that they did, at one point, take a recruiting hit.

This is also a little different than the last recession in terms of the wide availability of information about firms’ actions. I had to do a lot of digging to research what specific firms did in ‘09. Resources like that Reddit thread I posted upthread make it a lot easier to directly compare firms on the basis of a few key criteria.

Also, I can’t speak for all law students, but at H/S students with their pick of seemingly identical high-ranked Vault firms definitely do at least some research to try to distinguish. And again, the amount of digging that would have to be done to discover that Skadden was among only two V10 firms to defer is extremely minimal. Speaking to friends even a year older would reveal this information, as would, again, a cursory reddit search.
Last edited by addie1412 on Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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