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Can we all talk about how bad/okay/good Big Law life really is? I've always heard the whispers on horror stories of Associates working nonstop and 12 hour days 7 days a week, but would really like to learn about what the real experiences are. Like are weekends still a must? Do Associates really get calls and assignments at all hours? Do Associates really still have to be in the office by 8am and out no earlier than 7pm? (Office taken metaphorically at this point since COVID). I'm relying on all of you to decide if I should try to make a jump from a Amlaw 200 to Big Law. Much thanks in advance!

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:22 am

Can we all talk about how bad/okay/good Big Law life really is? I've always heard the whispers on horror stories of Associates working nonstop and 12 hour days 7 days a week, but would really like to learn about what the real experiences are. Like are weekends still a must? Do Associates really get calls and assignments at all hours? Do Associates really still have to be in the office by 8am and out no earlier than 7pm? (Office taken metaphorically at this point since COVID). I'm relying on all of you to decide if I should try to make a jump from a Amlaw 200 to Big Law. Much thanks in advance!

This is a stupid post. As if there are not 1,000 threads that discuss Big Law.

Yeah I think we need a bit more context to advise here. Your experience in BigLaw is going to depend on your market, practice group, firm, partner you're working for, and ultimate goals at the firm.

there is variance, but obviously you are only getting paid so much because you are expected to be available whenever it is needed

I am a senior associate at a large (V50) firm that is at the top of its secondary market. I was previously at another firm with a similar profile. I'll answer your questions directly and then give my overall two cents.

Are weekends still a must? Yes, depending on who you work for. It could be every weekend or relatively rare and only in times of real need. I work with people now who treat Saturday and Sunday like any other day and it is awful. But in the past I've gone months without putting in regular time on a weekend or doing anything besides checking (and maybe firing acknowledging responses to) emails.

Calls and assignments at all hours? Yes, again, depending on who you work for. I am in lit and have had stuff dropped on me at 10 pm at night that I had no idea was coming. Or calls at 1 am to discuss the status of projects. It is very partner and group dependent. Generally speaking this is pretty rare unless you work for someone awful, in which case it will happen routinely (rare as in getting stuff dropped on you at truly awful hours, not just 5 pm, which is common for all). Transactional practices will get hit worse with this.

Office hours: no. This might be the only good thing about biglaw. Unless something is scheduled, I find that you can generally roll in at 10 am and no one will bat an eye. You can leave early if you're slow or done with nothing else to do. WFH, even pre-Covid, was well accepted where I worked. The downside with that freedom is that you're expected to be on your phone at all times and ready to jump back on your laptop at a moment's notice, particularly if it's from 10am - 7pm or so. Some firms/groups/partners might have facetime requirements, but I think those are generally the exception.

Overall thoughts: Everything is very practice group, firm, office, and partner specific. I have worked with absolutely great people who took the time to mentor me, gave me guidance without micromanaging, and kept putting me on more matters so I could develop and get more experience. I have worked with (currently work with) caricatures of awful biglaw partners who will belittle you, dump things on you at unreasonable hours, demand responsiveness nearly 24/7, demand immediate turnarounds for everything, and still not have enough work to fill your plate. Unless you know someone in the office you're thinking of joining, it can be very hard to tell what you're in for (though you can tell some by the group/reputation of the firm). My firm is actually known to be relatively relaxed as far as biglaw goes, but I am working almost exclusively for maybe the most brutal partner in the firm and it's completely soul crushing.

As other users have pointed out, there is going to be a high level of variance in biglaw.

At the more humane end, you might work 9-5, get home, and then do a couple of hours of work after dinner. You might only work a couple of weekends a year.

At the monstrous ends, you're billing nearly 60 hours a week every week of the year and that means you're working 72 hours a week if you're at 80% efficiency (can't bill for everything).

People exist at both ends. More generally, however, people exist somewhere in the middle. They might have an office culture where they can leave once its 7pm. Maybe they work half Saturdays and an hour every other Sunday. The partners are generally respectful of them, but they've had to do moderate work on vacations and have definitely thrown away an entire weekend on something that popped up at 4pm on a Friday. They mostly get stable 35-45 hour or so billing weeks, but they also have weeks where they bill 10 hours and are terrified that maybe they pissed off a partner with that assignment submitted last week and this is the end of the road, and they also have weeks where they are working 80 hours and are barely sane by the end of it. Biglaw isn't generally horrible because you're getting waterboarded 24/7 with work like the hypothetical 72hr/wk 50wks/yr associate, though that is horrible. Biglaw is generally horrible because its demands are so unpredictable and intense that there is a constant sense of "any minute now" in terms of your phone ringing or an email popping into your inbox and ruining your night/weekend/week.

If you don't have a significant other on the same wavelength, this can make things more miserable. If you have high student loans, the misery increases. If you live in NYC and are spending $4,000/mo. to live in a modest 1br., the misery goes up a little more. If you are in a niche practice area with bad exit options, crank the misery up one more notch. Etc.

It's not about the work (though that can be bad too). It's about how it generally warps your life in a way that is just exhausting for many.

Sackboy wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:01 am

Biglaw isn't generally horrible because you're getting waterboarded 24/7 with work like the hypothetical 72hr/wk 50wks/yr associate, though that is horrible. Biglaw is generally horrible because its demands are so unpredictable and intense that there is a constant sense of "any minute now" in terms of your phone ringing or an email popping into your inbox and ruining your night/weekend/week...

It's not about the work (though that can be bad too). It's about how it generally warps your life in a way that is just exhausting for many.

This whole post is spot-on, but these parts stick out to me. The job was mentally, physically, and emotionally exhausting.

The thing I hated the most about biglaw was the incessant, sometimes all-encompassing stress of the job. People handle stress, long hours, and the pressure of the job differently. Some don't mind it or just get used to it. It made me miserable. I could not stop thinking and worrying about work at all hours of the day.I would wake up and go to sleep thinking about work.

I hated having to read emails at 2am before bed only to wake up to even more emails at 6am. I hated the constant feeling of looking at the next 2 weeks and realizing I would be working 12-15 hours every day. I felt like I could never relax except for the limited vacation days I took where I was completely off the grid. Even then, work thoughts would pop up in my head and I'd stress about everything piling up while I was out.

As everyone will tell you, it varies tremendously depending on the partner, client, matter, etc. I had some difficult, heavily litigated cases with great partners and would take working with them over doing routine discovery with some of the tyrannical partners I worked with. There were ups and downs, but overall it was a terrible experience. I really don't know how anyone does it long-term.

Let’s say you’re in lit. And let’s assume that you generally really like lit. You find yourself thinking about strategy in the shower, but it’s not in some sort of crazy stressed out way. It’s because lit is always on your mind, and that’s okay with you—it’s what you do (literally). If this sounds like you, you’ll like biglaw. These are the people who thrive in biglaw.

If this doesn’t sound like you, you probably won’t. It is definitely too much work to feel lukewarm about it on a day to day basis.

This all being said, the money jump from lower amlaw200 to market biglaw probably more than justifies whatever difference in hours you’re going to be working. It’s probably worth working an extra 5-10 hours/week to almost double your salary (bonus included).

My two cents.

objctnyrhnr wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:03 am

Let’s say you’re in lit. And let’s assume that you generally really like lit. You find yourself thinking about strategy in the shower, but it’s not in some sort of crazy stressed out way. It’s because lit is always on your mind, and that’s okay with you—it’s what you do (literally). If this sounds like you, you’ll like biglaw. These are the people who thrive in biglaw.

If this doesn’t sound like you, you probably won’t. It is definitely too much work to feel lukewarm about it on a day to day basis.

This all being said, the money jump from lower amlaw200 to market biglaw probably more than justifies whatever difference in hours you’re going to be working. It’s probably worth working an extra 5-10 hours/week to almost double your salary (bonus included).

My two cents.

What if this sounds like you, but you also like to have some weekends/weeknights without having to actually work? Still going to like big law in a non-NYC major market?

Sporty1911 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:32 am

What if this sounds like you, but you also like to have some weekends/weeknights without having to actually work? Still going to like big law in a non-NYC major market?

For the vast majority of folks, biglaw is likely is not for them. Working in certain governmental, non-profit, and regional law firm capacities is probably a much better fit. Even outside of NYC, biglaw is taxing. There is no way to maintain biglaw profitability and revenue metrics without it being a high-intensity experience for the average associate and partner. Secondary market is almost always helpful to life being less stressful, but the fundamental demand flaw doesn't go away. Firms aren't really keen of having a NY office with a 60% profit margin and a Portland office with a 15% profit margin. For firms that do just maintain lower margins across the country, some of them have considerably lower average billable pricing, so you might need the same number of hours to hit a lower profit margin, which obviously does not improve QoL.

Most folks who stay in private practice and want any semblance of a life that isn't purely dedicated to the law or extremely poorly balanced would do best by going to a top local firm in the state/city. The pay is much lower, cases a bit less sexy, and the recognition nowhere near biglaw prefftige, but equity and 1800 billables at a 9-5 pace can actually be a realistic outcome.

Sporty1911 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:32 am

objctnyrhnr wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:03 am

Let’s say you’re in lit. And let’s assume that you generally really like lit. You find yourself thinking about strategy in the shower, but it’s not in some sort of crazy stressed out way. It’s because lit is always on your mind, and that’s okay with you—it’s what you do (literally). If this sounds like you, you’ll like biglaw. These are the people who thrive in biglaw.

If this doesn’t sound like you, you probably won’t. It is definitely too much work to feel lukewarm about it on a day to day basis.

This all being said, the money jump from lower amlaw200 to market biglaw probably more than justifies whatever difference in hours you’re going to be working. It’s probably worth working an extra 5-10 hours/week to almost double your salary (bonus included).

My two cents.

What if this sounds like you, but you also like to have some weekends/weeknights without having to actually work? Still going to like big law in a non-NYC major market?

I’m in a non NYC major market. I’ll often go several weekends in a row without working, then several weekends in a row where I do have to put a chunk in. Similarly, I’ll often go several weeks in a row where I only need to log back on (after signing off at 6pm or so) once or twice max. Then I’ll go a few of weeks in a row where I’m basically going straight through to sleep on the majority, if not all, weeknights.

So yeah. I have a life. I have a family with whom I feel I spend enough time and hobbies and I exercise and usually sleep enough and socialize. But I really don’t have much downtime where I’m not working or doing one of those things.

It’s doable but I’m not gonna tell you it’s easy because it’s not. And as others have said, this can vary a lot based on group and office and firm.

I guess my thinking is why would I want to voluntarily be an associate at a lower amlaw 200 firm for way less money/prestige and only work a little bit less? As an associate, I’d rather work another hour or two a day on average and feel like I’m really well compensated. But maybe that’s just me. And I’m definitely generalizing a good bit, here.

objctnyrhnr wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:59 pm

I guess my thinking is why would I want to voluntarily be an associate at a lower amlaw 200 firm for way less money/prestige and only work a little bit less? As an associate, I’d rather work another hour or two a day on average and feel like I’m really well compensated. But maybe that’s just me. And I’m definitely generalizing a good bit, here.

I think the difference needs to be expectations. If you are going to take the pay cut, in my mind, it needs to be because the expectation is that you respond to the 10pm email the next day/Monday if on the weekend. With the exception that sometimes you will need to have late nights and weekends. But in biglaw generally, the rule is you do it that night/that weekend. I don't think this is the case at lower amlaw 200s, but some boutique corp shops it is reality. Comp is significantly lower, toping out at 250k all in for associate levels (from what I have seen). In my mind, that is for the person who doesn't want in-house but also wants more life style.

It's pretty bad, and I say that as someone that is considered a "rockstar" senior associate and was on partner track before COVID and I decided I just don't care anymore about crushing it. The job can be all-encompassing to the point where there is little you can do outside of work, even on weekends. If you slack off for a week or don't have your head in a good place, you can fall really behind, especially in an M&A practice. Clients demand your time ASAP, partners demand your time, and honestly even the partners seem fairly miserable.

Worst part for me is that since COVID I decided to just start applying to in-house jobs. I'm a 7th year associate with broad corporate and transactional experience and a business background and I've gotten very few bites at all in 2 months. Basically feel like I made it this far for a chance at something better, but I find myself sitting here wondering if all of this is a giant failure on my part to not plan accordingly and get out before I had my "screw this" moment. I'm hoping its just the economy and things pick back up with hiring, but being trapped in biglaw M&A has really started to deteriorate my mental health and make me started questioning what I'm even doing with my life if I can't even get a normal in-house job.

This is highly firm and region specific and obviously partner specific.

At my first firm in a “laid back” secondary market, I made slightly below market, but I worked 9-5:30, rarely had to answer urgent emails after 5:30, worked on average one weekend a month, and billed 1600 with no negative repercussions. There was an associate who billed 2200 hours and my partner was “concerned” that the associate would burn out and leave. The firm’s billable expectation was 1850 for a bonus, but people moved up in class standing if they had good reviews.

My new firm is in a major city NY/Chicago/DC and it’s brutal, especially after my first experience. I’m expected to be on call at all times and I’m regularly required to work saturdays/Sundays. I was usually in the office until 8 (pre-Covid)and then had to work with a partner who liked to work at night from 10-12, sometimes later. It’s gotten slightly better with the slowdown, but I’m still on pace for 2100-2200 hours. Also, one partner criticized me for not carrying my weight, so I’m clearly expected to bill a ton.

objctnyrhnr wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:56 pm

Sporty1911 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:32 am

objctnyrhnr wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:03 am

Let’s say you’re in lit. And let’s assume that you generally really like lit. You find yourself thinking about strategy in the shower, but it’s not in some sort of crazy stressed out way. It’s because lit is always on your mind, and that’s okay with you—it’s what you do (literally). If this sounds like you, you’ll like biglaw. These are the people who thrive in biglaw.

If this doesn’t sound like you, you probably won’t. It is definitely too much work to feel lukewarm about it on a day to day basis.

This all being said, the money jump from lower amlaw200 to market biglaw probably more than justifies whatever difference in hours you’re going to be working. It’s probably worth working an extra 5-10 hours/week to almost double your salary (bonus included).

My two cents.

What if this sounds like you, but you also like to have some weekends/weeknights without having to actually work? Still going to like big law in a non-NYC major market?

I’m in a non NYC major market. I’ll often go several weekends in a row without working, then several weekends in a row where I do have to put a chunk in. Similarly, I’ll often go several weeks in a row where I only need to log back on (after signing off at 6pm or so) once or twice max. Then I’ll go a few of weeks in a row where I’m basically going straight through to sleep on the majority, if not all, weeknights.

So yeah. I have a life. I have a family with whom I feel I spend enough time and hobbies and I exercise and usually sleep enough and socialize. But I really don’t have much downtime where I’m not working or doing one of those things.

It’s doable but I’m not gonna tell you it’s easy because it’s not. And as others have said, this can vary a lot based on group and office and firm.

Gotcha. That’s pretty much exactly in line with my expectations, in terms of having waves of busy and less (but still busy by almost any other jobs standards) periods. Personally will be going into a regulatory group where we are opposed to the govt for basically every matter, so while that won’t mean 9-5 for me, I’m hopeful it’ll be less demanding than say M&A or other corporate practices.

Feel like I’m going in with the right expectations and just have to see if I can deal with the lifestyle. I have $0 in undergrad or law school debt, so worst comes to worst I plug through for a couple years, get a nest egg, then bounce.

I oscillate between laughing at how much they pay junior associates to fantasizing about giving notice. When it is slow, this gig is awesome. When it is busy, I regret ever going to law school. Hopefully you end up in a group that because of the partners or the clients is forgiving and has light hours.

Take everything you care about (including health), put it in a garbage dumpster and set that dumpster on fire. Collect $200K+ in return for each year that you can withstand this setup.

Some love it; many can withstand it for a number of years in order to achieve their goals; and others hate it from the start and are absolutely miserable.

Practice area: capital markets at a V10.

Sporty1911 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:29 pm

Gotcha. That’s pretty much exactly in line with my expectations, in terms of having waves of busy and less (but still busy by almost any other jobs standards) periods. Personally will be going into a regulatory group where we are opposed to the govt for basically every matter, so while that won’t mean 9-5 for me, I’m hopeful it’ll be less demanding than say M&A or other corporate practices.

(Depending on practice group): Just wanted to say that when you are slow, it doesnt necessarily mean 'still busy by almost any other jobs standards.' Like you might be slow even by normal job standards, to the point where you are wasting the majority of your day away, but then still logging on at 8PM to respond to emails (or even working weekends) because that's when something comes in. Plus, you dont really get to enjoy it when its slow, because you just worry about billable hours and getting your billables in. Its a weird thing where you could get positive reviews, but then the partner doesnt give you work for whatever reason (because they dont have enough work), then the same partner bitches to you about you not having enough billable hours (because they didnt give them to you).

Obviously with a good manager this wont happen, but law firm partners generally dont get to be partners because they are good managers (but rather because they work really hard). If you get a partner thats a good manager, that's very lucky and can make a world of difference.

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:56 pm

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

Just out of curiosity, are you on the corporate side? Or litigation/niche? I imagine this is harder to find on the corporate side, but I have heard it exists (I posted about it above).

BigLawer wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:56 pm

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

Just out of curiosity, are you on the corporate side? Or litigation/niche? I imagine this is harder to find on the corporate side, but I have heard it exists (I posted about it above).

That is a fair point. I'm commercial lit.

I am an incoming associate at a small-ish biglaw firm that seems fairly humane. I plan to do biglaw for 1-3 years and go in house at basically the first decent opportunity (I am willing to take a substantial paycut). I have no debt and a decent amount of savings due to an inheritance. I'm basically doing biglaw for: (1) the resume line and (2) a year or two of the biglaw pay to add to my savings/investments.

Is the mental pressure easier to deal with when you don't have loans to pay off and you're really just hoping to coast until a decent in house opportunity comes along? I'm hoping that I can just be an average associate and worry less about things like billables, especially as I get closer to becoming a realistic candidate for in house positions.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:56 pm

Just want to hone in on the mental pressure being a huge factor, whether or not you are busy by big law standards, regular job standards, or whatever. As someone who jumped from Big Law to a top local as a mid-level, I can tell you that the pay cut was 100% worth the mental relief. It certainly took some time to reverse my conditioning, but I no longer panic at the sound of my phone after 6 pm or on a weekend. Even when it is work, unless it truly is an emergency, nothing can't wait until tomorrow/Monday. And when it can't wait, the amount of apologetic the partners and clients are for asking, and the amount of appreciative they are for the work, truly feels genuine and is a big motivational boost. Making the choice for me literally came down to calculating "Can I live the lifestyle I want with a paycut of X%?" As soon as the answer was "Yes", I left and have no intention of ever looking back.

I want to second this. Just before COVID, I made the jump (as a midlevel) from a top DC lit practice to government. Took a big pay cut, but the improvement to my mental health was 100% worth it. It is awful to wake up some mornings and think "hope I can juggle my work well enough this week that I'm doing most of it during normal work hours and don't have lots of late nights/weekends." The billable hour is what makes biglaw suck—though you might already be aware of that/be okay with it.

Also, this probably depends on the person, but I really found myself having moral qualms about a lot of the work I was doing/clients I was spending a lot of time representing. In my experience, you turn into a harder, colder person the longer you spend in biglaw.

Finally, I enjoy having interests and passions outside biglaw. Perhaps this is just my limited experience, but a large number of biglaw attorneys I know have a somewhat zombie-like affect outside the office, and don't really have much to say about anything other than work. (These are people who were otherwise sparkling/enthusiastic personalities before starting in biglaw.) That, to my mind, is a decent reason to steer clear.

Finally, I enjoy having interests and passions outside biglaw. Perhaps this is just my limited experience, but a large number of biglaw attorneys I know have a somewhat zombie-like affect outside the office, and don't really have much to say about anything other than work. (These are people who were otherwise sparkling/enthusiastic personalities before starting in biglaw.)

Oh my god this is totally me - I feel so awkward talking to non-corporate-lawyer folks now after spending half a decade in big law. Catch me on an LOI negotiation conference call @ work and I am a monster - confident, eloquent, engaging; ask me about something during light conversation at a family bbq - I'm stuttering and bumbling over my words trying to keep eye contact at least 20% of the conversation.