Biglaw Burnout - Quit or Get Fired? Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP here - straight up TRUTH. It's crazy that I've done this job for 6 years, have had nothing but praise and amazing reviews, and yet I feel like I'm losing my mind and that I'm a huge failure for not just jumping ship to a more chill job the first chance I got.

Not much helpful advice to offer except I feel this thread 110%. OP your description of everything is exactly what I’m going through, except I’m two years behind as a fourth year, so kudos to you for surviving even longer. A lot of my deals also died/paused during quarantine, but even with work being slower and the ability to WFH, I still hate the job. I particularly hate being in this purgatory where even when work is a lot slower, I can’t completely check out and still feel pressure to look like I’m actively engaged with the firm, be super responsive to emails and calls, volunteer for annoying nonbillable BS, participate in every “voluntary” virtual happy hour with partners, etc.

I was told some of my deals will picking back up soon, and instead of looking forward to finally having some work to do, I feel intense anxiety at the thought of having to go through yet another awful transaction with micromanaging partners, jerk clients and ridiculous fire drills. I had several conversations with my spouse this week about how unhappy I’ve been with my choice of going to law school and working in big law. I told my spouse that the more deals I go through doesn’t make the next deal any better because I’m more “used” to it, it just wears me down more and more. like you, I’ve had good reviews and have a good reputation with my group, but the better I am at this job, the more miserable it is.

My lack of motivation has gotten to the point where I’m even entertaining leaving with no backup plan so I can finally just have some space away from anything law-related and focus on what makes me happy. Yet I also feel guilty for thinking that way during this pandemic while others are unemployed, plus don’t want to let down my spouse financially. like you said in-house hiring seems to have slowed down considerably, so I feel discouraged from looking elsewhere. I do know that I definitely don’t want to leave just to go to another firm bc the crappiness of M&A seems to be universal. I know ultimately a lot of this is all in my head, and I always have the choice of leaving, but it’s easier said than done... hope us big law burnouts find something fulfilling (or at least something more chill/less soul crushing) eventually.

OP here - I feel you dude and I agree that unless you get extremely lucky it seems like M&A is universally just shitty. My firm is a V100 and a major step down from the first place I worked in terms of prestige, but I work almost just as much, just with nicer bosses and more from home, but the work is still the same, still hanging over my head when I go hiking for a day, or when I want to visit friends or family for a weekend. So many occasions I've had to cut short and force my wife to drive home with me because "I just have so much shit to do". I honestly don't understand why some of my partners continue to do this to themselves, I guess they just got in too deep with the private schools and the fancy house and now are stuck.

I agree it never gets better, even when I'm primarily just drafting purchase agreements and talking to clients, its still extremely tedious and boring work. I guess if it was 45-50 hours a week I'd try to live with it, but even then it wouldn't be fulfilling at all. My wife has pretty much told me she's been waiting for years for me to quit my job, but at the end of the day, what if I quit, can't figure out what I want, and then we're just treading water financially for years without any real upside? Hopefully the in-house market bears fruit soon. I know people say in-house can be boring but I'd take boring to have my life back and then figure out next steps from there, cause law firm life is just not amenable to that kind of mental flexibility.

[attorney589753]

Thanks for the advice. I think my problem is that there really is no reduced pace that I find alright anymore. Being a senior on 4 active deals there is only so much I can ignore without straight up failing to do my job. Clients email me directly, partners leave me hanging on things because they have in the past and they think I'll get it done, but the difference is that now I just want to ignore it too.

I've looked into smaller firms, but how do you do M&A/transactional work on a typical 9-6 schedule? It just seems like you need to be extremely lucky to find a place like that, especially if they bring you in as a senior associate. I have dialed it back and a lot of it I'm finding is just not caring anymore. Don't spend 10 hours reviewing an agreement, spend 4, say you had some random comments and just fire shit away. But don't get me wrong, this isn't exactly enjoyable either. Knowing how much work goes in to being a good attorney, it doesn't really feel good to know you're half-assing it everyday.

I'm trying to figure out next steps, got lots of different moving parts (in-house, canadian firms, researching going back to school), but that leads to issues also since its hard to be focused when my one thing is just wanting out. Anyways, thanks for the advice, I guess if I make it through summer with these active deals I just say no to every other thing that comes along and keep hustling for other stuff.

Dang dude, reading this made me really feel for you. Honestly it sounds like one of the reasons the job is so tough is that you do take a lot of pride in your work; kind of funny thing about a biglaw firm (like you said in an earlier post too) is being "good" and having self-respect sometimes just means partners treat you shittier...because they can....

A few pieces of advice from my POV (around similar experience level): 1. I think you need to take a real vacation ASAP, maybe in July or August, even if you can't go much due to COVID, just logoff for a week or two. Tell people you are unreachable. If you are good at your job, they aren't going to fire you for taking a vacation (and sounds like you wouldn't care much if they did). 2. I do think that transactional practices do inherently have a worse "anything can pop up" to them more so than other practices, but still, there is some variety out there, and switching firms again or trying to do smaller deals, or in a different market, I think there could be less pressure, or maybe just better partners, than what you have right now. 3. I agree with the conventional wisdom that you shouldn't quit. I think it makes sense you are feeling down, but we are in the midst of a pandemic and it sounds like you have a lot of job safety that others would be envious of, and you are doing right by your family (maybe try to reframe and remind yourself of the positives) -- that's not good advice for the next 5 years, but I think maybe the right frame for the next 5 months or so; 4.

Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

Can you try to make it through these current deals, and then turn down the next one? Seems like the problem isn't the amount of work you are doing per deal (which, as you say, you can't really change without doing a shitty job), but the number of deals. If you can make another month or two, dial back a bit, and then land somewhere a few months after that (hopefully COVID recedes and we have a vaccine in 6-8 months), that might be about as good an ending as one could hope for.

I'd be careful and not jump too fast -- the advantage of being in corp (speaking as an envious litigator) is that you at least have well-paid awesome potential landing spots.

[apparentlymargarita]

I know this may take up time you don’t have, but I’d recommend the podcast Lessons From a Quitter (made by an ex-lawyer), and the book Designing Your Life. Both helped me quit as a fifth year. The book in particular is useful for considering what parts of practice you may actually enjoy more than others that you can bring into any type of future career, law or non-law. The Happy Lawyer Project is another podcast.

[Yugihoe]

I know this may take up time you don’t have, but I’d recommend the podcast Lessons From a Quitter (made by an ex-lawyer), and the book Designing Your Life. Both helped me quit as a fifth year. The book in particular is useful for considering what parts of practice you may actually enjoy more than others that you can bring into any type of future career, law or non-law. The Happy Lawyer Project is another podcast.

What did you end up quitting to do if you don't mind me asking? And what's you experience with the switch been like so far?

[apparentlymargarita]

I know this may take up time you don’t have, but I’d recommend the podcast Lessons From a Quitter (made by an ex-lawyer), and the book Designing Your Life. Both helped me quit as a fifth year. The book in particular is useful for considering what parts of practice you may actually enjoy more than others that you can bring into any type of future career, law or non-law. The Happy Lawyer Project is another podcast.

What did you end up quitting to do if you don't mind me asking? And what's you experience with the switch been like so far?

Happy to answer more if you DM me, but I quit transactional work with no actual plan except to spend time on some personal projects and travel (of course this was early 2019 so a different time, and I’d paid off my loans and saved enough). I ended up being approached with an opportunity to work part time at a friend’s small firm after several months and ended up doing that. I decided that for now I value my freedom more than biglaw money, and so far it’s been working out well. But I also don’t know what I would have done if the pandemic had been happening then.

[Anonymous User]

Im a third year and I feel this, the increasing responsibilities that are coming as I leave junior status just seem more and more terrifying. As a junior, I could go on a vacay and be readily fungible and not bothered. Even now in my group, I'm finding that my vacations are getting eaten into. I honestly don't know how anyone makes it to senior.

[Anonymous User]

Im a third year and I feel this, the increasing responsibilities that are coming as I leave junior status just seem more and more terrifying. As a junior, I could go on a vacay and be readily fungible and not bothered. Even now in my group, I'm finding that my vacations are getting eaten into. I honestly don't know how anyone makes it to senior.

4th year (I guess I'll be a 5th year whenever the new class starts) and this is so true. Every year it gets exponentially worse. Especially if you're in a practice/firm that is "leanly staffed" - even when you work with "reasonable" people, you're still billing a couple hours a day during vacation. The only thing that changes is you get an apologetic email asking where things are and some sort of leeway on timing.

I miss being a junior. It was so much easier when I didn't have the responsibility of moving things forward on matters.

[Anonymous User]

Im a third year and I feel this, the increasing responsibilities that are coming as I leave junior status just seem more and more terrifying. As a junior, I could go on a vacay and be readily fungible and not bothered. Even now in my group, I'm finding that my vacations are getting eaten into. I honestly don't know how anyone makes it to senior.

4th year (I guess I'll be a 5th year whenever the new class starts) and this is so true. Every year it gets exponentially worse. Especially if you're in a practice/firm that is "leanly staffed" - even when you work with "reasonable" people, you're still billing a couple hours a day during vacation. The only thing that changes is you get an apologetic email asking where things are and some sort of leeway on timing.

I miss being a junior. It was so much easier when I didn't have the responsibility of moving things forward on matters.

Im in exactly that kind of firm also. In my practice group, there's a notable lack of mids and we've lost all but one senior, so its hard to distinguish. I really feel like if I am going to make it maybe 2 or more years I need a bigger group, at least, to be able to try and get some breather (as it is, I'm one of the only mids, and feel like I'm on basically everything).

[hdr]

It's no accident that the biggest pay increases occur between years 3-6.

[galactiis]

I wouldn't quit if I had no job lined up. Tons of people coast until they get the talk. You could likely make it 6 more months before you get let go (they might even give you 3 months severance to look around). This is a substantial amount of money as a senior associate.

[Anonymous User]

Im a third year and I feel this, the increasing responsibilities that are coming as I leave junior status just seem more and more terrifying. As a junior, I could go on a vacay and be readily fungible and not bothered. Even now in my group, I'm finding that my vacations are getting eaten into. I honestly don't know how anyone makes it to senior.

OP Here - Lets put it this way. I have to lie to my bosses about where I'm going on vacation, or go somewhere with no WIFI. Last summer I took a vacation to go to a good friends' wedding and still billed 47 hours that week because a deal I was on was trying to sign the week I came back, so I still had to double check junior work, have calls with clients, etc. After that experience, I decided that I'll only take vacations with no WIFI, or just tell white lies about internet availability if needed.

Also, you need to really go out and look for coverage for yourself and communicate it with partners. This doesn't mean asking the Junior on a deal to cover the more senior parts, it means finding a senior that is willing to do actual coverage for you when on vacation so the partner isn't breathing down your neck because "junior can't turn this". Even then, you'll still have to check your emails if deals are signing/closing.

Being a junior sucked in many ways but being a senior doesn't really make it better, just better resume lines and better interview responses in that you actually run deals. Some people thrive when they make the jump though, I will say. I can see how if you like the job it gets a lot better since you are drafting the main agreements, you're on strategy calls, you leave the busy work to juniors to handle. But you are also at the whim of the client and partner and you have no protection anymore.

[TheoO]

Im a third year and I feel this, the increasing responsibilities that are coming as I leave junior status just seem more and more terrifying. As a junior, I could go on a vacay and be readily fungible and not bothered. Even now in my group, I'm finding that my vacations are getting eaten into. I honestly don't know how anyone makes it to senior.

OP Here - Lets put it this way. I have to lie to my bosses about where I'm going on vacation, or go somewhere with no WIFI. Last summer I took a vacation to go to a good friends' wedding and still billed 47 hours that week because a deal I was on was trying to sign the week I came back, so I still had to double check junior work, have calls with clients, etc. After that experience, I decided that I'll only take vacations with no WIFI, or just tell white lies about internet availability if needed.

Also, you need to really go out and look for coverage for yourself and communicate it with partners. This doesn't mean asking the Junior on a deal to cover the more senior parts, it means finding a senior that is willing to do actual coverage for you when on vacation so the partner isn't breathing down your neck because "junior can't turn this". Even then, you'll still have to check your emails if deals are signing/closing.

Being a junior sucked in many ways but being a senior doesn't really make it better, just better resume lines and better interview responses in that you actually run deals. Some people thrive when they make the jump though, I will say. I can see how if you like the job it gets a lot better since you are drafting the main agreements, you're on strategy calls, you leave the busy work to juniors to handle. But you are also at the whim of the client and partner and you have no protection anymore.

Myabe you had this in your initial post: but is your group large? Mine is very small so mids are basically acting on more senior level since we have such short staffing (one senior who is on everything and continually tells me that they are not happy). I feel like in a larger group, being able to find some coverage would be a lot easier. I feel like that may be the only way to survive since no way am I staying long enough to take over my senior's position should they dip. But I think your post is especially informative: this job just seems to be endless stress and hell particularly for people who dont feel fulfilled by it or don't have the interest/desire/will to try and achieve the highest peaks. And I'm definitely in that category.

[Anonymous User]

The vacations thing is what gets me. I have seen too many seniors and midlevels blowing up their own vacations with stupid projects that popped up. As a junior I have had dumb work come in while traveling, too.

If I get to the point where I’m really coasting (and I don’t think I’m too far away from it now), I’ll send reminders to my teams that I’ll be on vacation with a line that I will not be accessing email, WiFi, phone calls, etc. Then I will leave my work phone and laptop behind. (This could be trickier for people who have one phone.) Surely someone has done this before - put up an out of office saying to contact your secretary and give them a list of associate contacts by matter who’re covering for you. We all deserve 9 days truly “off.” I hate the advice that I got as a first year to take vacations in places without Wi-Fi. Why should where I choose to travel affect whether my vacation is ruined by work?

[replevin123]

Haven't started biglaw yet, but I don't understand the wifi point either. *IF* you are trying to coast and have OK savings, why not just take a true vacation (ignore all work stuff regardless of wifi access) with sufficient notice? The worst that can happen is you get fired, which if you are coasting isn't that bad (also factor in the probability of being immediately fired for taking a true vacation once a year is probably not anywhere close to 100%). If you do solid work but are unavailable for a 5 day block at some point, seems like you should be reasonably safe and if you're fired over that then just move somewhere else. Is this naive (given assumption of decent savings)? If you aren't gunning for partner, then what's the point of blowing up important life moment vacations or even just maintaining sanity?

[edit-punctuation]

[Anonymous User]

The vacations thing is what gets me. I have seen too many seniors and midlevels blowing up their own vacations with stupid projects that popped up. As a junior I have had dumb work come in while traveling, too.

If I get to the point where I’m really coasting (and I don’t think I’m too far away from it now), I’ll send reminders to my teams that I’ll be on vacation with a line that I will not be accessing email, WiFi, phone calls, etc. Then I will leave my work phone and laptop behind. (This could be trickier for people who have one phone.) Surely someone has done this before - put up an out of office saying to contact your secretary and give them a list of associate contacts by matter who’re covering for you. We all deserve 9 days truly “off.” I hate the advice that I got as a first year to take vacations in places without Wi-Fi. Why should where I choose to travel affect whether my vacation is ruined by work?

Midlevel here. I am actually told by my partner that I cant put up an away email since we need to available to the client "24/7", so we, I guess, have to pretend we never have vacay and are always working. I haven't went to HR given the times, but in addition, I have had to schedule a call with a client during my vacay even when the client said they could have the call on the following week when I was back, and when it was on something that was not substantive for the client (they requested a summary of the main deal points on something that had closed--such as various timelines). I know this may be unique to my situation though (and was planning an out until Covid hit).

It's unfathomable to me not to bring my laptop with me. Even when I've communicated my vacation and have adequate coverage. During every vacay I went on, as soon as work time started in NYC, I would continually check emails over the day (and it created some notable friction with my SO since I often seemed so distracted).

[beepboopbeep]

Does your outlook not have an option for an away message that shows within the org but not outside of it?

[TheoO]

Haven't started biglaw yet, but I don't understand the wifi point either. *IF* you are trying to coast and have OK savings, why not just take a true vacation (ignore all work stuff regardless of wifi access) with sufficient notice? The worst that can happen is you get fired, which if you are coasting isn't that bad (also factor in the probability of being immediately fired for taking a true vacation once a year is probably not anywhere close to 100%). If you do solid work but are unavailable for a 5 day block at some point, seems like you should be reasonably safe and if you're fired over that then just move somewhere else. Is this naive (given assumption of decent savings)? If you aren't gunning for partner, then what's the point of blowing up important life moment vacations or even just maintaining sanity?

[edit-punctuation]

When I made the decision to quit my last firm. I took a 2.5 week vacation trekking in the Himalayas, where I had absolutely no WIFI or data access for almost the entire time (and kept my laptop back in the city, so I didnt have it with me while hiking). But I had another firm lined up that I planned a later start date. But once you know you're going, and have proper plans, I think check the fuck out and enjoy yourself. I feel like it's a brief moment of respite in an otherwise exhausting biglaw experience.

[Anonymous User]

Does your outlook not have an option for an away message that shows within the org but not outside of it?

We do. And I thought that I had that on that way. I don't recall if I maybe did it for both outside and internal (may have done it by accident), but this was back in October of last year, so it feels like a lifetime ago and can't recall. Safe to say, I've been the only one in my group who had a substantive vacation and most don't feel comfortable sending having automatic away replies.

[Anonymous User]

Just to provide a counter-example, at my firm (V20) I've had no trouble taking two-week vacations without work interruption. You just need to be diligent about lining up coverage. In my (corporate) practice, we line up a associates of similar seniority to cover each matter we're working on and just give the partner a heads up a week or two in advance. Usually the covering associate will start sitting in on calls shortly before the vacation begins so they're up to speed and the client knows to include them on emails and meetings. Then on vacation the only work I might do is forwarding emails to whomever is covering, and maybe providing a bit of context if necessary. We coordinate coverage informally amongst associates, so you have to be willing to help out others if you expect the same in return. (I've always been quick to say yes to providing coverage so that I have a long list of people who owe me one.) It helps that I work in a specialized area but with about a dozen or so other associates with relatively fungible skills. It takes a bit of work to clear the deck for a vacation (and obviously this means it's generally not worth it to extricate yourself for something like a long weekend, so we tend to take long vacations) but in my experience it's totally possible to get a real vacation.

[objctnyrhnr]

M&A sounds brutal.

In lit, there are definitely unforeseen scrambles that can arise from something the opposition or the court does. Those types of totally unforeseen things (or maybe more specifically where you know something is coming but not when) usually only occur a few times a year.

But generally tight deadlines stem from automatic deadline rules. And then crunch time happens when a couple/few cases are cycling together in this respect. Or it happens during trial or something.

But oftentimes you can move the court to get an extension on a response deadline if you’re on vacation. And if you have a good relationship with the opposition you can get assent and court pretty much always says yes.

I mean don’t get me wrong I’ll almost always work some hours while on vacation...but it doesn’t seem nearly as bad as what is described here.

[Anonymous User]

Perhaps this is a difference of perspective as well as experience. I am the anon junior above who posted about midlevels/seniors getting vacations blown up. I know of multiple people who got sucked into billing 10 hour days while on vacation just because opposing counsel decided to make that week especially hellish. (Litigation) I swore I’d never do that, and fortunately I’ve yet to be in a position where I’d have to really push back on it.

But also, putting those extreme examples aside, I find it totally distasteful to expect to work even a couple of hours a day while on vacation, to be checking and replying to emails, to have your work email on your phone weighing you down mentally. My European friends are baffled by the American approach to time off. We work our asses off in biglaw, and that’s what we signed up for. There is a huge mental benefit to taking even just one week a year where you can mentally release all of those concerns. That benefit, to me, is ruined by the idea of staying plugged in by email and monitoring my cases while I’m in Greece or Thailand or wherever. And I really hope that my colleagues who more readily do that sort of thing aren’t as bothered by it as I am. But I worry that they are and have simply resigned themselves to one more really shitty part of this job.

[Excellent117]

I have billed a single-digit number of hours total across five years of vacations while in big law. Just set firm boundaries early in your career, be proactive about getting coverage, and be willing to return the favor for your colleagues. The firm will be fine for 10-14 days without an associate. You shouldn't be afraid to completely unplug during your time off.

[Anonymous User]

Haven't started biglaw yet, but I don't understand the wifi point either. *IF* you are trying to coast and have OK savings, why not just take a true vacation (ignore all work stuff regardless of wifi access) with sufficient notice? The worst that can happen is you get fired, which if you are coasting isn't that bad (also factor in the probability of being immediately fired for taking a true vacation once a year is probably not anywhere close to 100%). If you do solid work but are unavailable for a 5 day block at some point, seems like you should be reasonably safe and if you're fired over that then just move somewhere else. Is this naive (given assumption of decent savings)? If you aren't gunning for partner, then what's the point of blowing up important life moment vacations or even just maintaining sanity?

[edit-punctuation]

OP Here - You make a lot of assumptions in this post. I've taken plenty of real vacations and for the first 4 years of my career I never worked on vacation. At the end of the day, if I'm a senior associate on a deal, clients won't find it acceptable that the guy that has been doing all the work for them on a massive M&A deal is completely unreachable if you are the guy they constantly work with. When I was at a "more prestigious" firm, it was actually much easier to take vacations and partners made sure you were covered completely, but the rest of the year was so brutal that my two week vacations didn't feel like much of a reset. Think it comes down to personality honestly. I would go on two week trips when I worked at a V10 and by day 10 I would start getting massive anxiety about returning to work and starting the grind all over again. My current job I like the people way more, but I'm much more senior, much more "irreplaceable", and clients are generally doing M&A deals only a few times a year at most, which means each deal is more important to them and they really don't want hiccups. It's also not easy to just hop into a deal that is two weeks from signing and trying to be the "new senior" especially if the partners are more checked out/older and expect you to just run it and come to them for help.

[Anonymous User]

The vacations thing is what gets me. I have seen too many seniors and midlevels blowing up their own vacations with stupid projects that popped up. As a junior I have had dumb work come in while traveling, too.

If I get to the point where I’m really coasting (and I don’t think I’m too far away from it now), I’ll send reminders to my teams that I’ll be on vacation with a line that I will not be accessing email, WiFi, phone calls, etc. Then I will leave my work phone and laptop behind. (This could be trickier for people who have one phone.) Surely someone has done this before - put up an out of office saying to contact your secretary and give them a list of associate contacts by matter who’re covering for you. We all deserve 9 days truly “off.” I hate the advice that I got as a first year to take vacations in places without Wi-Fi. Why should where I choose to travel affect whether my vacation is ruined by work?

OP Here - I agree and I'm lucky that my favorite trips are those where I just go to the woods and pretend I'm a mountain person for a week or two, so I use it as a way to keep vacation costs down and get out and do stuff that I actually enjoy (like camping and hiking).