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Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:06 am
by nealric
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:30 pm
JusticeSquee wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:40 pm
ConfusedNYer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:28 pm
As is being discussed above. Texas is really the only low cost of living market with a significant number of firms that pay 190k without any compression. People might be able to cite some exceptions in other cities. But I do not think any other market in a low cost area is really going to have more than 1 or 2 firms without compression.
Chicago and Dallas have a similar COL, no? I honestly think Houston is more expensive than either of those cities (maybe the lack of state income tax balances things out though). Dallas is probably the ideal outcome. Fun city, low COL, cheap real estate.
Houston and Dallas are both significantly cheaper than Chicago. Both Houston and Dallas have all sorts of sub-500k within 30 minutes of downtown, and sub-1M large houses within 20 minutes. Nothing like that exists in Chicago. Having lived in both Dallas and Houston, they're very close to the same COL. Everyone in Dallas thinks Houston sucks, and everyone in Houston thinks Dallas sucks. But they both have a plethora of market firms. I had offers from firms in both, and chose Houston. I have friends that had offers from both and chose Dallas. While the cities are laid out very differently, they offer very similar things to do.
Downtown Chicago is definitely better than downtown Dallas or Houston, but the Texas cities have a better bang for your buck imo.
Not as familiar with Chicago, but I do agree that Houston/Dallas would be a much better market for buying. I live in a 3,500sq ft house on a 1/2 acre lot 15 min from downtown Houston (maybe 25 if traffic is unusually bad)- doubt much like that exists in Chicago at any price.
I suspect that you can also rent a much nicer apartment for $2,000 a month if you are fresh out of school and aren't settling down yet. In Houston, that would get you into some of the nicest buildings near downtown, or one of the larger apartments in a nice building within 15 minutes of downtown.
Downside is of course sprawl. There are somewhat walkable areas of Houston, but public transit is practically non-existent. My old house was 7 miles from the office. Taking the bus would have taken TWO HOURS. Literally could have walked there in that amount of time.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 am
by The Lsat Airbender
Another huge delta between Chicago and Dallas/Houston, which was mentioned upthread but then forgotten, is state income tax, which doesn't directly affect CoL but has big implications for someone making a biglaw salary now that SALT is gone.
For a first-year making $190k you're paying about $9,000 more in Illinois than in Texas. That's like 6-7% of your take-home pay. Even at the same CoL (which, like nealric, I doubt), Texas is a lot cheaper.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:59 am
by ChickenSalad
The Lsat Airbender wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 am
Another huge delta between Chicago and Dallas/Houston, which was mentioned upthread but then forgotten, is state income tax, which doesn't directly affect CoL but has big implications for someone making a biglaw salary now that SALT is gone.
For a first-year making $190k you're paying about $9,000 more in Illinois than in Texas. That's like 6-7% of your take-home pay. Even at the same CoL (which, like nealric, I doubt), Texas is a lot cheaper.
It’s also worth noting that, according to this link, Chicago has more biglaw jobs than Houston and Dallas combined:
https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blo ... count.html
Plus a market like Chicago, DC, etc isn’t quite as ties-centric.
If you have offers from both markets, Texas is cheaper than Illinois and that’s definitely something to consider. If you’re looking, sending apps randomly to Dallas because of the cost of living doesn’t make much sense imo
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:52 pm
by kovdak02
Agreed that randomly firing off apps to Texas firms is probably not going to be successful, but if you’re a no ties person - a K-JD who spent your whole life in, like, Montana before you went to a T-14 - and your goal is to take home as much money as possible, there are things you can do from the start of 1L through OCI to max out your Texas chances. Join your law school’s Texas club (I know some T-14s have these), find any 1L summer job in Dallas or Houston and network while you’re there, reach out to people at Texas firms who went to your law school, etc.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am
by 2013
While the COL and biglaw salary in TX would be amazing, you’d have to live in TX.
Austin is nice, but I wouldn’t want to live there. Same goes for Dallas and Houston.
If I were married and had kids, maybe I’d consider it because the bang for the buck. But as a single person who hates to drive, living in any of those cities would be a nightmare.
I’ve met people who went to UT, tried to work in Houston/Dallas, and ended up going to LA/SF/Chi because they just didn’t like the lifestyle.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:06 am
by Anonymous User
2013 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am
While the COL and biglaw salary in TX would be amazing, you’d have to live in TX.
Austin is nice, but I wouldn’t want to live there. Same goes for Dallas and Houston.
If I were married and had kids, maybe I’d consider it because the bang for the buck. But as a single person who hates to drive, living in any of those cities would be a nightmare.
I’ve met people who went to UT, tried to work in Houston/Dallas, and ended up going to LA/SF/Chi because they just didn’t like the lifestyle.
If you hate to drive, Texas might not be for you.
Though, you can live in uptown Dallas or downtown Houston and never drive and/or leave the area. Plenty of people do. You've got NBA in both. NHL in uptown Dallas. MLB in downtown Houston. 8-10 Broadway shows per year in both (though, Dallas shows aren't all downtown). Plenty of bars, restaurants, and parks. You probably do have to take rail transit out of both if you didn't have a car and wanted to do non-grocery shopping.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:25 am
by ksm6969
2013 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am
While the COL and biglaw salary in TX would be amazing, you’d have to live in TX.
Austin is nice, but I wouldn’t want to live there. Same goes for Dallas and Houston.
If I were married and had kids, maybe I’d consider it because the bang for the buck. But as a single person who hates to drive, living in any of those cities would be a nightmare.
I’ve met people who went to UT, tried to work in Houston/Dallas, and ended up going to LA/SF/Chi because they just didn’t like the lifestyle.
Of course, there’s also lots of people who tried to work in NY/SF and end up in Texas because they don’t like the lifestyle. Also, have you ever been single in Dallas? It’s a pretty fun place for a single, well off guy (andHouston is not bad, either). I’d put it way ahead of SF for single guys...
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:59 pm
by Anonymous User
A number of Wilmington, Delaware firms pay market scale with no compression, including some of the litigation boutiques. One shop, Abrams & Bayliss, pays at or above above market salary and bonus compensation at all levels.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:19 pm
by Anonymous User
malibustacy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:08 pm
MarkmanPapers wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:36 pm
Philly with Morgan Lewis and Dechert (and DLA but they do microscopic levels of entry level hiring) is another option, but every other firm in the market is below market.
Not anymore with MLB with the salary cuts
What salary cuts? News to this MLB mid-level...
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:33 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:19 pm
malibustacy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:08 pm
MarkmanPapers wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:36 pm
Philly with Morgan Lewis and Dechert (and DLA but they do microscopic levels of entry level hiring) is another option, but every other firm in the market is below market.
Not anymore with MLB with the salary cuts
What salary cuts? News to this MLB mid-level...
Ya... news to me too (also MLB associate). No paycuts.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:28 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:59 pm
A number of Wilmington, Delaware firms pay market scale with no compression, including some of the litigation boutiques. One shop, Abrams & Bayliss, pays at or above above market salary and bonus compensation at all levels.
TBF, you also work above market hours at A&B and there is incredibly small prospect of advancement.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:53 pm
by cisscum
Isn't houston and dallas biglaw struggling right now? I'm interested lateralling but can't find openings in my practice area
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:11 pm
by eastcoast_iub
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:59 pm
A number of Wilmington, Delaware firms pay market scale with no compression, including some of the litigation boutiques. One shop, Abrams & Bayliss, pays at or above above market salary and bonus compensation at all levels.
Wilmington firms may start at 160 but annual raises and bonuses are pathetic. Also the work is very narrow and the experience does not translate well into national biglaw.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:32 pm
by Anonymous User
eastcoast_iub wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:59 pm
A number of Wilmington, Delaware firms pay market scale with no compression, including some of the litigation boutiques. One shop, Abrams & Bayliss, pays at or above above market salary and bonus compensation at all levels.
Wilmington firms may start at 160 but annual raises and bonuses are pathetic. Also the work is very narrow and the experience does not translate well into national biglaw.
Pretty sure all the firms in Wilmington start at 175, but then the satellite offices of the national biglaw firms are all on the 190 scale. Most of those firms are going to focus heavily on Delaware law, but I've seen quite a few people move to big firms in some major markets after a few years/a lot of in house opportunities. I would say though that best bet for a more traditional "biglaw" experience with probably the easiest way to move around would be going to Skadden in Wilmington.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:58 pm
by Anonymous User
2013 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am
While the COL and biglaw salary in TX would be amazing, you’d have to live in TX.
Austin is nice, but I wouldn’t want to live there. Same goes for Dallas and Houston.
If I were married and had kids, maybe I’d consider it because the bang for the buck. But as a single person who hates to drive, living in any of those cities would be a nightmare.
I’ve met people who went to UT, tried to work in Houston/Dallas, and ended up going to LA/SF/Chi because they just didn’t like the lifestyle.
As an associate at near-market paying firms in Austin and now Dallas, I will say that Austin and Dallas/Houston are very different living experiences. Living in Austin is far more appealing for most law school grads. That's why it's incredibly difficult to stay in Austin from UT or other schools (too few openings coupled with too many law students wanting to land in Austin). Dallas and Houston simply have 3x-4x times as many openings. The problem is that you need to live in Dallas or Houston. Austin has a big city neighborhood feel across large swaths, while Dallas and Houston are (with few exceptions) barren, concrete wastelands, where you need a car for nearly everything.
I started at 165k in Austin, got a brand new sub-400k 2/2 condo w/ backyard (20-25 minutes to office with public transit) in a very walkable neighborhood where no car was needed.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:14 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:58 pm
2013 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am
While the COL and biglaw salary in TX would be amazing, you’d have to live in TX.
Austin is nice, but I wouldn’t want to live there. Same goes for Dallas and Houston.
If I were married and had kids, maybe I’d consider it because the bang for the buck. But as a single person who hates to drive, living in any of those cities would be a nightmare.
I’ve met people who went to UT, tried to work in Houston/Dallas, and ended up going to LA/SF/Chi because they just didn’t like the lifestyle.
As an associate at near-market paying firms in Austin and now Dallas, I will say that Austin and Dallas/Houston are very different living experiences. Living in Austin is far more appealing for most law school grads. That's why it's incredibly difficult to stay in Austin from UT or other schools (too few openings coupled with too many law students wanting to land in Austin). Dallas and Houston simply have 3x-4x times as many openings. The problem is that you need to live in Dallas or Houston. Austin has a big city neighborhood feel across large swaths, while Dallas and Houston are (with few exceptions) barren, concrete wastelands, where you need a car for nearly everything.
I started at 165k in Austin, got a brand new sub-400k 2/2 condo w/ backyard (20-25 minutes to office with public transit) in a very walkable neighborhood where no car was needed.
Can't speak for Dallas, but I wouldn't call Houston a "barren, concrete wasteland." I feel like the people who say that have only driven from Bush or Hobby to downtown and haven't explored much at all. FWIW, I've lived in Houston without a car and it was fine. It's annoying to uber to appointments and such, but definitely no worse than taking a subway all the time. There are multiple luxury apartment buildings, most of which are right on the light rail, within walking distance of all the downtown law firms. A super nice 2-br in one of those is less than a crappy studio in NYC.
There are also plenty of areas in the Heights, Museum District, Midtown, and Montrose that are walkable if you can stand a 5 to 15 minute drive to work. You can get a brand new 3 br, 4 bath "townhouse" (detached house with a small yard) in the Heights or Garden Oaks for 400k or less, be in walking distance of bars and restaurants and parks, and have a 10-15 minute commute. The Heights especially is exploding with young professionals who appreciate walkability, and Houston's lack of zoning makes for pretty cool neighborhoods where you have coffee shops or plant nurseries in the middle of a mostly residential block. I've seen a huge uptick in development in the past five years. My friends in other cities who are paying more than my mortgage to be cooped up in 500 sq ft apartments have been miserable this year. I've had some seriously talk to me about moving to Texas after seeing the difference in lifestyle.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:46 pm
by Faustian89
There is very little, if any, arbitrage in the way of living in Dallas or Houston vs. NYC on Cravath scale barring ties. Austin isn’t even THAT much less expensive than Manhattan anymore, reason being that it is at least something of a decent city. The quantitative differences price in the qualitative differences pretty well.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:52 pm
by AJordan
Faustian89 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:46 pm
There is very little, if any, arbitrage in the way of living in Dallas or Houston vs. NYC on Cravath scale barring ties. Austin isn’t even THAT much less expensive than Manhattan anymore, reason being that it is at least something of a decent city. The quantitative differences price in the qualitative differences pretty well.
Agreed. Whatever you do, stay out of Texas. Nothing to see here.
But for real, just do your research. Not everyone is cut out for NYC/DC and not everyone is cut out for Texas. Personally I find Austin to be unbearable for precisely the reasons that someone might compare it to "a decent city." There's horrid traffic, snooty people, and every social activity is crowded with patchouli-smelling hippies and $10 drinks along with a never-ending supply of bachelorette parties driving up local rents. I don't even particularly care too much for Dallas because it's too provincial. What many people consider the worst of the bunch, Houston, holds immense charm for me. The last decade or so has been a bit of a boon for Texas, admittedly. I'm interested to see what happens when Kirkland/Latham face downward market pressure and realize that having a few hundred associates in Texas might not be the best idea for their business model.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:07 am
by lawlo
Faustian89 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:46 pm
There is very little, if any, arbitrage in the way of living in Dallas or Houston vs. NYC on Cravath scale barring ties. Austin isn’t even THAT much less expensive than Manhattan anymore, reason being that it is at least something of a decent city. The quantitative differences price in the qualitative differences pretty well.
Really dumb take considering the previous discussion. Don't you have some 1L classes to be studying for?
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:41 am
by Idontwanttomakeaname
AJordan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:52 pm
I'm interested to see what happens when Kirkland/Latham face downward market pressure and realize that having a few hundred associates in Texas might not be the best idea for their business model.
Can you elaborate on this point?
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:34 pm
by Anonymous User
Faustian89 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:46 pm
There is very little, if any, arbitrage in the way of living in Dallas or Houston vs. NYC on Cravath scale barring ties. Austin isn’t even THAT much less expensive than Manhattan anymore, reason being that it is at least something of a decent city. The quantitative differences price in the qualitative differences pretty well.
A brand new 1,100 sqft 2/2 apartment/condo in Midtown would run you about 1.2m. The equivalent in Austin version of Midtown is about 450k, plus you get a backyard and garage.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:37 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:34 pm
Faustian89 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:46 pm
There is very little, if any, arbitrage in the way of living in Dallas or Houston vs. NYC on Cravath scale barring ties. Austin isn’t even THAT much less expensive than Manhattan anymore, reason being that it is at least something of a decent city. The quantitative differences price in the qualitative differences pretty well.
A brand new 1,100 sqft 2/2 apartment/condo in Midtown would run you about 1.2m. The equivalent in Austin's version of Midtown is about 450k, plus you get a backyard and garage.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:28 pm
by UnfrozenCaveman
Can't wait for another COL discussion!
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:59 pm
by Faustian89
lawlo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:07 am
Faustian89 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:46 pm
There is very little, if any, arbitrage in the way of living in Dallas or Houston vs. NYC on Cravath scale barring ties. Austin isn’t even THAT much less expensive than Manhattan anymore, reason being that it is at least something of a decent city. The quantitative differences price in the qualitative differences pretty well.
Really dumb take considering the previous discussion. Don't you have some 1L classes to be studying for?
It’s not a really dumb take precisely because of the previous, and frequent, comparisons used.
Re: Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:17 pm
by ksm6969
The weirdest parts of the quality of life stuff to me is when people say things like, "If you live in houston, you will have to have a car!!!" as though having a car is some awful thing. Having a car in houston is not like having a car in new york. parking is generally easy, and your house will have parking. Its 100x more enjoyable to get into a car, go to the supermarket, buy a bunch of stuff, load up the car, go home, park in your garage, and take the bags to your kitchen than it is to schlep to a bodega and overpay for everything and then lug a bunch of bags back in the subway. And if you think you miss some character of a bodega, there are tons of local supermarkets (like la michoacana) that sell all kinds of interesting stuff, and even the big chains (Fiesta Mart, H-Mart, even HEB) have exotic stuff. So yes, you will probably need a car in Houston, but its actually enjoyable to have a car (provided you dont chose to live an hour away from where you work).