Prediction: When will NYC lawyers return to the office? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I absolutely love WFH and have absolutely zero desire to go back to the office at all. And I really like my colleagues. Being home is just a huge game changer re: quality of life.

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise just pushed the "official" required return to office date to July 1. I say "official" because apparently unofficially its fall/winter or even later. Brace yourselves. We are in it for the long haul.

Why would the unofficial date be later?

Different anon here. July 1 is not the official return date. The announcement was more like, "So that you can plan for the future, we promise that no one will be required to return to the office before July 1 at the earliest."

They also announced that they would provide a minimum of one month advance notice ahead of any mandatory return to office date, and that mandating a return to the office wouldn't happen until everyone has had a "reasonable opportunity" to be vaccinated.

[purplegoldtornado]

Debevoise just pushed the "official" required return to office date to July 1. I say "official" because apparently unofficially its fall/winter or even later. Brace yourselves. We are in it for the long haul.

Why would the unofficial date be later?

Different anon here. July 1 is not the official return date. The announcement was more like, "So that you can plan for the future, we promise that no one will be required to return to the office before July 1 at the earliest."

They also announced that they would provide a minimum of one month advance notice ahead of any mandatory return to office date, and that mandating a return to the office wouldn't happen until everyone has had a "reasonable opportunity" to be vaccinated.

That makes more sense. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

re: July 1, my NYC firm is officially "several months away" from being fully operational which I assume means later summer at the earliest. And I intend to keep WFH even beyond that if at all possible

[Anonymous User]

re: July 1, my NYC firm is officially "several months away" from being fully operational which I assume means later summer at the earliest. And I intend to keep WFH even beyond that if at all possible

My nyc firm has said labor day.

Have you talked to your employer yet about post covid WFH?

[Anonymous User]

More flexible WFH hours has to be the standard even after all this is over....right? Please...?

[Anonymous User]

I plan to continue WFH at least three days a week until someone bitches at me. There is no way I can go back to being in the office five days a week after this. That was a miserable existence.

[jotarokujo]

More flexible WFH hours has to be the standard even after all this is over....right? Please...?

I'd be very surprised if that weren't the case

[Anonymous User]

WFH flexibility should be similar to bonus announcements where not matching market is shamed

[blair.waldorf]

WFH flexibility should be similar to bonus announcements where not matching market is shamed

Yes. Five days a week in the office was a truly miserable existence and served no purpose.

[Anonymous User]

WFH flexibility should be similar to bonus announcements where not matching market is shamed

Yes. Five days a week in the office was a truly miserable existence and served no purpose.

Counterpoint is that this job is pretty horrible when you take away some of the perks that you get in the office, including actually seeing your colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise just pushed the "official" required return to office date to July 1. I say "official" because apparently unofficially its fall/winter or even later. Brace yourselves. We are in it for the long haul.

Why would the unofficial date be later?

Different anon here. July 1 is not the official return date. The announcement was more like, "So that you can plan for the future, we promise that no one will be required to return to the office before July 1 at the earliest."

DPW has told us similar, but with April 1 rather than July 1 as the no earlier than date.

I doubt we’ll be back any sooner than our NYC peers will, but I do think there’s some skepticism from management w/r/t WFH.

[Anonymous User]

Anything less than 2 WFH days a week equals automatic lateral

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

WFH flexibility should be similar to bonus announcements where not matching market is shamed

Yes. Five days a week in the office was a truly miserable existence and served no purpose.

Counterpoint is that this job is pretty horrible when you take away some of the perks that you get in the office, including actually seeing your colleagues.

My colleagues are a net negative in this job. I'm able to talk to (and in normal times, see) all the ones I care to interact with outside of work.

[Anonymous User]

What do we reasonably expect at this point? Offices start to fill up by around Labor Day? My guess is firms encourage people to come into the office by then but allow 100% WFH until January 1, 2022.

[Anonymous User]

Have any associates on the associates committee at your firms had any discussions with partners about the WFH split in post-vaccination life? I feel like TLS/ATL should be very transparent about this benefit and use what other firms are offering to push our own firms.

[jotarokujo]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

April 2022 seems reasonable. i'm not sure if i would risk keeping quiet though

[polareagle]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

[Anonymous User]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

[purplegoldtornado]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

[polareagle]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

The point, though, is that whether you have to pay tax where your job is located or not (I'm not a tax lawyer/accountant; I don't know), you definitely have to pay tax where you're living, and you need to tell your employer in order for that to happen.

[cisscum]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

The point, though, is that whether you have to pay tax where your job is located or not (I'm not a tax lawyer/accountant; I don't know), you definitely have to pay tax where you're living, and you need to tell your employer in order for that to happen.

Depends on where you live. If you pay tax in New York you’re probably set since other states aren’t going to get any revenue from you anyways as a practical matter

[Anonymous User]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

Unfortunately NYS said last year that anyone who is remote for Covid still has to pay NYS tax. Whether or not that changes is a separate question

[purplegoldtornado]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

Unfortunately NYS said last year that anyone who is remote for Covid still has to pay NYS tax. Whether or not that changes is a separate question

Oh ok, thanks for the info. It’ll be real interesting to see if it goes before the Court. It could cost NY a ton of money (for better or for worse).