Dealing with Paycuts

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TexasBigLaw

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by TexasBigLaw » Fri May 15, 2020 12:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:09 pm
I'm at a firm that cut and plan to apply around and leave if I can find something else I like. I'm not "mad" about it, but I think the cut suggests weak financials and/or selfish partners, which means I should look for a different job.
At the risk of derailing a perfectly lovely pissing contest with the actual thread topic, this is the key takeaway IMO. For the most part, any firm cutting at this stage is doing it for one of those two reasons (or both), and neither one reflects a firm you want to be at long-term. It's time to go, if you reasonably can, and if you can't, start working your network now and laying the foundation for a move when things improve a little.

The real slap in the face is the line about "partners cutting back on their draw to absorb the majority of the financial impact" from firms where partners take their draw once annually at year end. These partners are making associates - and worse, support staff - take the unplanned financial hit in the hopes that this all evens out by January (or at least gives them 8 months to plan ahead for the pay decrease). If you're at one of these firms - GTFO.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 15, 2020 7:38 am

Yes. I think putting aside systemic problems, there is a huge mistrust that the firms have good motives. They have all acted in concert and reduced pay. 15% to 20% because that is what they think market allows. Maybe they could have done 5% to 10% and the numbers would have worked.

But the partners could make huge windfall. Profits could be higher. They only have to make associates whole if other firms do.

Also some firms have said that they may give mid year bonuses to select associates. Yet why is it discretionary. It’s the salary that I agreed to. If the firm has the financial wherewithal they should pay.

Even if it is slow. Some months are slow in normal times. This year I should be over 2k hours at docked pay.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm

Is any one looking because of pay cuts?

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 1:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.
What if you were bankruptcy and your pay was cut what would you do?

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jigiwo1898jupiter

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by jigiwo1898jupiter » Mon May 18, 2020 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.
I've had no reduction in recruiter emails.

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nealric

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by nealric » Mon May 18, 2020 2:19 pm

jigiwo1898jupiter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.
I've had no reduction in recruiter emails.
Yeah, because there's been no reduction in recruiters working. That doesn't mean they actually have jobs for you. They are always looking for resumes to shop and leads to sell. I get tons of recruiters contacting me with vague promises of really exciting opportunities, but when pressed for details about the position, they clam up- because they don't actually have a job to recruit for.

jigiwo1898jupiter

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by jigiwo1898jupiter » Mon May 18, 2020 2:23 pm

nealric wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:19 pm
jigiwo1898jupiter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.
I've had no reduction in recruiter emails.
Yeah, because there's been no reduction in recruiters working. That doesn't mean they actually have jobs for you. They are always looking for resumes to shop and leads to sell. I get tons of recruiters contacting me with vague promises of really exciting opportunities, but when pressed for details about the position, they clam up- because they don't actually have a job to recruit for.
I will adjust my post to say: "I've had no reduction in recruiter emails with specific postings, to include the 'here are 20 in your market available' emails."

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nealric

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by nealric » Mon May 18, 2020 2:27 pm

jigiwo1898jupiter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:23 pm
nealric wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:19 pm
jigiwo1898jupiter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.
I've had no reduction in recruiter emails.
Yeah, because there's been no reduction in recruiters working. That doesn't mean they actually have jobs for you. They are always looking for resumes to shop and leads to sell. I get tons of recruiters contacting me with vague promises of really exciting opportunities, but when pressed for details about the position, they clam up- because they don't actually have a job to recruit for.
I will adjust my post to say: "I've had no reduction in recruiter emails with specific postings, to include the 'here are 20 in your market available' emails."
A lot of those are likely not real or stale. My spouse is in a practice area that is less impacted by COVID, and got half a dozen recruiter calls about a position. After talking to the practice group head of the firm in question, it was clear that they were in a hiring freeze and the listing had been approved pre-COVID- nobody was getting hired (at least not in the immediate future).

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 2:31 pm

nealric wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:27 pm
jigiwo1898jupiter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:23 pm
nealric wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:19 pm
jigiwo1898jupiter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:01 pm
Is any one looking because of pay cuts?
Yes, but I don’t think firms are really looking outside of bankruptcy. I’ve applied to a handful of firms through classmates or direct, and no bites so far. I’ve been avoiding using a recruiter because I don’t think a firm would really want to pay a recruiter right now... also, relatedly, recruiters have completely stopped sending job openings.
I've had no reduction in recruiter emails.
Yeah, because there's been no reduction in recruiters working. That doesn't mean they actually have jobs for you. They are always looking for resumes to shop and leads to sell. I get tons of recruiters contacting me with vague promises of really exciting opportunities, but when pressed for details about the position, they clam up- because they don't actually have a job to recruit for.
I will adjust my post to say: "I've had no reduction in recruiter emails with specific postings, to include the 'here are 20 in your market available' emails."
A lot of those are likely not real or stale. My spouse is in a practice area that is less impacted by COVID, and got half a dozen recruiter calls about a position. After talking to the practice group head of the firm in question, it was clear that they were in a hiring freeze and the listing had been approved pre-COVID- nobody was getting hired (at least not in the immediate future).
Great, thanks. Still receiving the same volume of recruiter emails, and they still include specific postings.

Edit: accidental anon. Jigi

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Anon who said recruiting e-mails have slowed. I think I should clarify. I’m not getting any “real” recruiting e-mails. As others have mentioned, a lot of these posts are stale or appear to be fake. Or they’re the same recruiter e-mailing me over and over again. When I respond to the recruiter, they tell me about a completely different opportunity than the one they wrote about. I’m sure there are some practice areas still hiring, but I think the vast majority have slowed down/stopped.


Edit: for example, I’m in exec comp/benefits, and a lot of recruiters reach out with a new, unposted job for Comp/Benefits, but the job ends up being either L&E or ERISA Litigation.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 6:42 pm

What’s the consensus when a firm has pay cuts then you there are stealths.

jigiwo1898jupiter

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by jigiwo1898jupiter » Mon May 18, 2020 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:42 pm
What’s the consensus when a firm has pay cuts then you there are stealths.
That is does not bode well?

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2013

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by 2013 » Mon May 18, 2020 9:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:42 pm
What’s the consensus when a firm has pay cuts then you there are stealths.
Jump ship ASAP?

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 18, 2020 11:04 pm

Would be interested in hearing what practice group people are in when they talk about recruiter emails, as it's pretty much pointless otherwise. I'm a litigation 3rd year and the recruiting emails went from multiple a day, every day in February to essentially none in March, and has since rebounded to 3 or 4 a week, usually pretty specific and with white collar or restructuring specifically mentioned about half the time.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 21, 2020 9:21 am

I get like 50 a day for bankruptcy. But there are only like really 10 firms hiring and it’s the same thing being shot out over and over.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 26, 2020 8:18 am

TexasBigLaw wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:03 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:09 pm
I'm at a firm that cut and plan to apply around and leave if I can find something else I like. I'm not "mad" about it, but I think the cut suggests weak financials and/or selfish partners, which means I should look for a different job.
At the risk of derailing a perfectly lovely pissing contest with the actual thread topic, this is the key takeaway IMO. For the most part, any firm cutting at this stage is doing it for one of those two reasons (or both), and neither one reflects a firm you want to be at long-term. It's time to go, if you reasonably can, and if you can't, start working your network now and laying the foundation for a move when things improve a little.

The real slap in the face is the line about "partners cutting back on their draw to absorb the majority of the financial impact" from firms where partners take their draw once annually at year end. These partners are making associates - and worse, support staff - take the unplanned financial hit in the hopes that this all evens out by January (or at least gives them 8 months to plan ahead for the pay decrease). If you're at one of these firms - GTFO.
Any thoughts on whether the pay cuts will be permanent. I have moved around quite a bit. But stayed at my last firm for several years. I don’t want to go back to the old firm but don’t want to see as a job hopper.

My main issue is the paycut and the practice I am in, which should be super busy, is not right now.

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nealric

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by nealric » Tue May 26, 2020 9:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:18 am
TexasBigLaw wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:03 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:09 pm
I'm at a firm that cut and plan to apply around and leave if I can find something else I like. I'm not "mad" about it, but I think the cut suggests weak financials and/or selfish partners, which means I should look for a different job.
At the risk of derailing a perfectly lovely pissing contest with the actual thread topic, this is the key takeaway IMO. For the most part, any firm cutting at this stage is doing it for one of those two reasons (or both), and neither one reflects a firm you want to be at long-term. It's time to go, if you reasonably can, and if you can't, start working your network now and laying the foundation for a move when things improve a little.

The real slap in the face is the line about "partners cutting back on their draw to absorb the majority of the financial impact" from firms where partners take their draw once annually at year end. These partners are making associates - and worse, support staff - take the unplanned financial hit in the hopes that this all evens out by January (or at least gives them 8 months to plan ahead for the pay decrease). If you're at one of these firms - GTFO.
Any thoughts on whether the pay cuts will be permanent. I have moved around quite a bit. But stayed at my last firm for several years. I don’t want to go back to the old firm but don’t want to see as a job hopper.

My main issue is the paycut and the practice I am in, which should be super busy, is not right now.
You are essentially asking about the future state of the economy. Nobody can answer that.

During the great recession some firms cut and restored pay without too much delay. Some even did true up bonuses. But whether that will happen depends on the firm and the recovery.

hdr

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by hdr » Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 am

I don't think many V100 firms will permanently keep salaries 15-25% lower. But as with the last recession, a lot of lower-ranked firms will find ways to keep salaries down for midlevels and seniors by denying raises based on hours and realization (in addition to blackbox, below-market bonuses).

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:38 am

As pay cuts spread, how to associates in busier groups, like restructuring feel by working the same or more hours for lower pay and no bonus while the partners will be made whole at years end.

Things seem to be getting worse not better. Wonder if more firms will do deeper cuts.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Ultramar vistas » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:57 am

Reed Smith just upped its 15% salary cut to 20% for the rest of the year, and announced “targeted layoffs” in the London office.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:06 am

Ultramar vistas wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:57 am
Reed Smith just upped its 15% salary cut to 20% for the rest of the year, and announced “targeted layoffs” in the London office.
A lot of firms are having layoffs. The point of the pay cuts was to prevent layoffs and they still are. My firm also has further targeted reductions in pay. This is not announced.

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LSATWiz.com

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by LSATWiz.com » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:44 pm

Comparing emotions over losing a job vs. taking a COVID-19 salary cut are like comparing apples and oranges. Employees with a 20% pay-cut generally won't become depressed or question their self-worth, but they will be angry if others at their company or similarly situated companies don't have their pay cut. It's more annoyance/anger than depression.

They can't really control feeling less motivated or being upset. This is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:02 pm

LSATWiz.com wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:44 pm
Comparing emotions over losing a job vs. taking a COVID-19 salary cut are like comparing apples and oranges. Employees with a 20% pay-cut generally won't become depressed or question their self-worth, but they will be angry if others at their company or similarly situated companies don't have their pay cut. It's more annoyance/anger than depression.

They can't really control feeling less motivated or being upset. This is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg.
Yes. One annoyance is that if you are very busy and someone is slow and your pay is cut. Another annoyance is that the pay cut is much more impactful if you are in New York than say Georgia.

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Re: Dealing with Paycuts

Post by LSATWiz.com » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:02 pm
LSATWiz.com wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:44 pm
Comparing emotions over losing a job vs. taking a COVID-19 salary cut are like comparing apples and oranges. Employees with a 20% pay-cut generally won't become depressed or question their self-worth, but they will be angry if others at their company or similarly situated companies don't have their pay cut. It's more annoyance/anger than depression.

They can't really control feeling less motivated or being upset. This is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg.
Yes. One annoyance is that if you are very busy and someone is slow and your pay is cut. Another annoyance is that the pay cut is much more impactful if you are in New York than say Georgia.
My point is more that you'd likely be less annoyed if every firm had the same pay-cut. The fact some are and some aren't is what creates the sense of unfairness, and this is amplified if you left a firm that didn't implement the pay-cut for one that did. As you see in the study, the monkey is fine working for the cucumber until it sees that another monkey gets a grape for completing the same task. Upon realizing that, the monkey becomes angry and annoyed. We'd be fine working for cucumbers if every similarly situated person was working for cucumbers.

In a small way, you're going through the same emotions that inspired the equal pay movement. Now obviously this isn't comparable to sexism or racial discrimination, but there is a natural biological reaction fueling your discontentment. We're hardwired to get angry when we feel we are being compensated less than others for doing the same work. I personally don't understand the logic of doing pay-cuts in lieu of layoffs if for no reason other than the fact that people are unlikely to just forget how they felt when things go back to normal. To the extent you can ascribe a financial value to loyalty, that value is probably gone for those whose salary was cut.

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