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Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:42 pm
by Anonymous User
What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 am
by trebekismyhero
Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Idk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:30 pm
by Sackboy
+1 to Trebek. Solid tier list and absolutely correct in saying that training is largely similar. The only distinction for training is that it's probably on an accelerated timeline at the litigation boutiques compared to the biglaw firms. If you're a quick learner, that's great for you. If you're not, that's not so great.
I'd also add Eimer Stahl to the list of great Chicago lit boutiques that "don't take summers and hire clerks." ES is stacked with T13 grads with honors, and 1/3 of their lawyers have a DCt/COA clerkships (one even has a SCOTUS clerkship). When they do hire straight out of law school, it's near top of the class (3.85+), iirc.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:11 pm
by bajablast
Jenner, Winston, and Mayer used to be big law litigation power houses but they have taken a step back over the years. They typically have smaller classes and pay less than Kirkland and Sidley.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:03 am
by trebekismyhero
bajablast wrote:Jenner, Winston, and Mayer used to be big law litigation power houses but they have taken a step back over the years. They typically have smaller classes and pay less than Kirkland and Sidley.
For corporate they are definitely behind Kirkland and Sidley, but I think Jenner and Winston are still equal when it comes to lit. They are still handling major cases with huge fortune 500 clients. Also, they are all lockstep firms. Although Jenner has been hedging on salary increases lately. Kirkland obviously beats them all with bonuses.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:20 pm
by Anonymous User
Curious for the Chicago lit lawyers here: do you have an intuition on whether magna from UChicago and two good federal clerkships, though not with feeders, is enough to have a snowball’s chance in hell at Bartlit Beck? Would I need a vote of confidence from Mortara (almost certainly not going to happen)?
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:45 am
by The Lsat Airbender
Anonymous User wrote:Curious for the Chicago lit lawyers here: do you have an intuition on whether magna from UChicago and two good federal clerkships, though not with feeders, is enough to have a snowball’s chance in hell at Bartlit Beck? Would I need a vote of confidence from Mortara (almost certainly not going to happen)?
UChicago doesn't do Latin honors so that would be pretty impressive
Yeah, of course top-10% at Chicago and two federal clerkships gets you to a point where they'll at least read the rest of your resume. Law Review probably also necessary. You'd still need some kind of hook, and some luck, to actually clinch it.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:02 pm
by Anonymous User
trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 am
Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Idk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
Curious where people would rank Latham vs. KE? Are they true peers? Is one above the other? Would someone be crazy to go to Latham over KE because of KE's "reputation"...
Edit: only care about litigation
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:00 pm
by M458
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:02 pm
trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 am
Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Idk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
Curious where people would rank Latham vs. KE? Are they true peers? Is one above the other? Would someone be crazy to go to Latham over KE because of KE's "reputation"...
You would not be crazy at all to go to Latham over K&E - I'd put Latham close to on par with Sidley and Kirkland in Chicago.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:40 pm
by Zoey
Sackboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:30 pm
+1 to Trebek. Solid tier list and absolutely correct in saying that training is largely similar. The only distinction for training is that it's probably on an accelerated timeline at the litigation boutiques compared to the biglaw firms. If you're a quick learner, that's great for you. If you're not, that's not so great.
I'd also add Eimer Stahl to the list of great Chicago lit boutiques that "don't take summers and hire clerks." ES is stacked with T13 grads with honors, and 1/3 of their lawyers have a DCt/COA clerkships (one even has a SCOTUS clerkship). When they do hire straight out of law school, it's near top of the class (3.85+), iirc.
And one of Eimer Stahl’s partners killed it on jeopardy recently. Won 3 or 4 games, if I remember. Trebek should know.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:08 pm
by Anonymous User
Any thoughts on the hierarchy for corporate?
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:07 am
by Anonymous User
M458 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:02 pm
trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 am
Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Idk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
Curious where people would rank Latham vs. KE? Are they true peers? Is one above the other? Would someone be crazy to go to Latham over KE because of KE's "reputation"...
You would not be crazy at all to go to Latham over K&E - I'd put Latham close to on par with Sidley and Kirkland in Chicago.
Former Latham Chicago associate here. It's not crazy, but I wouldn't do it. Litigation takes a back seat to corporate at Latham. My understanding is that's not necessarily true at Kirkland (or Winston/Jenner which you could probably go to if you can get an offer at Latham).
For corporate work, there really isn't much/any difference between the work being done at Latham and Kirkland in Chicago. But, Kirkland will pay you more.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:08 pm
Any thoughts on the hierarchy for corporate?
My ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland and Sidley
TIER 2 - Mayer Brown, Jenner, Winston
TIER 3 - Schiff Hardin
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:25 pm
by trebekismyhero
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:08 pm
Any thoughts on the hierarchy for corporate?
My ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland and Sidley
TIER 2 - Mayer Brown, Jenner, Winston
TIER 3 - Schiff Hardin
Personally, I think Kirkland is on a tier to itself for corporate in Chicago. Then Sidley then the next tier of Mayer and Winston. Jenner is probably below them for corporate, it is such a lit focused firm. I'd put Katten and McDermott above Jenner for corporate
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:57 pm
by Buglaw
trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 4:25 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:08 pm
Any thoughts on the hierarchy for corporate?
My ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland and Sidley
TIER 2 - Mayer Brown, Jenner, Winston
TIER 3 - Schiff Hardin
Personally, I think Kirkland is on a tier to itself for corporate in Chicago. Then Sidley then the next tier of Mayer and Winston. Jenner is probably below them for corporate, it is such a lit focused firm. I'd put Katten and McDermott above Jenner for corporate
This seems right to me.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:40 pm
by Law Sauce
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 am
My ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland, Skadden, Latham
TIER 2 - Sidley, Mayer Brown, Katten, Winston
TIER 3 - Jenner, McDermitt
TIER ? - Schiff Hardin, others
Little fuller/better list above for transactional although a few of these firms have strong niche transactional practices in certain areas.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:27 pm
by Sangamon
Corporate
1. Kirkland
**big gap**
2. Sidley/Latham
4. Skadden/Winston
**gap**
6. McDermott/Katten/Greenberg
9. Mayer Brown/Jones Day
Litigation
1.Bartlit Beck
**big gap**
2. Kirkland/Sidley/Jenner
5. Winston/Mayer Brown/Jones Day
8. Eimer Stahl/Riley Safer
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 1:27 am
by Anonymous User
Sangamon wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 11:27 pm
Corporate
1. Kirkland
**big gap**
2. Sidley/Latham
4. Skadden/Winston
**gap**
6. McDermott/Katten/Greenberg
9. Mayer Brown/Jones Day
Litigation
1.Bartlit Beck
**big gap**
2. Kirkland/Sidley/Jenner
5. Winston/Mayer Brown/Jones Day
8. Eimer Stahl/Riley Safer
I work at one of these firms and this seems right to me.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 1:29 am
by Sackboy
Agree with the list that has the *gap* notation. The previous list with T1 being Kirkland/Latham/Skadden and Sidley below is just pure flame, and the poster should be ashamed for basically copy/pasting Vault onto a Chicago list.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:11 am
by Anonymous User
Where does barack ferrazzano fit into this scheme?
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 1:38 pm
by Anonymous User
Curious about Ropes & Gray as well. I admittedly did not know they even had an office in Chi, but apparently they do, and apparently with 80+ attorneys?
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:01 am
by Buglaw
Edit
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:58 am
by Sackboy
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:11 am
Where does barack ferrazzano fit into this scheme?
BFKN is a bit weird. They're more selective than any of the traditional biglaw firms in town (yes, Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, and Skadden included), but they also don't do top of the market work in the traditionally prestigious practices (lit + M&A). They have an excellent reputation with real estate work and might be the top shop in the city. They also do a lot of middle-market bank mergers and represent a fair number of luxury/fashion brands. I'm not sure how up to date Vault is, but they supposedly have an 1850 hours target with 100 countable pro bono hours. I know compensation compresses after 3rd year, so it makes sense. They have Waco and Minneapolis offices, technically, but the vibe I get is that they have a few partners who wanted to stay with the firm but wanted to move back to those areas. Don't think they're actually trying to compete in those markets.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:05 pm
by Iowahawk
Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:58 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:11 am
Where does barack ferrazzano fit into this scheme?
BFKN is a bit weird. They're more selective than any of the traditional biglaw firms in town (yes, Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, and Skadden included), but they also don't do top of the market work in the traditionally prestigious practices (lit + M&A). They have an excellent reputation with real estate work and might be the top shop in the city. They also do a lot of middle-market bank mergers and represent a fair number of luxury/fashion brands. I'm not sure how up to date Vault is, but they supposedly have an 1850 hours target with 100 countable pro bono hours. I know compensation compresses after 3rd year, so it makes sense. They have Waco and Minneapolis offices, technically, but the vibe I get is that they have a few partners who wanted to stay with the firm but wanted to move back to those areas. Don't think they're actually trying to compete in those markets.
This thread on BFKN is helpful:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=297338
My understanding is that it's kind of very-high-end midlaw, plus an exceptional real estate practice, and pretty attractive due to its casual dress code/culture, hours, substantive work, etc. It also has extremely low leverage. And yeah at my school it was just as selective as Kirkland.
Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Iowahawk wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:05 pm
Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:58 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:11 am
Where does barack ferrazzano fit into this scheme?
BFKN is a bit weird. They're more selective than any of the traditional biglaw firms in town (yes, Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, and Skadden included), but they also don't do top of the market work in the traditionally prestigious practices (lit + M&A). They have an excellent reputation with real estate work and might be the top shop in the city. They also do a lot of middle-market bank mergers and represent a fair number of luxury/fashion brands. I'm not sure how up to date Vault is, but they supposedly have an 1850 hours target with 100 countable pro bono hours. I know compensation compresses after 3rd year, so it makes sense. They have Waco and Minneapolis offices, technically, but the vibe I get is that they have a few partners who wanted to stay with the firm but wanted to move back to those areas. Don't think they're actually trying to compete in those markets.
This thread on BFKN is helpful:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=297338
My understanding is that it's kind of very-high-end midlaw, plus an exceptional real estate practice, and pretty attractive due to its casual dress code/culture, hours, substantive work, etc. It also has extremely low leverage. And yeah at my school it was just as selective as Kirkland.
I interviewed there a few years ago. The firm, as mentioned above, is super selective. Outside of the employment group, I think every associate was from a t13, many with honors.
When I interviewed, a recruiter I worked with sent me the average pay after 3 years (not sure how they got that), but the compression wasn’t that bad. I think it was still within $10-15k in each class year.
I wouldn’t be able to rank it against a traditional firm because they do completely different work. It’s all very high end, but non-traditional work.