Chicago firm hierarchy Forum
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Chicago firm hierarchy
What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
- trebekismyhero
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Idk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
+1 to Trebek. Solid tier list and absolutely correct in saying that training is largely similar. The only distinction for training is that it's probably on an accelerated timeline at the litigation boutiques compared to the biglaw firms. If you're a quick learner, that's great for you. If you're not, that's not so great.
I'd also add Eimer Stahl to the list of great Chicago lit boutiques that "don't take summers and hire clerks." ES is stacked with T13 grads with honors, and 1/3 of their lawyers have a DCt/COA clerkships (one even has a SCOTUS clerkship). When they do hire straight out of law school, it's near top of the class (3.85+), iirc.
I'd also add Eimer Stahl to the list of great Chicago lit boutiques that "don't take summers and hire clerks." ES is stacked with T13 grads with honors, and 1/3 of their lawyers have a DCt/COA clerkships (one even has a SCOTUS clerkship). When they do hire straight out of law school, it's near top of the class (3.85+), iirc.
- bajablast
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Jenner, Winston, and Mayer used to be big law litigation power houses but they have taken a step back over the years. They typically have smaller classes and pay less than Kirkland and Sidley.
- trebekismyhero
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
For corporate they are definitely behind Kirkland and Sidley, but I think Jenner and Winston are still equal when it comes to lit. They are still handling major cases with huge fortune 500 clients. Also, they are all lockstep firms. Although Jenner has been hedging on salary increases lately. Kirkland obviously beats them all with bonuses.bajablast wrote:Jenner, Winston, and Mayer used to be big law litigation power houses but they have taken a step back over the years. They typically have smaller classes and pay less than Kirkland and Sidley.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Curious for the Chicago lit lawyers here: do you have an intuition on whether magna from UChicago and two good federal clerkships, though not with feeders, is enough to have a snowball’s chance in hell at Bartlit Beck? Would I need a vote of confidence from Mortara (almost certainly not going to happen)?
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
UChicago doesn't do Latin honors so that would be pretty impressiveAnonymous User wrote:Curious for the Chicago lit lawyers here: do you have an intuition on whether magna from UChicago and two good federal clerkships, though not with feeders, is enough to have a snowball’s chance in hell at Bartlit Beck? Would I need a vote of confidence from Mortara (almost certainly not going to happen)?
Yeah, of course top-10% at Chicago and two federal clerkships gets you to a point where they'll at least read the rest of your resume. Law Review probably also necessary. You'd still need some kind of hook, and some luck, to actually clinch it.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Curious where people would rank Latham vs. KE? Are they true peers? Is one above the other? Would someone be crazy to go to Latham over KE because of KE's "reputation"...trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 amIdk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
Edit: only care about litigation
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
You would not be crazy at all to go to Latham over K&E - I'd put Latham close to on par with Sidley and Kirkland in Chicago.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:02 pmCurious where people would rank Latham vs. KE? Are they true peers? Is one above the other? Would someone be crazy to go to Latham over KE because of KE's "reputation"...trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 amIdk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
And one of Eimer Stahl’s partners killed it on jeopardy recently. Won 3 or 4 games, if I remember. Trebek should know.Sackboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:30 pm+1 to Trebek. Solid tier list and absolutely correct in saying that training is largely similar. The only distinction for training is that it's probably on an accelerated timeline at the litigation boutiques compared to the biglaw firms. If you're a quick learner, that's great for you. If you're not, that's not so great.
I'd also add Eimer Stahl to the list of great Chicago lit boutiques that "don't take summers and hire clerks." ES is stacked with T13 grads with honors, and 1/3 of their lawyers have a DCt/COA clerkships (one even has a SCOTUS clerkship). When they do hire straight out of law school, it's near top of the class (3.85+), iirc.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Any thoughts on the hierarchy for corporate?
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Former Latham Chicago associate here. It's not crazy, but I wouldn't do it. Litigation takes a back seat to corporate at Latham. My understanding is that's not necessarily true at Kirkland (or Winston/Jenner which you could probably go to if you can get an offer at Latham).M458 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:00 pmYou would not be crazy at all to go to Latham over K&E - I'd put Latham close to on par with Sidley and Kirkland in Chicago.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:02 pmCurious where people would rank Latham vs. KE? Are they true peers? Is one above the other? Would someone be crazy to go to Latham over KE because of KE's "reputation"...trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 amIdk if there is such a thing as best training ground since they all generally train the same. I think the answer for both are the two main boutiques, Bartlitt Beck and Goldman Ismail. But those generally don't take summers and hire clerks.Anonymous User wrote:What's the current hierarchy for Chicago law firms (only litigation)? Which place is the best training ground for a new associate?
Of the big law firms, I think of it mostly in tiers.
My personal opinion for lit, tier 1 is Sidley, Winston, Kirkland, and Jenner.
Below them Mayer, McDermott, and Katten. Schiff and Riley Safer probably right below them. Although Riley Safer has some good work around white collar.
Just using Chicago based firms above. Obviously Skadden, Latham and Jones Day are up there as well.
For corporate work, there really isn't much/any difference between the work being done at Latham and Kirkland in Chicago. But, Kirkland will pay you more.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
My ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland and Sidley
TIER 2 - Mayer Brown, Jenner, Winston
TIER 3 - Schiff Hardin
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- trebekismyhero
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Personally, I think Kirkland is on a tier to itself for corporate in Chicago. Then Sidley then the next tier of Mayer and Winston. Jenner is probably below them for corporate, it is such a lit focused firm. I'd put Katten and McDermott above Jenner for corporateAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 amMy ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland and Sidley
TIER 2 - Mayer Brown, Jenner, Winston
TIER 3 - Schiff Hardin
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
This seems right to me.trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 4:25 pmPersonally, I think Kirkland is on a tier to itself for corporate in Chicago. Then Sidley then the next tier of Mayer and Winston. Jenner is probably below them for corporate, it is such a lit focused firm. I'd put Katten and McDermott above Jenner for corporateAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 amMy ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland and Sidley
TIER 2 - Mayer Brown, Jenner, Winston
TIER 3 - Schiff Hardin
- Law Sauce
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Little fuller/better list above for transactional although a few of these firms have strong niche transactional practices in certain areas.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 11:55 am
My ranking of the Chicago firms would be:
TIER 1 - Kirkland, Skadden, Latham
TIER 2 - Sidley, Mayer Brown, Katten, Winston
TIER 3 - Jenner, McDermitt
TIER ? - Schiff Hardin, others
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Corporate
1. Kirkland
**big gap**
2. Sidley/Latham
4. Skadden/Winston
**gap**
6. McDermott/Katten/Greenberg
9. Mayer Brown/Jones Day
Litigation
1.Bartlit Beck
**big gap**
2. Kirkland/Sidley/Jenner
5. Winston/Mayer Brown/Jones Day
8. Eimer Stahl/Riley Safer
1. Kirkland
**big gap**
2. Sidley/Latham
4. Skadden/Winston
**gap**
6. McDermott/Katten/Greenberg
9. Mayer Brown/Jones Day
Litigation
1.Bartlit Beck
**big gap**
2. Kirkland/Sidley/Jenner
5. Winston/Mayer Brown/Jones Day
8. Eimer Stahl/Riley Safer
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
I work at one of these firms and this seems right to me.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Agree with the list that has the *gap* notation. The previous list with T1 being Kirkland/Latham/Skadden and Sidley below is just pure flame, and the poster should be ashamed for basically copy/pasting Vault onto a Chicago list.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Where does barack ferrazzano fit into this scheme?
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
Curious about Ropes & Gray as well. I admittedly did not know they even had an office in Chi, but apparently they do, and apparently with 80+ attorneys?
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
BFKN is a bit weird. They're more selective than any of the traditional biglaw firms in town (yes, Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, and Skadden included), but they also don't do top of the market work in the traditionally prestigious practices (lit + M&A). They have an excellent reputation with real estate work and might be the top shop in the city. They also do a lot of middle-market bank mergers and represent a fair number of luxury/fashion brands. I'm not sure how up to date Vault is, but they supposedly have an 1850 hours target with 100 countable pro bono hours. I know compensation compresses after 3rd year, so it makes sense. They have Waco and Minneapolis offices, technically, but the vibe I get is that they have a few partners who wanted to stay with the firm but wanted to move back to those areas. Don't think they're actually trying to compete in those markets.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
This thread on BFKN is helpful: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=297338Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:58 amBFKN is a bit weird. They're more selective than any of the traditional biglaw firms in town (yes, Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, and Skadden included), but they also don't do top of the market work in the traditionally prestigious practices (lit + M&A). They have an excellent reputation with real estate work and might be the top shop in the city. They also do a lot of middle-market bank mergers and represent a fair number of luxury/fashion brands. I'm not sure how up to date Vault is, but they supposedly have an 1850 hours target with 100 countable pro bono hours. I know compensation compresses after 3rd year, so it makes sense. They have Waco and Minneapolis offices, technically, but the vibe I get is that they have a few partners who wanted to stay with the firm but wanted to move back to those areas. Don't think they're actually trying to compete in those markets.
My understanding is that it's kind of very-high-end midlaw, plus an exceptional real estate practice, and pretty attractive due to its casual dress code/culture, hours, substantive work, etc. It also has extremely low leverage. And yeah at my school it was just as selective as Kirkland.
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Re: Chicago firm hierarchy
I interviewed there a few years ago. The firm, as mentioned above, is super selective. Outside of the employment group, I think every associate was from a t13, many with honors.Iowahawk wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:05 pmThis thread on BFKN is helpful: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=297338Sackboy wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:58 amBFKN is a bit weird. They're more selective than any of the traditional biglaw firms in town (yes, Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, and Skadden included), but they also don't do top of the market work in the traditionally prestigious practices (lit + M&A). They have an excellent reputation with real estate work and might be the top shop in the city. They also do a lot of middle-market bank mergers and represent a fair number of luxury/fashion brands. I'm not sure how up to date Vault is, but they supposedly have an 1850 hours target with 100 countable pro bono hours. I know compensation compresses after 3rd year, so it makes sense. They have Waco and Minneapolis offices, technically, but the vibe I get is that they have a few partners who wanted to stay with the firm but wanted to move back to those areas. Don't think they're actually trying to compete in those markets.
My understanding is that it's kind of very-high-end midlaw, plus an exceptional real estate practice, and pretty attractive due to its casual dress code/culture, hours, substantive work, etc. It also has extremely low leverage. And yeah at my school it was just as selective as Kirkland.
When I interviewed, a recruiter I worked with sent me the average pay after 3 years (not sure how they got that), but the compression wasn’t that bad. I think it was still within $10-15k in each class year.
I wouldn’t be able to rank it against a traditional firm because they do completely different work. It’s all very high end, but non-traditional work.
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