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In answering the above question, can you say approximately what year you are (partner, senior associate, mid-level, and, if junior, what year specifically)? First year associates' opinions welcome, but probably not the most helpful.

2020Graduate wrote:In answering the above question, can you say approximately what year you are (partner, senior associate, mid-level, and, if junior, what year specifically)? First year associates' opinions welcome, but probably not the most helpful.

Difficult question because you aren’t really expected to know anything of substance. Most 1st years haven’t even had a professional job before either.

Those who summered with the firm are probably expected - by those who know them from their summer - to remember things from their summer and understand general professional expectations a bit more than others, but it’s really a reset on day 1.

Honestly, the number 1 thing that first years get wrong is attitude. For the first 2 years of your career, you can be completely average in work quality but be well regarded just by having a great attitude. There are always, in every summer class, those guys who think they are already hot shit because they know a bunch of associates from law school, or get on well with the recruiters. Shut it down, no one cares. The partners aren’t your friends now because you got drinks with them a few times at happy hours. Put your head down, say yes enthusiastically to as much as you can, and people will love you.

Alternatively, there are people who try and hide because they’re afraid of working too much. Ironically, if you suffer a bit early you can set yourself up for much more autonomy than the person who doesn’t get hit with their first big diligence project until month 9 and has no midlevels looking out for them.

Try and strike a balance of confidence and deference, understand your limitations, don’t ever act as if you know it all even if you’re really sure that you do, and ask questions based on a desire to know more, not that giveaway the fact that you fell asleep during the after-lunch conference call.

I'm a class of 2010 grad. 3 years biglaw, 7 years in-house. My law school and firm peers in biglaw are now mostly jr. partners or of-counsel .

Perhaps others will have better ideas, but it's hard to single out anything specific 1st years get wrong In general, the biggest issue with 1st years is they just don't know how the game is played- conventions, processes, procedure. That takes time. First years are also dangerous because while they tend to be great at research, they don't know what they don't know. Don't be offended if you are watched like a hawk and constantly questioned. It's not because they think you are doing a bad job, but because they know you likely have some big blind spots. You don't need to be obsequious, or stay silent if you think something is wrong (senior attorneys WANT you to speak up), but you do need to defer to the judgment of senior attorneys (as long as they aren't acting unethically).

For an incoming first year, the best thing you can do is be available and as helpful as possible. Your goal is to make the lives of senior attorneys easier whenever possible- even it's something as asenine as looking up and printing a case. Learning the business and your practice area will come with time and exposure.

Midlevel, V10.

The biggest first-year problem I've seen is folks attempting to "set boundaries" too aggressively.

There's a difference between being a stray body roped in to help on a project as a stopgap (in which case it's really okay to say "I'm sorry, I'm swamped with my other matters" at some point) and being one of the junior associates "on a matter." If the latter, you do not have a lot of leeway to say "sorry, I'm busy." C'mon dude. We're all busy. The work's gotta get done by someone, so telling a midlevel "sorry, I don't have time for this" means "actually, you need to do it now." And that is not a good look. If one of "your matters" requires you to stay up late working on a big project, well, you're gonna stay up late working on that big project.

This is might seem hard to do but it isn’t, make my life easier. If you do research you better send the cases, if there’s a citation hanging don’t not correct it because you weren’t asked, ask a question when appropriate but don’t call me ten times for stuff you didn’t feel like thinking through.

This doesn’t happen often but there are several times I have equal knowledge and info in something as a junior. If you don’t even try to figure it out, you’re telling me that you don’t think you’re as smart as me or that you are a smart and are just lazy. You don’t want I me any of those things.

In the lit internal research memo context, I think first years can overdo it in trying to be too efficient at the expense of not doing a deep enough dive.

If one idea doesn’t work, see if you can suggest an alternative based on what you are seeing. Don’t just read a couple cases and call if a day; read a ton of them. Go down a couple rabbit holes. If you aren’t instructed to turn the memo around in a day, it means you can take a bit of time.

Of course, this advice is given under condition that you are not asked to only do a very high level look into an issue/concerns about billing constraints etc.

Try to start your e-mails with a summary or takeaway that a mid-level or partner can use. For instance, if I ask you a research question and your e-mail says "I looked at this issue and there's a ton of authority and here's fifteen short paragraphs, each covering one case" then that's not that helpful. What is helpful is something like: "I looked at the issue and I found three helpful cases, one in our Circuit. I suggest using that case to argue xxx. While there is contrary authority, none of it is fatal. Below are summaries of the top three cases and citations and parentheticals for other related cases."

Put simply, lawyers looking to solve a problem for a client or make an argument, so an e-mail that gives them a sense of where they should be going is a lot more helpful than a data dump.

Class of 2013, V-10, corporate.

My expectations of first years have definitely changed a I have become more senior. At this stage I have three first year tips that relate mostly to attitude (since in my experience everything but attitude can be fixed):

First, you are not "totally slammed" if you are cruising along at 160-180 hours a month. I would never call anyone a slacker for staying on a 2,000 hours pace, but I've done enough 300+ hour months over the years to know what slammed means and anything south of 200 hours doesn't begin to get there (before anyone jumps in here, I acknowledge that even 150 hour months come in different varieties, not saying you have to hit any particular number of hours per month to be underwater at a moment in time).

Second, assume that everything is equally urgent unless told otherwise, and ask before you start to prioritize one project over another. Can't count how many times a junior has given me a knee jerk "have an urgent [x] coming up on other matter so can't help you today," as if my project (which they are also on) does not have important deadlines. You should put your hand up if you are overwhelmed, but you should also let your supervisors help sort out how to manage if things are out of hand. Just telling a supervisor "no" when you are already on their project potentially puts them and/or a client in a really bad position.

Third, be available and, if you are not, find ways to make it palatable.You'll be surprised how much better "I'm tied up for a couple hours, but will jump on this later this evening" works as opposed to "I have to go pick up my dog from doggy day care" or "I'm at the opera." As a first year you are working for people who have life obligations just like you do, and who have likely been sacrificing them for much longer than you have. No one should be saying you can't take care of life, but as a first year you do not want to be the only one on a deal team who gives the impression that their personal life is more important than everyone else's.

I'm a senior associate. To me, the job of every associate is to make life easier for folks senior to you. If working with you is a chore, then even if you're amazingly brilliant, your career is going to be short. Your #1 goal as a new employee is to prove that you can be depended on, and that you're capable and willing to learn.

For me, the most important thing is not having to worry about whether something is getting done. So if it's the first time we've worked together, and I ask you do to something in the next two days, but to come check in after one day to see if you have any questions or have any initial thoughts...and then you don't check in at all, I'm going be worried about whether you're actually doing the work. If I give you something without a hard deadline, and then literally never hear from you again, then that's not great. If I'm giving out work, I don't want to spend my time following up with you to see if you did it - I would rather you come check in 5 times (I mean, within reason). Obviously once we've worked together and I can trust you more, then it's fine to be less in contact during a project.

Similarly, responsiveness is important in a first year - if you aren't responding to emails after 6:00 every day, or disappear in the middle of transactions, it's hard to trust you and want to work with you. It's all about establishing that you can be depended on - you don't have to do mind-blowing work! But I don't want to walk away from working with you thinking "I should have just done it myself."

I have another and it may get some pushback: if there’s a new billable matter, I really don’t think that a junior (or in some cases even a mid) should consider saying no. Generally speaking, I think an associate needs a lot of reputational capital to be able to say “no” and not have people’s views of you take a hit (and I hate to be the one to say this but it’s true from my observations; I’ve even made the mistake once as a mid at a new firm). Additionally, you never really know when stuff is going to dry up (exhibit A = right now), and being light as a junior is, or at least should be, way more stressful than sometimes being uncomfortably busy.

At absolute most, you should caution the partner or senior/mid associate that you have a lot on your plate because of x y and z matters but you’ll do your best and you’re looking forward to working with them. This, then, can set the foundation for you to push back by a day or two on internal deadlines if you absolutely need to do so down the line on that matter.

This all being said, if you’re of the “I’ll put in a year or two the bounce” and “I’m just doing this to get the resume stamp and the salary for a while” mentality, then feel free to take the above with a grain of salt.

objctnyrhnr wrote:I have another and it may get some pushback: if there’s a new billable matter, I really don’t think that a junior (or in some cases even a mid) should consider saying no. Generally speaking, I think an associate needs a lot of reputational capital to be able to say “no” and not have people’s views of you take a hit (and I hate to be the one to say this but it’s true from my observations; I’ve even made the mistake once as a mid at a new firm). Additionally, you never really know when stuff is going to dry up (exhibit A = right now), and being light as a junior is, or at least should be, way more stressful than sometimes being uncomfortably busy.

At absolute most, you should caution the partner or senior/mid associate that you have a lot on your plate because of x y and z matters but you’ll do your best and you’re looking forward to working with them. This, then, can set the foundation for you to push back by a day or two on internal deadlines if you absolutely need to do so down the line on that matter.

This all being said, if you’re of the “I’ll put in a year or two the bounce” and “I’m just doing this to get the resume stamp and the salary for a while” mentality, then feel free to take the above with a grain of salt.

Absolutely agree. I said no 2-3 times during my first year, and I never recovered from that. One time I was supposed to be busy, but then my deals died within the same week that I said no. My hours ended up not high that week, and I am sure the partner thought I was lazy. At the end of the day, your experience/outlook at a specific firm depends more on whether at least one partner will look out/advocate for you.
That being said, I also see associates always getting screwed by certain ppl because (1) the associates showed their willingness to work hard and unconditionally meet unreasonable deadlines and (2) the partners just don't care or think they are showing love to the associates by giving a lot of work. If you ever find yourself in that position, I would try to establish a relationship with someone else (who is more reasonable) and gradually move away from those partners. That is much easier (although still hard) than establishing a relationship with not-the-most-stellar first-year records.

Anonymous User wrote:Midlevel, V10.

The biggest first-year problem I've seen is folks attempting to "set boundaries" too aggressively.

Some of that may be precisely because you are a mid-level. Most juniors are going to preference projects by the seniority of the assigning attorney. Mid-levels don't have much political pull within the firm and aren't likely to have high quality work to assign.

Anonymous User wrote:Midlevel, V10.

The biggest first-year problem I've seen is folks attempting to "set boundaries" too aggressively.

There's a difference between being a stray body roped in to help on a project as a stopgap (in which case it's really okay to say "I'm sorry, I'm swamped with my other matters" at some point) and being one of the junior associates "on a matter." If the latter, you do not have a lot of leeway to say "sorry, I'm busy." C'mon dude. We're all busy. The work's gotta get done by someone, so telling a midlevel "sorry, I don't have time for this" means "actually, you need to do it now." And that is not a good look. If one of "your matters" requires you to stay up late working on a big project, well, you're gonna stay up late working on that big project.

(I am a midlevel)

Hey, other midlevel, chill the fuck out. You shouldn't be aggressively assigning your work out to juniors anyways. Don't get pissed when they don't do your work for you. HTH.

The Dunning-Kruger effect. Perhaps more of a 2nd or 3rd year problem, but not always.

JusticeSquee wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Midlevel, V10.

The biggest first-year problem I've seen is folks attempting to "set boundaries" too aggressively.

There's a difference between being a stray body roped in to help on a project as a stopgap (in which case it's really okay to say "I'm sorry, I'm swamped with my other matters" at some point) and being one of the junior associates "on a matter." If the latter, you do not have a lot of leeway to say "sorry, I'm busy." C'mon dude. We're all busy. The work's gotta get done by someone, so telling a midlevel "sorry, I don't have time for this" means "actually, you need to do it now." And that is not a good look. If one of "your matters" requires you to stay up late working on a big project, well, you're gonna stay up late working on that big project.

(I am a midlevel)

Hey, other midlevel, chill the fuck out. You shouldn't be aggressively assigning your work out to juniors anyways. Don't get pissed when they don't do your work for you. HTH.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. Unless the partner tells you otherwise, I think there’s a running obligation to delegate to the extent that you think it’ll make the overall bill considerably cheaper. I also think that partners appreciate when a midlevel/senior (basically whoever is senior associate on the matter) takes initiative by delegating certain facets of tasks, even when not expressly asked to do so.

objctnyrhnr wrote:

JusticeSquee wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Midlevel, V10.

The biggest first-year problem I've seen is folks attempting to "set boundaries" too aggressively.

There's a difference between being a stray body roped in to help on a project as a stopgap (in which case it's really okay to say "I'm sorry, I'm swamped with my other matters" at some point) and being one of the junior associates "on a matter." If the latter, you do not have a lot of leeway to say "sorry, I'm busy." C'mon dude. We're all busy. The work's gotta get done by someone, so telling a midlevel "sorry, I don't have time for this" means "actually, you need to do it now." And that is not a good look. If one of "your matters" requires you to stay up late working on a big project, well, you're gonna stay up late working on that big project.

(I am a midlevel)

Hey, other midlevel, chill the fuck out. You shouldn't be aggressively assigning your work out to juniors anyways. Don't get pissed when they don't do your work for you. HTH.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. Unless the partner tells you otherwise, I think there’s a running obligation to delegate to the extent that you think it’ll make the overall bill considerably cheaper. I also think that partners appreciate when a midlevel/senior (basically whoever is senior associate on the matter) takes initiative by delegating certain facets of tasks, even when not expressly asked to do so.

Yeah, I also don't get the aggressive response there. I'm more senior and one thing I try to drill into midlevels is the need to delegate as much as possible. Billing concerns aside (which I care less about), they can't handle things appropriate for their level of seniority if they are spending too much time on things that a junior should be doing (and hopefully learning from). Additionally, at least for me, when you're on a matter you're on the team. There's no "your work" vs. "my work". There is just "client work", and it is everyone's job to get it done as well as possible.

objctnyrhnr wrote:I have another and it may get some pushback: if there’s a new billable matter, I really don’t think that a junior (or in some cases even a mid) should consider saying no. Generally speaking, I think an associate needs a lot of reputational capital to be able to say “no” and not have people’s views of you take a hit (and I hate to be the one to say this but it’s true from my observations; I’ve even made the mistake once as a mid at a new firm). Additionally, you never really know when stuff is going to dry up (exhibit A = right now), and being light as a junior is, or at least should be, way more stressful than sometimes being uncomfortably busy.

At absolute most, you should caution the partner or senior/mid associate that you have a lot on your plate because of x y and z matters but you’ll do your best and you’re looking forward to working with them. This, then, can set the foundation for you to push back by a day or two on internal deadlines if you absolutely need to do so down the line on that matter.

This all being said, if you’re of the “I’ll put in a year or two the bounce” and “I’m just doing this to get the resume stamp and the salary for a while” mentality, then feel free to take the above with a grain of salt.

Really strongly disagree with this. I say no to matters all the time. I did as a first year, I continue to as a mid-level. Don’t say no when you’re slow obviously, but if you’re on pace just feel it out and say no when you’re too busy. Assuming a blanket “can’t say no” policy is a wonderful way to burn out. If a first year tells me no I just assume they’re really busy and move on with life - who cares. No wonder this can be a tough job with attitudes like this.

This thread has been incredibly assuring. Nothing stands out to me as unreasonable, and, in no particular order, everything seems logical:

• 1. Have a good attitude;

• 2. Generally say "yes," but give a heads up if limited capacity and be judicious with "no;"

• 3. Don't be irresponsible by not following up when directed or in a reasonable time if no directions;

• 4. Use the "here's what you asked for, here's a summary of what I found, then details" approach, with support attached;

• 5. Don't be deluded in thinking this is summer part 2, and instead be prepared to work long hours. It wouldn't be biglaw if they weren't;

• 6. Yet be mindful of thoughtfully setting boundaries or transitioning to another matter(s) if a person is being unusually and unreasonably demanding for a significant period of time as opposed to say a week or even months, depending on the context;

• 7. Identify ways to make the lives of those I work with easier;

• 8. Avoid overestimating my ability, be receptive to feedback concerning blind-spots, and understand being watched closely =/(necessarily)= not being trusted;

I believe I had a successful summer because I did a lot of the above, but my biggest fear is what if I come in and I'm not as informed about the substantive law as expected. I have work experience, including paralegal work, but biglaw is different and it sounds like that's okay if I approach it with the above in mind. Thanks, everyone. Will continue to read other advice, if any.

Anonymous User wrote:

objctnyrhnr wrote:I have another and it may get some pushback: if there’s a new billable matter, I really don’t think that a junior (or in some cases even a mid) should consider saying no. Generally speaking, I think an associate needs a lot of reputational capital to be able to say “no” and not have people’s views of you take a hit (and I hate to be the one to say this but it’s true from my observations; I’ve even made the mistake once as a mid at a new firm). Additionally, you never really know when stuff is going to dry up (exhibit A = right now), and being light as a junior is, or at least should be, way more stressful than sometimes being uncomfortably busy.

At absolute most, you should caution the partner or senior/mid associate that you have a lot on your plate because of x y and z matters but you’ll do your best and you’re looking forward to working with them. This, then, can set the foundation for you to push back by a day or two on internal deadlines if you absolutely need to do so down the line on that matter.

This all being said, if you’re of the “I’ll put in a year or two the bounce” and “I’m just doing this to get the resume stamp and the salary for a while” mentality, then feel free to take the above with a grain of salt.

Really strongly disagree with this. I say no to matters all the time. I did as a first year, I continue to as a mid-level. Don’t say no when you’re slow obviously, but if you’re on pace just feel it out and say no when you’re too busy. Assuming a blanket “can’t say no” policy is a wonderful way to burn out. If a first year tells me no I just assume they’re really busy and move on with life - who cares. No wonder this can be a tough job with attitudes like this.

I strongly second this disagreement, in litigation at least. One of my fellow juniors has been taking on everything because she is uncomfortable saying no. She has since put up four or five straight months of 250+ hours hours apiece and her responsiveness and work quality is slipping. Meanwhile, I turned down multiple matters and turned to the partners for whom I work regularly to cover me, and I think I actually gained capital with them (people like to help “their” people and I indicated that I wanted to keep doing lots of work for them) and my hours are much more manageable. It’s quite possible that I will get better reviews than my colleague working 25-30% more hours than I am because of how we have handled things when senior associates come at us with new matter pitches.

I don’t think you can say no when you’re slow, but you absolutely should *tactfully* turn down work as appropriate. The key is knowing when it’s appropriate. I totally reject the idea that juniors can’t say no.

man

I'm a first year around 6 months in

after my first 270+ hour month...I honestly felt like I was playing with fire a lot of the time. I'm afraid to be that busy again. Not necessarily because I'm lazy, but because I'm scared I will fuck something up. I talked to people about it and the general advice was that you need to learn how to say no. people may hold a no against you, but if you fuck up they will hate your guts and that bridge is then probably burned beyond repair.

I was getting way too close to blowing deadlines because I was stretched too thin during that month. I really don't know how ppl do that for long-term or months at a time. Maybe I suck at my job in comparison or maybe you just get used to it. I felt like it was borderline malpractice unless you are a superhero.

maybe in diff practices it's more structured, but in corp it felt like 2-3 deals all going crazy at the same time, so it's not even like you can really predict things or try and work out a cohesive schedule to avoid overlap issues.

Anonymous User wrote: I strongly second this disagreement, in litigation at least. One of my fellow juniors has been taking on everything because she is uncomfortable saying no. She has since put up four or five straight months of 250+ hours hours apiece and her responsiveness and work quality is slipping. Meanwhile, I turned down multiple matters and turned to the partners for whom I work regularly to cover me, and I think I actually gained capital with them (people like to help “their” people and I indicated that I wanted to keep doing lots of work for them) and my hours are much more manageable. It’s quite possible that I will get better reviews than my colleague working 25-30% more hours than I am because of how we have handled things when senior associates come at us with new matter pitches.

I don’t think you can say no when you’re slow, but you absolutely should *tactfully* turn down work as appropriate. The key is knowing when it’s appropriate. I totally reject the idea that juniors can’t say no.

Dumb question from an incoming first year: if I get asked to work on a new matter while I'm slammed, but I know another junior in my group is slow, is there any harm with connecting my slow peer with the senior/partner? (obviously talk to the junior first, not just throw her name out) Seems like an obvious win/win but I'm not sure if that's a faux pas for some reason.

Anonymous User wrote:man

I'm a first year around 6 months in

after my first 270+ hour month...I honestly felt like I was playing with fire a lot of the time. I'm afraid to be that busy again. Not necessarily because I'm lazy, but because I'm scared I will fuck something up. I talked to people about it and the general advice was that you need to learn how to say no. people may hold a no against you, but if you fuck up they will hate your guts and that bridge is then probably burned beyond repair.

I was getting way too close to blowing deadlines because I was stretched too thin during that month. I really don't know how ppl do that for long-term or months at a time. Maybe I suck at my job in comparison or maybe you just get used to it. I felt like it was borderline malpractice unless you are a superhero.

maybe in diff practices it's more structured, but in corp it felt like 2-3 deals all going crazy at the same time, so it's not even like you can really predict things or try and work out a cohesive schedule to avoid overlap issues.

270+ is definitely in upper bounds of what people do. I've done a few 300+ and know people who claim to have done 350+, but nobody, or least a vast majority of people can handle that long term. Definitely not expected to do that regularly, but those kind of months do happen. I'd consider anything over 200 a busy month and the more you get away from that, quality of work (especially responsiveness) starts to slip. Absolutely right that its better to potential have some mid-level annoyed you said no than to have everyone you work with annoyed because you take forever to do anything.

Definitely ok for juniors to say no, especially for new matters, but just be as diplomatic about it. If its a new matter, you can ask to check with your deal team first. Often they will tell you no for you. If a new workstream on an existing matter, you can always say something like I'm jammed on x right now, but happy to turn to this tomorrow (or later date). Usually people will just say ok and find next junior who isn't jammed.

AdieuCali wrote: Dumb question from an incoming first year: if I get asked to work on a new matter while I'm slammed, but I know another junior in my group is slow, is there any harm with connecting my slow peer with the senior/partner? (obviously talk to the junior first, not just throw her name out) Seems like an obvious win/win but I'm not sure if that's a faux pas for some reason.

Not a dumb question, but you should not do this as a first year. (1) It is not your job to keep your peers busy, so doing this would not be the norm. (2) The partner's second-choice associate may not be the same as the person you think isn't busy. Maybe your peer is slow precisely because no one wants to work with them. (3)
the other person may feel like you are passing work off onto them, which is not a good feeling. (4) If you are busy, the partner may pull strings to free you up. Staffing a matter is the partner's job, not yours.

Pneumonia wrote:

Thanks for the reply - that makes sense.

Whether or not it is okay to say no is dependent on how your firm staffs matters. At my first firm, it was truly free market and impossible to say yes to everyone that called. Like actually not physically possible to be on that many deals. The firm I am at now has a more structured process with staffing coordinators and you don't get a call unless it appears you have the time. Obviously a way worse look to say no in the second circumstance (subject to exceptions of course).

Going back to the general topic of the thread, I think the most important trait for a first year beyond responsiveness and attitude is judgment. You're not expected to know much substantively but you are expected to know when you should run a doc or email by the mid level before sending it out (almost always a first), when to be available, etc. Thing like that.