S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC) Forum

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Which New York offer should I accept?

Sullivan & Cromwell
15
33%
Debevoise
20
43%
Cleary
11
24%
 
Total votes: 46

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S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Thanks for the input everyone!
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:12 pm

Given your objectives of government, your interest in white collar, commercial lit, and dabbling in international arb, and your cultural preference for a more pleasant (perhaps polite) atmosphere, Debevoise seems like the best option to balance your goals. Strong placement into USAO and a top white collar and international arb practice, as well as a solid overall lit practice, along with a polite culture.

S&C doesn't seem to do much international arb and was reduced to tier 2 on Benchmark Litigation for White Collar, if I recall correctly, although it probably has a slightly stronger commercial lit practice than Debevoise. Also places well into gov, but seems to have a bit of a harsher/less pleasant culture from what I have heard, along with very hard hours, even in the NYC context.

Cleary is solid for White Collar and places well into gov, but seems to have a considerably weaker commercial lit practice than the other two and doesn't do much international arb out of its New York office (that practice is mostly centered in its Paris office). Seems like a mostly polite culture though.

Given these factors, Deb seems like the firm that comes closest to meeting all your objectives. All solid firms though, congrats on the offers.

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DoveBodyWash

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Re: S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC)

Post by DoveBodyWash » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Given your objectives of government, your interest in white collar, commercial lit, and dabbling in international arb, and your cultural preference for a more pleasant (perhaps polite) atmosphere, Debevoise seems like the best option to balance your goals. Strong placement into USAO and a top white collar and international arb practice, as well as a solid overall lit practice, along with a polite culture.

S&C doesn't seem to do much international arb and was reduced to tier 2 on Benchmark Litigation for White Collar, if I recall correctly, although it probably has a slightly stronger commercial lit practice than Debevoise. Also places well into gov, but seems to have a bit of a harsher/less pleasant culture from what I have heard, along with very hard hours, even in the NYC context.

Cleary is solid for White Collar and places well into gov, but seems to have a considerably weaker commercial lit practice than the other two and doesn't do much international arb out of its New York office (that practice is mostly centered in its Paris office). Seems like a mostly polite culture though.

Given these factors, Deb seems like the firm that comes closest to meeting all your objectives. All solid firms though, congrats on the offers.
Agree, Debevoise. International arb is much stronger than the other two, white collar is similar between Cleary/Deb.

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Re: S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC)

Post by notinbiglaw » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:41 pm

Difference isn’t that big for your goals but int arb probably puts deb over the top just slightly.

Slightly enough I might pick one of the other two due to location or just convenient access to gyms I want to go to.

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Re: S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:02 pm

(Posting anonymously because I work in a New York litigation department.) These are all great choices. You should go for second looks, if you haven't already, to get a better feel for all three and get to know more people.

For commercial litigation, S&C is by far the strongest of this group. Take a look at the Chambers & Partners rankings and descriptions for confirmation and the firms' websites to see their recent cases. S&C has a much wider practice (at last right now).

All three have strong white collar practices. (Though all three do place into SDNY/EDNY, you should realize that your odds of becoming an AUSA at those two offices is low from any firm.)

Debevoise has the strongest arbitration practice, but Clearly is known to have expertise representing sovereign states (think Argentina as well as some more surprising countries). At all three firms---including Debevoise---arbitration is a comparatively small practice. Although I don't have first hand experience (and it would be good if people from Debevoise would chime in), I've heard from former Debevoise associates that the arbitration partners there are very difficult.

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Re: S&C v. Cleary v. Debevoise (all NYC)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:Debevoise has the strongest arbitration practice, but Clearly is known to have expertise representing sovereign states (think Argentina as well as some more surprising countries). At all three firms---including Debevoise---arbitration is a comparatively small practice. Although I don't have first hand experience (and it would be good if people from Debevoise would chime in), I've heard from former Debevoise associates that the arbitration partners there are very difficult.
I did international arbitration work as a Debevoise summer associate, and although I don't work at Debevoise now, I have friends in the group. It's true that arbitration is smaller than some other Debevoise litigation practices, such as white collar. But it's also true that the Debevoise arbitration group (what they call "IDRG") is the largest of its kind in any NY biglaw office, with 8 partners and a couple of counsel who do IDRG almost exclusively. If you want to do international arbitration at Debevoise, you should have ample opportunities. I'm surprised by the comment that the partners are "very difficult". I've heard nothing about the partners being difficult in the sense of abrasive or mean—that would be very contrary to Debevoise culture. If they meant difficult in the sense of having high expectations that require long hours to fulfill, then yes, that would make more sense. The main downside to IDRG is that, on average, associates work harder than in the other Debevoise litigation subgroups. (By the way, this isn't unique to Debevoise, it's the nature of the practice across the industry. One driver is that, unlike in domestic civil litigation, there are very rarely any page limits in filings in international arbitrations. This leads to an arms race in which briefs are regularly hundreds of pages long, not to mention all the witness statements and expert reports, and makes it virtually certain that the weeks leading up to a filing will be entail very long hours for associates.) With that notable caveat, however, my impression is that the culture of the group and associate-partner relations are generally quite positive.

Returning to the OP's broader question, I think the advice so far in this thread is good, and I would particularly endorse the comments in the first reply. Debevoise seems like the best choice for you, but Cleary would also be good, provided you are willing to compromise on the international arbitration interest. It is true that Cleary regularly represents sovereigns before US courts and also true that their arbitration work is concentrated in Paris. Culturally, there are a lot of similarities between the two firms (both have lock-step partner compensation, which facilitates a collaborative atmosphere), and they tend to appeal to a similar set of people. (I had a Cleary summer offer, and I liked the firm, but I went to Debevoise for the arbitration work.) S&C, on the other hand, is reputed to have much less "nice" culture than Debevoise and Cleary. If you are considering S&C seriously, make sure to do a second look and dig into whether it would be the right cultural fit.

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