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Choosing between Covington DC and WLRK. Liked the people at both equally. Interested in getting a mix of white-collar/enforcement work and civil litigation (no strong preference for underlying substantive matter, whether it be securities/M&A/corporate governance/IP/products liability etc.). Goal would be AUSA (#1), DOJ (#2), SEC (#3) or some other bigfed agency in that order. Slight preference for DC, although I'd be happy in either city (currently can't see myself in NY for more than 10 or so years, however). Would I be crazy to turn down WLRK for Covington? The comp., prestige, and exit opps of WLRK seem very appealing, and I also like the relatively small size of the firm. On the other hand, it seems like there's little to no pro bono at WLRK, whereas Covington seemingly has a very strong pro bono culture that would allow me to get courtroom experience early on. Lastly, Covington is a more traditional feeder for my desired exit options, although I think a lot of that may be self-selection. FWIW, if it were any NY (big) firm except WLRK I would go with Covington. Is there a clear choice here?

Anonymous User wrote:Would I be crazy to turn down WLRK for Covington?

No. I know people who made similar choices. WLRK just isn't for everyone.

Wachtell will be an amazing boost to your resume for the rest of your career.

Yea All Right wrote:Wachtell will be an amazing boost to your resume for the rest of your career.

And for OP’s desired exit options, so will Covington.

Anonymous User wrote:Choosing between Covington DC and WLRK. Liked the people at both equally. Interested in getting a mix of white-collar/enforcement work and civil litigation (no strong preference for underlying substantive matter, whether it be securities/M&A/corporate governance/IP/products liability etc.). Goal would be AUSA (#1), DOJ (#2), SEC (#3) or some other bigfed agency in that order. Slight preference for DC, although I'd be happy in either city (currently can't see myself in NY for more than 10 or so years, however). Would I be crazy to turn down WLRK for Covington? The comp., prestige, and exit opps of WLRK seem very appealing, and I also like the relatively small size of the firm. On the other hand, it seems like there's little to no pro bono at WLRK, whereas Covington seemingly has a very strong pro bono culture that would allow me to get courtroom experience early on. Lastly, Covington is a more traditional feeder for my desired exit options, although I think a lot of that may be self-selection. FWIW, if it were any NY (big) firm except WLRK I would go with Covington. Is there a clear choice here?

There’s plenty of pro bono at Wachtell. In fact you can do pro bono criminal defense cases as a CJA attorney supervised by one of wlrk’s former AUSAs. Many lit associates litigate actual criminal cases in SDNY from inception to finish which gives them a significant experience boost for AUSA.

You can also do appellate pro bono/housing pro bono/etc but the CJA cases would probably be the most helpful for you.

The only reason not to go to wlrk is that you don’t want to work as hard - DC culture is different and require fewer hours. Otherwise, given your post, Wachtell is as close to a no brainer as there can be.

OP here. In that case, I feel like hours aren't a good enough reason to pick Covington right? I'd imagine they'd only be marginally better; from what I've heard, DC biglaw is basically the same hours as NY with less facetime, and WLRK is only marginally more work than NY biglaw (like an hour or so a day for lit). Am I way off here?

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. In that case, I feel like hours aren't a good enough reason to pick Covington right? I'd imagine they'd only be marginally better; from what I've heard, DC biglaw is basically the same hours as NY with less facetime, and WLRK is only marginally more work than NY biglaw (like an hour or so a day for lit). Am I way off here?

You are way off.

All the NY V10ish firms will work you harder (it must be stressed *on average*, there are outliers either way) than the big DC firms, and Wachtell is on another level even compared to the others.

I don’t think the exit options for your goals will be *that* different, though maybe slightly better from Wachtell.

This is really a question of whether you’d like to work a lot more for *a lot* more money.

Elston Gunn wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. In that case, I feel like hours aren't a good enough reason to pick Covington right? I'd imagine they'd only be marginally better; from what I've heard, DC biglaw is basically the same hours as NY with less facetime, and WLRK is only marginally more work than NY biglaw (like an hour or so a day for lit). Am I way off here?

You are way off.

All the NY V10ish firms will work you harder (it must be stressed *on average*, there are outliers either way) than the big DC firms, and Wachtell is on another level even compared to the others.

I don’t think the exit options for your goals will be *that* different, though maybe slightly better from Wachtell.

This is really a question of whether you’d like to work a lot more for *a lot* more money.

For those of you in biglaw: does the tradeoff seem worth it? I have a huge debt load FWIW (gonna come out with like 320k), am a KJD, and basically no obligations other than an LDR. Also, am I wrong to think I can always lateral to Covington or a similarly situated DC firm if I can't handle the hours at WLRK?

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. In that case, I feel like hours aren't a good enough reason to pick Covington right? I'd imagine they'd only be marginally better; from what I've heard, DC biglaw is basically the same hours as NY with less facetime, and WLRK is only marginally more work than NY biglaw (like an hour or so a day for lit). Am I way off here?

No experience at either of these firms, but chiming in on the hours piece. Be careful thinking of additional hours as X number of hours per day. Sure, working one extra hour per day - over the course of a year - is no big deal. But that is not how hours tend to work in big law. It’s more about intensity of hours, giving up weekends, ability to say “no” to additional work, late nights, and all nighters.

As an example, I am on pace for like 2300 ish in a non-nyc market - which stinks - but I know for a fact my 2300 is much easier/more humane than my peers working similar (or even slightly less) hours in more intense offices (nyc) or practice groups (private equity, bk, etc).

(Others May disagree w that take)

Anonymous User wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. In that case, I feel like hours aren't a good enough reason to pick Covington right? I'd imagine they'd only be marginally better; from what I've heard, DC biglaw is basically the same hours as NY with less facetime, and WLRK is only marginally more work than NY biglaw (like an hour or so a day for lit). Am I way off here?

You are way off.

All the NY V10ish firms will work you harder (it must be stressed *on average*, there are outliers either way) than the big DC firms, and Wachtell is on another level even compared to the others.

I don’t think the exit options for your goals will be *that* different, though maybe slightly better from Wachtell.

This is really a question of whether you’d like to work a lot more for *a lot* more money.

For those of you in biglaw: does the tradeoff seem worth it? I have a huge debt load FWIW (gonna come out with like 320k), am a KJD, and basically no obligations other than an LDR. Also, am I wrong to think I can always lateral to Covington or a similarly situated DC firm if I can't handle the hours at WLRK?

It’s so personal, and so hard to say. I’m in DC biglaw, have billed right around 2000 every year, and it feels like A LOT. Part of that is I’m easily distractible, but just doing even light biglaw hours is a ton of work. I honestly don’t know if I could physically handle billing in the high 2000s/even 3000, which is not at all unheard of at these places. I clerked with someone just coming out of two years of S&C, off billing 2800 hours, who would talk to me about how close you get with an office mate when you’ve both cried at your desks in front of each other multiple times.

On the other hand, some people are fine with it, and that is a HUGE debt load. How set on the government are you? And are you willing to go the PSLF route? That would play a big role in my decision.

As for lateraling, I definitely wouldn’t assume you can lateral to Covington DC whenever you want, especially as litigation gets weaker, but yeah I think it’s pretty safe to say you would more than land on your feet if you realized you couldn’t stomach the hours.

Anonymous User wrote:I have a huge debt load FWIW (gonna come out with like 320k), am a KJD

Congrats on your offers but this is among the most terrifying statements I've ever read.

Revelator 12 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I have a huge debt load FWIW (gonna come out with like 320k), am a KJD

Congrats on your offers but this is among the most terrifying statements I've ever read.

Thanks for the helpful comment

agreed this is deeply personal. I personally don't think anything is worth billing above 2400 a year, much less 2800-3000, but I also don't have anywhere near the level of debt you do or have anywhere near the qualifications to get wlrk. I haven't done the math, but I think even with market + 100% base bonus, you are probably going to take at least 2 years to pay off. Think hard about whether 2+ years of true misery is worth it.

Some people really don't mind the hours. The fact that you're asking these questions suggests to me that you'll care.

v10 associate here - the debt stack is a big factor, and as far as that goes, it kind of matters how quickly you'd like to be rid of it.

If it were me, I'd say YOLO and get debt free right here, right now and do everything I could to pare that down. You can do that in 2 years on Wachtell $$$.

On the other hand, i can tell you that 2300/2400 hours is pretty much the threshold for what's workable for having a normal life outside of work (work free holidays, minimal work vacations, and generally light weekends (<6-8 billables)). If you're efficient, you can make 2300 work and still have a generally nice year. 2700+ will feel like you are working all the time.

On the whole, my vote is wlrk - a) $320k is a ton of debt and b) cov does great work but wlrk isn't an "everyday" kind of lawfirm, it's brought in for the highest stakes - you're going to see very substantive work early on (you'll be in the room for board meetings of top tier banks, f500 companies, etc).

With that debt load, WLRK is a no-brainer. There’s a decent chance you’ll be miserable in big law regardless, once you realize that you’ll either (1) be paying most of your take-home to student loans each month or (2) destined to remain in biglaw for several years to pay off your debt, when many of your peers will be stacking cash with freedom to do what they want


WLRK will free you from your debt within 4 years, and very likely 3

No brainer

Go to WLRK with goal of staying 4 years. Expect to stay 2. Even if you leave early, you will have made a larger dent in your loans than you would have elsewhere and walk away with WLRK on your resume.

As people have said, it is a personal decision, and if you had low debt it would be a tough decision. But over $300k in debt makes going to WLRK the easy answer. Get that debt paid down. You might not be able to lateral to Covington, but if you can make it two years there, you can certainly still lateral to a good DC shop if that is what you want.

Don’t go to WLRK just to rush paying down student loans. Use REPAYE if you need to. Student loans are designed to be up to 10% tax on your income, which is substantial, but not something you should destroy your QOL over when you’re obviously not sold on WLRK work/lifestyle.

But if you can’t get over the debt and will feel pressure from the number, like many posters above, then WLRK for two years to get the balance down to a psychologically acceptable level may be better for you.

Deeply personal decision after all. I am in the camp that thinks student loans with repayment plan are some of the best debt to carry but a lot of people just can’t get over having any debt at all unless it’s on a house (even though mortgage terms are often objectively worse than student loans terms.)

Wachtell and it's not close for, as others have said, the big compensation difference.

Probably WLRK, but it is by no means easy to lateral to a elite DC firm as a litigation associate, so I wouldn't count on it, even coming from WLRK.

dont underestimate the possibility of these firms/cities to socialize you and change your actual preferences. If you want the exit options you mentioned, you need to be in DC, period. You're just not going to be meeting the kind of people you need to be meeting in NY. (nor will you have that kind of time)

As for hours - WLRK is on a different level for its demand on your life. I have friends who literally have health issues starting year 3. You might think "it's biglaw anyway, might as well go all the way and get the money" but when my WLRK friends say they're working on the weekends, they mean they are actually working from 9 AM - 2 AM. (For other V10 firms, you might still be working on the weekends, but it's nothing like that.) WLRK will CONSUME you.

Anonymous User wrote:dont underestimate the possibility of these firms/cities to socialize you and change your actual preferences. If you want the exit options you mentioned, you need to be in DC, period. You're just not going to be meeting the kind of people you need to be meeting in NY. (nor will you have that kind of time)

Uhhh this is not true. Tons of NYC biglaw litigators go into USAOs every year. Some quite well known and large USAOs in fact. They also move down to DC for main Justice, though I agree starting in DC for that might be useful.

Anonymous User wrote: As for hours - WLRK is on a different level for its demand on your life. I have friends who literally have health issues starting year 3. You might think "it's biglaw anyway, might as well go all the way and get the money" but when my WLRK friends say they're working on the weekends, they mean they are actually working from 9 AM - 2 AM. (For other V10 firms, you might still be working on the weekends, but it's nothing like that.) WLRK will CONSUME you.

Yup. Am v10 after starting at v5. Have a close friend at WLRK lit and her hours make me feel like a massive wuss. I once asked how long the upswing has been going on (usually measured in weeks), she said 5 months.