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Corporate associate @ V100. I find that days that I bill anything over 8 hours I just can't sleep at night (end up falling asleep at like 2 or 3am and sleeping in until . Anything less than 8 and I fall asleep immediately upon hitting the sack. I imagine this has something to do with sitting in front of a computer for more than a certain time that screws up my internal sleep clock. Otherwise generally enjoy my work. Anyone else have this? Find ways of dealing with this?

Could be looking at a screen. In my case, I have trouble sleeping when my brain has been engaged in work up until I need to go to sleep. I find reading a physical book helps.

UnfrozenCaveman wrote:Could be looking at a screen. In my case, I have trouble sleeping when my brain has been engaged in work up until I need to go to sleep. I find reading a physical book helps.

I get this too. If I work within 1 hour of bedtime, I'm going to be awake for hours, regardless of whether it's 11pm or 3am, which is not great for biglaw. I'm going to try the book.

Happens to me all the time. I third the book method. 100% works. Less than 20 minutes in can knock me out now.

Not in biglaw yet but this happened to me during 1L. I have found that glasses that filter the blue light from screens really help! I got mine from Felix Grey, but I think Amazon has cheaper ones.

How long are you supposed to read the book for?

The book thing totally works for me, but only if it's non-fiction (if it's good fiction I stay up till 4 am to finish it).

I use the app called f.lux to block some of the blue light on my computer at night. You can program it to start dimming at a certain time. On days where I'm really struggling, I'll take melatonin or Zzzquil.

Do you guys use Kindle or feel that the backlight defeats the purpose?

floatie wrote:I use the app called f.lux to block some of the blue light on my computer at night. You can program it to start dimming at a certain time. On days where I'm really struggling, I'll take melatonin or Zzzquil.

not all firms allow you to use f.lux. my firm locks down our computers so we can't install any software.

life pro tip: the active ingredient in ZZZquil is the same as that in benadryl. Just buy off-brand antihistamines (the drowsy kind) and save a bunch of money.

Obviously not a doctor, but long term antihistamine use can cause all sorts of complications. Really not the best train to hop on.

Will second the benefits of both anti-blue-light glasses and reading physical books before bed.

ghostoftraynor wrote:Obviously not a doctor, but long term antihistamine use can cause all sorts of complications. Really not the best train to hop on.

Will second the benefits of both anti-blue-light glasses and reading physical books before bed.

whelp, i guess i'm fucked as an allergy sufferer, then.

dabigchina wrote:

ghostoftraynor wrote:Obviously not a doctor, but long term antihistamine use can cause all sorts of complications. Really not the best train to hop on.

Will second the benefits of both anti-blue-light glasses and reading physical books before bed.

whelp, i guess i'm fucked as an allergy sufferer, then.

Some people are told to take asprin every day. Most people are advised against it because of side effects (people being advised to take it obviously because benefits outweigh the negatives).

Can't believe I really have to follow up on suggesting that people shouldn't take medicine for offbrand use on a daily basis. And its not even me telling people what to do with their lives. Its me pushing back on people suggesting to others to do so.

Keep up the good work bud.

ghostoftraynor wrote:

dabigchina wrote:

ghostoftraynor wrote:Obviously not a doctor, but long term antihistamine use can cause all sorts of complications. Really not the best train to hop on.

Will second the benefits of both anti-blue-light glasses and reading physical books before bed.

whelp, i guess i'm fucked as an allergy sufferer, then.

Some people are told to take asprin every day. Most people are advised against it because of side effects (people being advised to take it obviously because benefits outweigh the negatives).

Can't believe I really have to follow up on suggesting that people shouldn't take medicine for offbrand use on a daily basis. And its not even me telling people what to do with their lives. Its me pushing back on people suggesting to others to do so.

Keep up the good work bud.

So your primary concern is my Diphenhydramine is labelled "allergy medicine" and not ZZZquil?

30 seconds of Google would have told you how ridiculous your comment was. Keep up the good work.

Of course, you shouldn’t take ZZZquil every night, either. If your doctor tells you to take antihistamines every day for your allergies that’s different from just deciding to take them every day without allergies.

nixy wrote:Of course, you shouldn’t take ZZZquil every night, either. If your doctor tells you to take antihistamines every day for your allergies that’s different from just deciding to take them every day without allergies.

right, but i was responding to his point that off-brand usage of antihistamines is somehow materially more dangerous than taking Diphenhydramine labelled as an OTC sleep aid. i'd be happy to change my opinion if someone could point me to a study where the same chemical in a gel cap/liquid (which is what ZZZquil is) is less dangerous.

dabigchina wrote:

nixy wrote:Of course, you shouldn’t take ZZZquil every night, either. If your doctor tells you to take antihistamines every day for your allergies that’s different from just deciding to take them every day without allergies.

right, but i was responding to his point that off-brand usage of antihistamines is somehow materially more dangerous than taking Diphenhydramine labelled as an OTC sleep aid. i'd be happy to change my opinion if someone could point me to a study where the same chemical in a gel cap/liquid (which is what ZZZquil is) is less dangerous.

Oh, that’s fair.

Still in law school, but tons of people struggle with this and I did as well when I was working. Committing to good sleep hygiene is key. Try your best to get to sleep and wake up at the same time. Obviously, this can be incompatible at times with BigLaw, but try your best. I set my computer and phone to block out blue light after ~7 PM. When it got real bad for me, this was my routine for a couple weeks before my head adjusted:

1. I axed all screens about 1.5 hours before bed. Phone goes to airplane mode so I can't be tempted. Even if I thought I was tired after leaving the electronics behind, I would purposefully stay awake and do some light reading for at least an hour. If you don't want to read for fun after reading all day at work, get some bluetooth headphones with pause/play/volume controls (so you don't have to look at the screen) and queue up some podcasts on a topic you're interested in.

2. Take melatonin about 45 minutes before bed. Skip the benadryl, nyquil, and/or bedtime alcohol, it's just unhealthy and can have the opposite effect over time. Make some chamomile tea. Sip while listening to podcasts and just relax on the couch or your favorite chair. If you have work/school/other shit on the horizon that interrupts your thoughts, perhaps start writing down a checklist of things you need to do this week (on paper).

3. Take a warm (i.e. not scalding hot) shower right before bed. Keeping cool before bed helps, so when you walk into your (hopefully) AC cooled bedroom it will be easier to go to sleep.

4. If about ~20 min after head hits the pillow, you're still awake and having trouble sleeping, get up and move to the living room. Maybe make yourself another cup of tea, queue up another podcast, and unload the dishwasher or do something else mindless. Try to go to sleep again.

5. From now on your bed is used for only two things: sleeping and fucking. Don't online shop in bed. Don't watch Netflix in bed. Don't lay down and take phone calls with family/friends in bed. Don't study/work in bed. Steps 1-4 + other pre-sleep routines should be done in another room if possible, and never in your bed. Get your head used to the idea that the bed is for sleeping.

LorneMalvo wrote:Still in law school, but tons of people struggle with this and I did as well when I was working. Committing to good sleep hygiene is key. Try your best to get to sleep and wake up at the same time. Obviously, this can be incompatible at times with BigLaw, but try your best. I set my computer and phone to block out blue light after ~7 PM.

This post reminded me of the time I bombed a callback by stupidly responding to a question about whether I am a morning person or evening person by saying either was fine as long as I can find a consistent routine. Sleep hygiene is a great thought, but not going to happen in most biglaw practice groups. You sleep when you can in this business, and that is why insomnia can be so frustrating. It often isn't the difference between 8 and 6 hours of sleep (which is manageable), but between 4 and 2 hours (which can make it almost impossible to function and compound the problem the next night). Also, most sleeping aids are not an option when you only have 4 hours before you need to get back to the office.

I've also found that reading helps, but there are still nights where I just have to accept the reality that it is going to be a rough [night], [week], [month]...

Anonymous User wrote:

LorneMalvo wrote:Still in law school, but tons of people struggle with this and I did as well when I was working. Committing to good sleep hygiene is key. Try your best to get to sleep and wake up at the same time. Obviously, this can be incompatible at times with BigLaw, but try your best. I set my computer and phone to block out blue light after ~7 PM.

This post reminded me of the time I bombed a callback by stupidly responding to a question about whether I am a morning person or evening person by saying either was fine as long as I can find a consistent routine. Sleep hygiene is a great thought, but not going to happen in most biglaw practice groups. You sleep when you can in this business, and that is why insomnia can be so frustrating. It often isn't the difference between 8 and 6 hours of sleep (which is manageable), but between 4 and 2 hours (which can make it almost impossible to function and compound the problem the next night). Also, most sleeping aids are not an option when you only have 4 hours before you need to get back to the office.

I've also found that reading helps, but there are still nights where I just have to accept the reality that it is going to be a rough [night], [week], [month]...

Yeah this is a fair point and it’s definitely something I might struggle with again after graduation.

I’d recommend looking into psychiatrists with a background in CBT for insomnia. It was my next move but I got busy with summer work and my sleep problems improved after adjusting routine so I didn’t need to seek that help out, but it’s what almost every doctor will recommend and a much better long-term fix than sleep aids. Training your brain re - how to deal with stress related to sleep is the best fix and most of the big sleep centers in the US recommend it.

dabigchina wrote:

nixy wrote:Of course, you shouldn’t take ZZZquil every night, either. If your doctor tells you to take antihistamines every day for your allergies that’s different from just deciding to take them every day without allergies.

right, but i was responding to his point that off-brand usage of antihistamines is somehow materially more dangerous than taking Diphenhydramine labelled as an OTC sleep aid. i'd be happy to change my opinion if someone could point me to a study where the same chemical in a gel cap/liquid (which is what ZZZquil is) is less dangerous.

No, I was making the same point as Nixy. Taking allergy medicines daily for allergies /= taking them daily for sleep. Not familiar with ZZZquil, so wasn't aware Diphenhydramine was actually being promoted as a sleep aid. Have friends that take benadryl daily to sleep and also tell them that is a bad idea and much different than if they had to take it daily because of severe allergies.

Just in case I'm not being clear, my point is nondoctors shouldn't be advising drugs as a means to cope with big law. Much healthier options out there (many of which have been suggested in this thread). Again, pretty shocking this is a controversial point.

*Also, just checked the zzzquil label online, and it says to stop using after two weeks if issues persist and see a doctor. Which is unsurprising given that long-term use of antihistimines isn't really advised (again, some people don't really have a choice due to severe allergies. That's obvious and not relevant to the point I'm making).

s1m4 wrote:Do you guys use Kindle or feel that the backlight defeats the purpose?

The Paperwhite has a frontlight, not a backlight. It makes all the difference, at least for me. I'll fall asleep reading my Kindle, but no chance if I'm screwing around on my phone or computer.

UnfrozenCaveman wrote:MMR vaccine really does it for me when I’m having trouble sleeping.

Plus, by the time you wake up you'll have autism. That's a huge advantage if you're in corporate.

trazadone is a prescription non-habit forming sleep aid that can be taken as often or as little as necessary