Discrepancy between Summer Associate Class and Entry Level Associates Forum

[Anonymous User]

Curious as to why there is such a discrepancy, for large NYC firms especially, between a firm's summer associate class size and entry-level attorney size for the following year

Some examples (from NALP)
S&C (NYC office only): 2L summer associates in 2017 - 103; entry level attorneys 2018 - 87 (66 were prior summer associates)
Skadden (NYC office only): 2L summer associates in 2018 - 115; entry level associates 2019 - 90
DPW (firmwide): 2L summer associates in 2018 - 171; entry level associates 2019 - 138
Weil (NYC only): 2L summer associates in 2017 - 99; entry level associates 2018 - 76
Cravath: 2L summer associates in 2017 - 119; entry level associates in 2018 - 97

Given that all of these firms gave out "100%" offers to their summer associate classes in these years, I am wondering why the number of entry-level associates the following year is significantly less? Is this a result of students doing clerkships? Cold-offers? Independently choosing to do 3L OCI? Am i missing something?

[cavalier1138]

Cold offers are a possibility, but clerkships and alternative employment probably account for most of those extra summers.

[Vexed]

-Clerkships
-Cold/no offers
-Visa lottery
-Market change
-Job change

[QContinuum]

-Clerkships
-Cold/no offers
-Visa lottery
-Market change
-Job change

Sure, but at the V10 firms OP mentions, in the current economy I think "cold/no offers" is an essentially negligible cause of the observed attrition. At the Cravath/DPWs of the world in 2017/18, the lion's share of attrition is going to be attributable to clerkships.

I don't even think leaving for PI would be a significant cause. Generally, PI-minded students willing to do a 2L SA are also willing to stay a few years in BigLaw before trying to leave for some kind of "national-level" PI gig. It's actually pretty rare to see a 2L SA at the V10 level go straight into PI work after graduation.

[BlackAndOrange84]

I agree this is almost entirely clerkships and maybe a little bit of folks shopping around for a different job (other firms, bigfed, some PI) or market their 3L year. Visa lottery and cold offers might take a few from each firm (and probably more visa lottery than cold offers).

ETA: A significant number of folks at these firms are going to be very competitive for clerkships. They have options. At my 2L firm, somebody once said they only expected about 2/3s of the summers to return because of clerkships and people shopping around for jobs after clerkships. Those are the same kind of folks who are competitive for Honors Program hires at DOJ or other federal agencies.

[notinbiglaw]

How are JD/MBAs (and other JD/Mxx’s) counted? A lot of those 2Ls won’t go back because they have two more years (3L summer is basically first and only summer of MBA portion).

[ConfusedNYer]

On top of what other's have mentioned there are tons of little things that individually don't account for much change but add up when considered together an alongside clerkships (people returning to firms where they summered 1L, people changing markets after 2L summer, fellowships, nonlegal jobs, etc.)

[QContinuum]

On top of what other's have mentioned there are tons of little things that individually don't account for much change but add up when considered together an alongside clerkships (people returning to firms where they summered 1L, people changing markets after 2L summer, fellowships, nonlegal jobs, etc.)

Yep - 2L split summers are somewhat common too.