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I'm hearing rumors that some firms are offering signing bonuses to students who accept summer associate offers, with no contingency that they accept a full-time offer afterwards. Has anyone else heard this? If this is happening, how big are they getting?

Those were supposed to be summer bonuses!

at least one Kirkland office is apparently offering 10k to some applicants if they accept their SA offer before OCI.

Have an offer with $10k signing bonus if I accept pre-OCI, payable August 2019. Contingent on working there during summer 2020 but not full time. Firm is not Kirkland

Wait...are they giving out signing bonuses for accepting a summer associate offer before OCI?

That’s brilliant.

What a cheap way to scoop up some of the best candidates.

notinbiglaw wrote:That’s brilliant.

What a cheap way to scoop up some of the best candidates.

I wonder. Presumably most of the "best" lit-focused candidates will go on to do clerkships regardless of where they summer, and then re-assess where to go (and have plenty of options) post-clerkship. And most of the "best" candidates focused on transactional work will have plenty of options at OCI; knowing they can start making boatloads of money right after law school, I'm not sure a mere $10k will outweigh long-term fit, location, practice area, and firm reputation considerations (eg., if you have the grades to go to Wachtell/Cravath/S&C, I doubt you'd opt out of having that option in your pocket and settle for Fried Frank just for $10K). So I think where this kind of move will really make a difference is for more of the "upper-half" rather than the "truly best" candidates.

Splurgles23 wrote: So I think where this kind of move will really make a difference is for more of the "upper-half" rather than the "truly best" candidates.

I’m the anon from earlier and would put myself in this category. Top 8% at a T-20 so I think I’m a strong candidate for good firms but not the highest tier. $10k obviously isn’t much in the context of biglaw salary, but that would be unbelievable for 2L living expenses and it could definitely sway me.

Splurgles23 wrote: And most of the "best" candidates focused on transactional work will have plenty of options at OCI; knowing they can start making boatloads of money right after law school, I'm not sure a mere $10k will outweigh long-term fit, location, practice area, and firm reputation considerations (eg., if you have the grades to go to Wachtell/Cravath/S&C, I doubt you'd opt out of having that option in your pocket and settle for Fried Frank just for $10K). So I think where this kind of move will really make a difference is for more of the "upper-half" rather than the "truly best" candidates.

Speaking just about that reputational element, how much would a firm like Fried Frank have to pay to get someone to pick them over Wachtell, for instance? Or is there no up-front lump sum that can capture what they'd be giving up?

Anonymous User wrote:

Splurgles23 wrote: And most of the "best" candidates focused on transactional work will have plenty of options at OCI; knowing they can start making boatloads of money right after law school, I'm not sure a mere $10k will outweigh long-term fit, location, practice area, and firm reputation considerations (eg., if you have the grades to go to Wachtell/Cravath/S&C, I doubt you'd opt out of having that option in your pocket and settle for Fried Frank just for $10K). So I think where this kind of move will really make a difference is for more of the "upper-half" rather than the "truly best" candidates.

Speaking just about that reputational element, how much would a firm like Fried Frank have to pay to get someone to pick them over Wachtell, for instance? Or is there no up-front lump sum that can capture what they'd be giving up?

If you're willing to work WLRK hours, I can't see what possible up-front incentive a firm like Fried Frank could reasonably offer. Think about it: if you've got the resume to have a chance at WLKR, you're likely willing to put in the hours/intensity and sacrifice some QoL as a junior; and the chances to do things down the road (DOJ, AUSA, in-house GC, whatever) are materially different coming out of WLKR than out of FF (this more or less tracks the same difference graduating from law schools like HYS as opposed to GW, UT, Northwestern: all are great, but from that first group it's just materially easier to get some of those really unicorn type positions. You have to think long-term).

I don't think that's just a vague, atmospheric reputational notion. The career trajectories of most of the people you look up online back this up. (Obviously the caveat is you've got to be willing to work WLRK hours. But for some people (in their mid-20s, want to make real money real quick for real work), the hours are worth it.

$10k to lock down a candidate you really like and to save some recruiting costs sounds like it’s worth it. I know my firm spends a ton of money on callbacks. I did a callback and (on short notice) a second look with my firm; the flights and hotel plus all other reimbursed expenses probably approached $3k. Now do the math for how many 2Ls the firm extends a callback for every accepted offer.

Splurgles23 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Splurgles23 wrote: And most of the "best" candidates focused on transactional work will have plenty of options at OCI; knowing they can start making boatloads of money right after law school, I'm not sure a mere $10k will outweigh long-term fit, location, practice area, and firm reputation considerations (eg., if you have the grades to go to Wachtell/Cravath/S&C, I doubt you'd opt out of having that option in your pocket and settle for Fried Frank just for $10K). So I think where this kind of move will really make a difference is for more of the "upper-half" rather than the "truly best" candidates.

Speaking just about that reputational element, how much would a firm like Fried Frank have to pay to get someone to pick them over Wachtell, for instance? Or is there no up-front lump sum that can capture what they'd be giving up?

If you're willing to work WLRK hours, I can't see what possible up-front incentive a firm like Fried Frank could reasonably offer. Think about it: if you've got the resume to have a chance at WLKR, you're likely willing to put in the hours/intensity and sacrifice some QoL as a junior; and the chances to do things down the road (DOJ, AUSA, in-house GC, whatever) are materially different coming out of WLKR than out of FF (this more or less tracks the same difference graduating from law schools like HYS as opposed to GW, UT, Northwestern: all are great, but from that first group it's just materially easier to get some of those really unicorn type positions. You have to think long-term).

I don't think that's just a vague, atmospheric reputational notion. The career trajectories of most of the people you look up online back this up. (Obviously the caveat is you've got to be willing to work WLRK hours. But for some people (in their mid-20s, want to make real money real quick for real work), the hours are worth it.

I think you have a couple of flawed assumptions here which is that people going into OCI often don’t have a strong sense of their own relatively worth and, even if they do, are often not entirely rational. While someone who is sure they’re qualified for a more prestigious big law position would probably not be swayed by the signing bonus, I could see a substantial minority of well qualified candidates taking the money and not testing the waters just because they lack the confidence to bet 10k on that. I ended up getting an offer and accepting at a v5 firm but would have been loath to bet on that going in if I had a 10k signing bonus offer from a firm I otherwise liked.

Also, even for people who do have a sense they could do “better”, if you have an offer +10k from K&E but think you could maybe land at a Cravath, I bet there are a lot of kids who would just take the 10k anyway and be done with it. It’s not like Kirkland is a bad firm.

So while I think you’re probably right, in terms of what people should do, I think you’re assuming people have better information and are more rational than they really are, which is why 10k signing bonuses are a smart move.

Dam now I'm upset I didn't get a signing bonus for my pre-OCI offer.

Even getting a bigger share of good but not shoo-in candidates for WLRK or whatever is a pretty good result for Kirkland.

Good feeling these summer bonuses are so that recruiting can fill the class faster and cheaper than going to OCI and doing callbacks.

I doubt very seriously that firms are trying to up their pedigree of candidate.

barkschool wrote:Good feeling these summer bonuses are so that recruiting can fill the class faster and cheaper than going to OCI and doing callbacks.

I doubt very seriously that firms are trying to up their pedigree of candidate.

This is probably right - another response to the new NALP rules. Firms don't want to go into OCI with a bunch of offers outstanding, and no real notion of how big their class will be. 10k for some certainty is probably cheaper than flying out a few more kids you were on the fence about, but wanted to bring in b/c you were worried some of the pre-OCI folks might not accept.

Also - comparing any other firm to WLRK is kinda flame. But if you're telling me that someone who survived 2 years at Cravath has materially better exit options that someone at FF for the same amount of time, you're only fooling yourself.

Reporting another firm that's doing the 10k if you sign by OCI thing. Looks like the market may have settled on that 10k number somehow.

Smh this profession has really fallen into dark times. Law students getting bonuses to be summers but no summer bonus.

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:Smh this profession has really fallen into dark times. Law students getting bonuses to be summers but no summer bonus.

AI Colonel Campbell is right.

This is some grade a bull shit. And on the flip side firms can't hold on to their mid levels. Also 1L SAs are such a dumb flame in general. These summers don't care about your firm they're just chasing that $.

Yugihoe wrote:This is some grade a bull shit. And on the flip side firms can't hold on to their mid levels. Also 1L SAs are such a dumb flame in general. These summers don't care about your firm they're just chasing that $.

Dude you can’t talk about the TOP TIER TALENT like that