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Looking for Big or (more likely) Mid-law firms that pay market or close to it (within let’s say 20,000 of 190k) but that have billables at or lower than let’s say 1900. I know a bunch claim to have no billable requirement but for purposes of this question those places don’t count unless you could legitimately bill less than 1900 year after year and be in good standing

My personal interest is in Philly or DC but there’s probably not that many firms that are paying around 170k or more and let you bill 1900 or less so feel free to mention any firms that come to mind even if not in those markets.

As far as I can tell only boutiques fit this bill. I do have friends and some biglaw shops who claim they can routinely bill 1800 with no consequence and often even get bonus. I’m not sure how much stock to put in that that but if you’re at such a place and that’s been your experience feel free to add as well.

Willkie in DC, although a small office, has no minimum hours and pays full market.

Fish & Richardson. Market salary, 1900 minimum, usually (but not always) lower bonus unless you bill 2100+.

Morgan Lewis. Market salary, 1,900 hour target for full bonus. One quirk is the firm doesn't actually confirm the bonus target until the end of the fiscal year, but it's always been 19.

Ropes & Gray. 1900 billable hours (pro bono hours counted with no cap) to get market bonus.

I think OP is asking for firms where you can reasonably expect to bill 1900 or less every year, not firms where you can bill 1900 and get a bonus. At most of the places mentioned I’m guessing the true hours expectations are standard non-NYC biglaw.

May depend on practice group.

Milbank (LA at least). No hours requirement and know several people who were regularly under 1900, sometimes by a good amount, and made it several years. The firm and office is changing, though, not sure how much longer the gravy train will last.

Anonymous User wrote:Fish & Richardson. Market salary, 1900 minimum, usually (but not always) lower bonus unless you bill 2100+.

I'm skeptical of Fish. 1900 is claimed min, but they had the highest average billed hours out of any firm at 1916+

Dechert pays market and gives a full bonus at 1950 hours. 200 hours can be pro bono (and more if you request it and are approved), and 25 hours can be shadowing partners.

OP wants to work close to 1900 hours. Fish, Ropes, Dechert? Those firms aren’t lifestyle firms that encourage associates to bill under 2000 hours with a promise of a bonus.

I’ve heard Goulston & Storrs is 1800 or something.

I wouldn't put too much stock in published minimums. They rarely have all that much bearing on what you will actually be working.

Isn’t Skadden 1800, or is my friend there gravely misunderstanding expectations?

Your best bet here are going to be regional mid law firms that pay 140-160 with a highly compressed pay scale as you become more senior. Those are the firms that I tend to see have lifestyle cultures.

I truly do not think it matters. I worked at a firm where before they raised the billable target tons came in right above 1900 a year. The thing was that was a median. A very select few people probably made great careers doing that. Lots struggled to keep it below 2200 and maintain a good (not even great) reputation. Lots more lived the dream for 1-3 years billing 1915 each year and never found *anyone* in the firm to go to bat for them and ended up lateraling, leaving law, or taking a quick not great exit. I'm not clear why but I'd bet many, if not most, weren't totally excited about that outcome.

IMO it often requires a lot of bullshit, games, skill, and burned bridges to keep hours to just above good standing and still end up with halfway decent exit options after 5 years in most reputable big law firms. And still you're constantly faced with the possibility that one of those burned bridges will bite you in the ass.

YMMV and a lot comes down to luck and the teams you work with. I think most midlevels with a wealth of savvy, friends and resources would struggle to land at a place where you could reliably bill 1900 year after year and still be thought of as a good (not even great) associate in BL. Good luck finding that on a forum.

There's no magic bullet here folks. Biglaw is a slog and giant crapshoot at best.

Anonymous User wrote:Isn’t Skadden 1800, or is my friend there gravely misunderstanding expectations?

Possibly and yes.

OP here, still very interested in this if anyone has anything further to add. As someone noted above, my question has less to do with posted billables and more to do with finding places where you could reasonably bill 1900 or less each year without feeling like you might lose your job.

Nixon Peabody advertises 1850 billables. However, they are not market (currently 180 in major markets) and bonuses are not market either. You need to bill 2400 to get a market bonus. However, almost no one has the work to get to 2400.

Anonymous User wrote:Nixon Peabody advertises 1850 billables. However, they are not market (currently 180 in major markets) and bonuses are not market either. You need to bill 2400 to get a market bonus. However, almost no one has the work to get to 2400.

This. OP is looking for a unicorn firm that doesn't exist. If you truly want more lax hours, you're going to sacrifice on (1) salary, (2) salary progression (i.e. highly compressed), and (3) bonuses. There is no mythical lockstep $180k firm with healthy bonuses that lets you bill 1800 hours a year.

That being said, I know Husch Blackwell Chicago pays $160k and associates billed 1740 on average in 2018 and 1698 on average in 2017 (source: NALP). I don't work there, but I have friends who do and it seems very lifestyle friendly. Plus, $160k in Chicago is honestly probably better than market in NYC from a QOL standpoint through at least the junior years.

Day Pitney's offices in NY and Boston pay 170k with 1800 billable minimum for bonus. Salary range is compressed for midlevels and bonuses start at 15k.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Nixon Peabody advertises 1850 billables. However, they are not market (currently 180 in major markets) and bonuses are not market either. You need to bill 2400 to get a market bonus. However, almost no one has the work to get to 2400.

This. OP is looking for a unicorn firm that doesn't exist. If you truly want more lax hours, you're going to sacrifice on (1) salary, (2) salary progression (i.e. highly compressed), and (3) bonuses. There is no mythical lockstep $180k firm with healthy bonuses that lets you bill 1800 hours a year.

That being said, I know Husch Blackwell Chicago pays $160k and associates billed 1740 on average in 2018 and 1698 on average in 2017 (source: NALP). I don't work there, but I have friends who do and it seems very lifestyle friendly. Plus, $160k in Chicago is honestly probably better than market in NYC from a QOL standpoint through at least the junior years.

Could you PM me about your friends who work there? I'm deciding between there and Morgan Lewis.

I wouldn't recommend it as a place to work, but Pepper regularly has a ton of slacker-pants associates and practice groups that bill decently under target (1950). It's pretty normal to be under hours at Pepper with no repercussions. It's kind of flailing around as a firm though, so again, not the best place to work. It has a lot of pride about its historical reputation but a lot of cognitive dissonance about the fact that it's not a Philly powerhouse anymore. Pepper does not pay NY-market in Philly though.

repliCAN wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Nixon Peabody advertises 1850 billables. However, they are not market (currently 180 in major markets) and bonuses are not market either. You need to bill 2400 to get a market bonus. However, almost no one has the work to get to 2400.

This. OP is looking for a unicorn firm that doesn't exist. If you truly want more lax hours, you're going to sacrifice on (1) salary, (2) salary progression (i.e. highly compressed), and (3) bonuses. There is no mythical lockstep $180k firm with healthy bonuses that lets you bill 1800 hours a year.

That being said, I know Husch Blackwell Chicago pays $160k and associates billed 1740 on average in 2018 and 1698 on average in 2017 (source: NALP). I don't work there, but I have friends who do and it seems very lifestyle friendly. Plus, $160k in Chicago is honestly probably better than market in NYC from a QOL standpoint through at least the junior years.

Could you PM me about your friends who work there? I'm deciding between there and Morgan Lewis.

Not sure if “there” is referring to Husch Blackwell or Nixon; but in either event you’d be leaving tens of thousands on table (over course of 2-4 years, and way more if you stay 5+ years) by picking either of those firms over Morgan Lewis.

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:I truly do not think it matters. I worked at a firm where before they raised the billable target tons came in right above 1900 a year. The thing was that was a median. A very select few people probably made great careers doing that. Lots struggled to keep it below 2200 and maintain a good (not even great) reputation. Lots more lived the dream for 1-3 years billing 1915 each year and never found *anyone* in the firm to go to bat for them and ended up lateraling, leaving law, or taking a quick not great exit. I'm not clear why but I'd bet many, if not most, weren't totally excited about that outcome.

IMO it often requires a lot of bullshit, games, skill, and burned bridges to keep hours to just above good standing and still end up with halfway decent exit options after 5 years in most reputable big law firms. And still you're constantly faced with the possibility that one of those burned bridges will bite you in the ass.

YMMV and a lot comes down to luck and the teams you work with. I think most midlevels with a wealth of savvy, friends and resources would struggle to land at a place where you could reliably bill 1900 year after year and still be thought of as a good (not even great) associate in BL. Good luck finding that on a forum.

There's no magic bullet here folks. Biglaw is a slog and giant crapshoot at best.

^

As a corollary, wanted to mention that big 4 offers in NYC for JD grads only require 1600-1700 or so hours and come with salary (at least for me) of 120k + 10k (bar passage bonus) + 5k (typical bonus) + 4k (bar prep). I've never heard of an associate in on Saturdays, and many work from home on Fridays. Hours are also lenient for the first few years, apparently.