K&E questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Looking for insights from current or former K&E associates:

1. Starting from how many billable hours do the hours no longer matter for bonus? Understand that K&E bonuses have both a merit component and time component, so does that mean the more you bill the more bonuses you will get?

2. Usually when will you be told if you can make NSP? Understand that the promotion is typically announced in October. Does that mean people usually find out in September?

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Looking for insights from current or former K&E associates:

1. Starting from how many billable hours do the hours no longer matter for bonus? Understand that K&E bonuses have both a merit component and time component, so does that mean the more you bill the more bonuses you will get?

2. Usually when will you be told if you can make NSP? Understand that the promotion is typically announced in October. Does that mean people usually find out in September?

Thanks!

Current K&E associate.

1. Yes, early on (years 1-3), your hours are the main driver of your bonus, since pretty much every associate at that level is ranked at class. Depending on your tolerance, the marginal utility of billing an extra 100 hours likely decreases around 2300-2400 hours. As you move up, the merit component of your bonus is a more determinative factor in your bonus.

2. If you’re getting good reviews and you’re able to stick it out 6 years or so, you’ll make NSP. You’ll probably know around years 3-4 if the writing is on the wall.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks! Is the bonus this year determined based on hours billed from last July till this June?

[TestAccount12345]

Looking for insights from current or former K&E associates:

1. Starting from how many billable hours do the hours no longer matter for bonus? Understand that K&E bonuses have both a merit component and time component, so does that mean the more you bill the more bonuses you will get?

Current K&E associate.

1. Yes, early on (years 1-3), your hours are the main driver of your bonus, since pretty much every associate at that level is ranked at class. Depending on your tolerance, the marginal utility of billing an extra 100 hours likely decreases around 2300-2400 hours. As you move up, the merit component of your bonus is a more determinative factor in your bonus.

In addition to what this poster said, I’ve been told that after 2500 hours it literally caps out. On the flip side, I’ve heard that 1800 is still enough to net you a Cravath bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks! Is the bonus this year determined based on hours billed from last July till this June?

The bonus year runs from September through August.

They usually let people know they will be NSP at the previous year's review (barring some major screw up). And, by that time you already pretty much know. If you can last five years without getting fired or quitting, you are a pretty great biglaw associate.

[Anonymous User]

Not OP, but current KE 4th year. Is it at all possible to get a 2 when you are billing less than 2000 hrs/year? I got a 3 last year, but the little grid of reviews was 80% "accomplished" and otherwise pretty good. On the other hand, I think I'm cruising to like 1825-50 hours this bonus period. Maybe I should just be happy to keep my job; idk.

[PvblivsScipio]

Not OP, but current KE 4th year. Is it at all possible to get a 2 when you are billing less than 2000 hrs/year? I got a 3 last year, but the little grid of reviews was 80% "accomplished" and otherwise pretty good. On the other hand, I think I'm cruising to like 1825-50 hours this bonus period. Maybe I should just be happy to keep my job; idk.

Not killing yourself billing and getting paid a market bonus is pretty much the best biglaw outcome if you have no aspirations to make partner.

[Anonymous User]

Looking for insights from current or former K&E associates:

1. Starting from how many billable hours do the hours no longer matter for bonus? Understand that K&E bonuses have both a merit component and time component, so does that mean the more you bill the more bonuses you will get?

Current K&E associate.

1. Yes, early on (years 1-3), your hours are the main driver of your bonus, since pretty much every associate at that level is ranked at class. Depending on your tolerance, the marginal utility of billing an extra 100 hours likely decreases around 2300-2400 hours. As you move up, the merit component of your bonus is a more determinative factor in your bonus.

In addition to what this poster said, I’ve been told that after 2500 hours it literally caps out. On the flip side, I’ve heard that 1800 is still enough to net you a Cravath bonus.

I don't think that part is correct.

Current K&E associate here. A friend of mine billed approx. 2600, and another billed approx. 2700. The latter had a higher bonus (both junior associates so merit rating was not a factor). So if there is a cap, it does not kick in at 2500 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Current very high billing senior associate at K&E. The “cap” isn’t so much a thing as far as I can tell. It is more the fact that the incremental benefit from the extra hours diminishes significantly around 2700 hours. I had somewhere between 2900 and 3000 as a second year and nearly 3100 as a third year and the bonus multiplier for my third year was only minimally greater as compared to my second year.

Said another way, the multiplier on your bonus increases more between 2000 and 2200 than it does between 2700 - 2900. As has been said countless times, you shouldn’t be aiming for 3000 hours to in order to get a larger bonus. The benefit is just not worth it in my opinion compared to the incremental pain of each extra 50 hours when you’re in that range.

[jkpolk]

Current very high billing senior associate at K&E. The “cap” isn’t so much a thing as far as I can tell. It is more the fact that the incremental benefit from the extra hours diminishes significantly around 2700 hours. I had somewhere between 2900 and 3000 as a second year and nearly 3100 as a third year and the bonus multiplier for my third year was only minimally greater as compared to my second year.

Said another way, the multiplier on your bonus increases more between 2000 and 2200 than it does between 2700 - 2900. As has been said countless times, you shouldn’t be aiming for 3000 hours to in order to get a larger bonus. The benefit is just not worth it in my opinion compared to the incremental pain of each extra 50 hours when you’re in that range.

Dear god, that's so many signature pages

[s1m4]

Why bill so much if its a free market system? Is it that you are just given stuff that you can't turn down work? Whenever I'm on pace for ~2,200 I stop seeking out work and seem to comfortably land between 2 and 2.1k each year, which is fine; is it because youre actively seeking out the extra bonus?

[Anonymous User]

How much difference does the NSP title typically make when looking for lateral or exit options, say as compared with a 7th year associate at a peer firm?

[Anonymous User]

How much difference does the NSP title typically make when looking for lateral or exit options, say as compared with a 7th year associate at a peer firm?

I worked at a lower vault and we would regularly hire 3-4 year non-equity partners from K&E as equity partners (9-10 years out). I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone else hired as an equity partner with only 9-10 years experience. Heck, internally, the firm didn’t even consider promoting homegrown associates to equity until year 11.

I think it has less to do with the actual title and more to do with what you can get accomplished with that title. For example, we had a 10th year equivalent non-equity partner from K&E become a deputy chair of a department at hiring. That person had 3-4 years as a partner to drum up business.

[Anonymous User]

How much difference does the NSP title typically make when looking for lateral or exit options, say as compared with a 7th year associate at a peer firm?

I worked at a lower vault and we would regularly hire 3-4 year non-equity partners from K&E as equity partners (9-10 years out). I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone else hired as an equity partner with only 9-10 years experience. Heck, internally, the firm didn’t even consider promoting homegrown associates to equity until year 11.

I think it has less to do with the actual title and more to do with what you can get accomplished with that title. For example, we had a 10th year equivalent non-equity partner from K&E become a deputy chair of a department at hiring. That person had 3-4 years as a partner to drum up business.

For a different data point - we hired a non-equity partner from K&E and he/she came in as a senior associate. Secondary market v20.

[Anonymous User]

What are typical hours expectations at k&e in the private equity m&a practice if someone wants to make NSP?

[MillllerTime]

What are typical hours expectations at k&e in the private equity m&a practice if someone wants to make NSP?

I am aware of at least a few who have made NSP with consistent 1800-1900 like hours. I am sure the are plenty like that: NSP isn't necessarily difficult to make. That said, you'd probably want to be at 2200 to feel comfortable with your hours. Being above that helps I'm sure, but not necessary if you are competent.

Staying a NSP and making shares who be a very different story.

[Anonymous User]

Feel like some associates at 1800ish are just too efficient. Their workload could be even higher than some enthcial billers at 2200 or so. Haven’t seen any unethical biller got fired at K&E.

[Anonymous User]

People overestimate the significance of hours and underestimate the soft part of the analysis for K&E appraisals and bonuses. When the partners in the group discuss associate appraisals hours is only a small part of it - it's really rare that anyone gets broken out as a 2 before 4th year, whatever their hours, and you really do have to be exceptional for it to happen before 5th year. Hours alone is meaningless - if people are using you on the good deals (not the crap for whatever partner is currently acting as the departure lounge) you will be billing around or above the group average and you will get a decent bonus and become NSP if you can stick it for 6 years. Most of the gunners going for 3000 hours are doing it with future share partnership in mind. If your hours are well below group average and/or people don't want to staff you on the good stuff, then you should start looking for another job. Hours are a symptom - not the determinant of success/failure.

[Anonymous User]

Think your larger point is true, but, as you said, pretty much everyone gets a 3 until 4/5 year. So hours are the sole determinant of bonus for those people. Not that the extra $ are worth the extra hours really, but that's a separate point.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know anything about the Kirkland Dallas office? Like how big they want it to be and what practice groups they are trying to grow there? They seem to be growing really slowly so I'm just wondering

I know the Houston office has 50ish summers for the 150 attorneys in that office so they are obviously trying to grow fast, even if it is just with juniors. Does the Dallas office have a large summer class too?

Mods please don't un-anon me. I know this question doesn't seem like it need to be anon, but I've definitely said enough under my username to identify me and I don't want my office to know I am already looking at lateral options.

[Anonymous User]

Think your larger point is true, but, as you said, pretty much everyone gets a 3 until 4/5 year. So hours are the sole determinant of bonus for those people. Not that the extra $ are worth the extra hours really, but that's a separate point.

Some people get 4s or 5s.......

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know anything about the Kirkland Dallas office? Like how big they want it to be and what practice groups they are trying to grow there? They seem to be growing really slowly so I'm just wondering

I know the Houston office has 50ish summers for the 150 attorneys in that office so they are obviously trying to grow fast, even if it is just with juniors. Does the Dallas office have a large summer class too?

I think around 15 summers in Dallas this year. That office will grow - they are building the associate pipeline through summers in anticipation of growth. No lit or funds there yet but they are building out across transactional areas - M&A/Cap Mkts/Debt/Tax etc. Wouldn't be surprised to see more lateral partner hires in place by the time this year's summers start as associates.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know anything about the Kirkland Dallas office? Like how big they want it to be and what practice groups they are trying to grow there? They seem to be growing really slowly so I'm just wondering

I know the Houston office has 50ish summers for the 150 attorneys in that office so they are obviously trying to grow fast, even if it is just with juniors. Does the Dallas office have a large summer class too?

Mods please don't un-anon me. I know this question doesn't seem like it need to be anon, but I've definitely said enough under my username to identify me and I don't want my office to know I am already looking at lateral options.

Intentionally anon to say this: if you are senior associate or higher, you are safe to lateral. If mid to junior, I would recommend staying away. Not enough work, too much associates, toxic, competitive environment.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a second year general corp associate who is likely going to be around 1800 hours. I constantly worry about being so far below what I imagine is the average for my office (not CHI or NYC), yet a couple partners assure me it isn’t a big deal. Still, I don’t seem to have too many share partners reaching out to staff me. Would I be wise to start plotting my exit?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know anything about the Kirkland Dallas office? Like how big they want it to be and what practice groups they are trying to grow there? They seem to be growing really slowly so I'm just wondering

I know the Houston office has 50ish summers for the 150 attorneys in that office so they are obviously trying to grow fast, even if it is just with juniors. Does the Dallas office have a large summer class too?

Mods please don't un-anon me. I know this question doesn't seem like it need to be anon, but I've definitely said enough under my username to identify me and I don't want my office to know I am already looking at lateral options.

Intentionally anon to say this: if you are senior associate or higher, you are safe to lateral. If mid to junior, I would recommend staying away. Not enough work, too much associates, toxic, competitive environment.

I'm the anon who asked the original question - thanks for this insight. It's very helpful to hear as a midlevel