Jones Day Compensation Data Points Forum

[Anonymous User]

Dude, the Silicon Valley partner in question was an ERISA partner. ERISA partners are notorious for being paid without a book of business because their work is so essential to M&A, bankruptcy, etc. transactions and does not require business origination of any kind. There are ERISA partners at Cravath and Debevoise being given a cut of partner profits in New York without doing ANY BUSINESS ORIGINATION and billing 1,200 hours a year. And unlike at JD, a cut of partner profits at an elite Manhattan law firm is not $800,000-- it's $4.5 million on average. There are likely ERISA partners at top New York firms being paid $6-8 million who bill almost nothing and bring in no business. Those partners are why Davis Polk et al. are moving away from lockstep.

So spare me some argument about how $800,000 for an ERISA partner at Jones Day is something special. It's not. In fact, if you were to parse the entire list that has been posted here, you'd find the compensation listed includes extraordinary, one-off payments for departing employees to government (e.g., Burnham; Francisco) that makes their comp look more lucrative than in reality, and otherwise is much, much less than at a true prestige law firm in New York (e.g., with a PPP of $5 million or higher -- and all of CSM, DPW, STB, Sullivan, Paul, Weiss, Deb will breach that figure this year).

Yeah this seems like a weird comparison. I think everyone agrees that Cravath and S&C partners make boatloads of money. But I think the proper comparators to Jones Day are places like Jenner or Hogan or Orrick. Places like that probably are starting “partners” off in the 500k range with non-rainmakers scaling up to $1M. (Example: Kenneth Kiyul at Jenner making $900k, Daniel Collins at MTO making $900k.). And more senior partners would be making from $1M to whatever the firm values them at (Example: Aaron Zebley at Wilmerhale making $1.4M, Robert Mueller at Wilmerhale making over $3M, Chris Wray at King & Spaulding making like $10M or something).

But announcing that a Cravath equity partner makes a lot more than a Jones Day equity partner is like saying that YLS creates more SCOTUS clerks than Cornell Law School—no shit?

[Anonymous User]

Interest at OCI in JD (through bidding, at least) did not go down this year at my T6. The compensation scheme is insanity to me, but the election-related litigation is a ridiculous consideration to me given that its lawsuit (unlike some of the K&S suits) was about an actual open legal issue.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

JD associate here. The larger takeaway is that JD is no different from most generic biglaw firms: the vast majority of associates are T-14 median or above; or top of their class at lower-ranked schools. Which is to say, there is no reason that JD associates should be paid less than their biglaw peers.

It's been a few years (not that many) but JD Chicago had the lowest median GPA for summer associate offers at my t14 of any major firm. It was below median at my school (lower T14). So I would say, based on my limited experience, the above is not true.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking as someone who's starting at JD in the fall, I consider myself "lucky to be there" primarily because I had an atrocious OCI cycle with mediocre credentials; if it weren't for JD I wouldn't have gotten any offers from my desired non-NYC market. It seems like a chill place overall, but I certainly don't get the kool-aid for it, and if I'm able to lateral in the first 2-3 years to one of the firms I liked better during OCI (or if I can get a clerkship and reset), I'm gonna do it. I just don't get the full-throated defense of it to such extremes in this thread.

[Anonymous User]

ITT: millennial associates saying that a partner with no book making $800k and a partner living in Columbus, OH and making $1.5 million are idiots

[Anonymous User]

I'm a little confused by the Jones Day hate. Yes, they pay undermarket. Yes, they are less profitable than many of the firms mentioned in this thread, such as Cravath, Kirkland, and Debevoise. And, yes, their compensation system is opaque and almost certainly compensates many partners, particularly younger partners, at well less than a $1 million a year.

But in many practice areas, and particularly for litigators, exit options got pretty bleak for senior associates who want to keep making in the mid-hundreds of thousands. Jones Day seems to be a pretty good option.

What am I missing?

[objctnyrhnr]

I'm a little confused by the Jones Day hate. Yes, they pay undermarket. Yes, they are less profitable than many of the firms mentioned in this thread, such as Cravath, Kirkland, and Debevoise. And, yes, their compensation system is opaque and almost certainly compensates many partners, particularly younger partners, at well less than a $1 million a year.

But in many practice areas, and particularly for litigators, exit options got pretty bleak for senior associates who want to keep making in the mid-hundreds of thousands. Jones Day seems to be a pretty good option.

What am I missing?

Also the whole fedsoc obsession thing doesn’t really help. But the bolded is it primarily.

You’re basically saying hey partnership chances are somewhat higher so it makes sense that associates at a v20 have to get paid wayyy under market for like the 8 years leading up to it. Ehhhh

[tlsguy2020]

ITT: millennial associates saying that a partner with no book making $800k and a partner living in Columbus, OH and making $1.5 million are idiots

What losers. If they had any foresight, they would have just made equity partner at Wachtell. No book necessary. Marty brings the business; ERISA group brings the brains. Everyone makes $6M, but $7M is possible if you hit 2400.

EDIT: Just looked above and it seems that, in fact, ERISA partners in New York with no books that bill 1200 hours are getting paid $6M-$8M. And at minimum, they are getting a cut of partner profits at $4.5M. This is quite dangerous. As we all know, Dewey collapsed after an ERISA partner got carried away negotiating Lehman's HSA plan and billed 2500 hours. Lehman's bankruptcy trustee refused to pay the ERISA partner the $20 million owed for her work. Dewey collapsed. DiCarmine was prosecuted. Rumor is that the ERISA partner washed up in Palo Alto where she's been trying to make ends meet on $800k.

[Anonymous User]

Thinking of lateraling to Jones Day. Please only answer if you actually work there or have worked there. Three questions:

(1) Does Jones Day have Westlaw? (I've heard some firms use Lexis for cost-saving reasons.) If yes, does Jones Day limit how many searches you run or bill clients by search somehow? I've heard some firms do.

(2) Does Jones Day pay for Ubers/cars home after a certain hour? (Or, rather, did they before the pandemic?)

(3) Are they cheap in other ways that affect quality of life?

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

What is JD’s policy or at least perception of hybrid WFH? Think would work in Cleveland but commute around 2 hrs each way 3 days a week.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, if you take a car home or have dinner at the office you can charge the client. Yes, we have Westlaw and there are no restrictions on usage. I am a mid level and really like Jones Day but it is fair to say that they are cheaper than other big firms. It hasn’t affected my quality of life but to provide an example the firm reimburses $200 every two years for a new cell phone (not the entire purchase price).

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, my office has lost multiple partners and associates since February. I think the special bonuses have all but broken morale

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, my office has lost multiple partners and associates since February. I think the special bonuses have all but broken morale

I'm not challenging your observations, but do you have hard evidence of the firm's headcount or financial situation declining? I'm aware of certain partner-level departures, but I'm also aware of significant partner-level additions in the last few months. I've been seeing doom-and-gloom reports about Jones Day on this board for years but the firm always seems to come out fine. Am I missing something?

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, my office has lost multiple partners and associates since February. I think the special bonuses have all but broken morale

I'm not challenging your observations, but do you have hard evidence of the firm's headcount or financial situation declining? I'm aware of certain partner-level departures, but I'm also aware of significant partner-level additions in the last few months. I've been seeing doom-and-gloom reports about Jones Day on this board for years but the firm always seems to come out fine. Am I missing something?

Keeping this vague to not out myself, but most associates in my office left for political reasons (took them a couple of months to lateral) or for better compensation. I don't think the firm's financial situation has declined at all. It's more that I think other firms giving out special bonuses has encouraged people to leave (at least in my office).

It's also entirely possible that my office is an outlier in terms of our departures.

[Anonymous User]

In my secondary JD office we’ve been hemmoraging associates. Most other firms in the city have been paying special bonuses and/or raised salaries to the Cravath scale. Most people I know (myself included) plan to GTFO if and when we get screwed on comp again in July.

[Anonymous User]

Not quite a comp question but with plenty of firms coming and poaching, such as Winston, K&E, and Shearman in recent years, any sense on how Dallas is doing generally?

Anon because I have an interest in/relation to that office.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid level in a secondary market. I do not make anywhere near the cravath scale but do get paid more than anywhere else in my city. The recruiters have been hitting us hard. If I have an offer from a peer firm paying market but would prefer to stay at JD, does anyone have any sense as to whether it would be beneficial to let JD know or is that shooting myself in the foot if I ultimately decide to stay?

[Anonymous User]

I’m a sixth year at Jones Day. It sounds like you are getting paid at the top of the market already so if you want to lateral to a market that pays more you should do that (and either leave JD or stay as you prefer).

[Anonymous User]

Also a 6th year at JD. I'm a little confused by the situation--is your offer from a peer firm paying market in your same market? Or is it in another market? If it's in the same market, it's a little confusing because you said JD pays at top of market in your city. I ask all those things because if it's the case that you have a better-paying offer in your city, then it might be worth raising that with a trusted partner in your office (if you have one). I have heard through the grapevine that the firm may offer more money if your intent is to stay in the market but go to a higher-paying firm. I have not heard of situations where the firm offers more money if you're planning to leave the city, even if you're going to another city where JD has an office (although it's certainly possible that has happened).

[Anonymous User]

Also a 6th year at JD. I'm a little confused by the situation--is your offer from a peer firm paying market in your same market? Or is it in another market? If it's in the same market, it's a little confusing because you said JD pays at top of market in your city. I ask all those things because if it's the case that you have a better-paying offer in your city, then it might be worth raising that with a trusted partner in your office (if you have one). I have heard through the grapevine that the firm may offer more money if your intent is to stay in the market but go to a higher-paying firm. I have not heard of situations where the firm offers more money if you're planning to leave the city, even if you're going to another city where JD has an office (although it's certainly possible that has happened).

Sorry for the confusion - the offer is from a firm in a coastal major market city but the position is remote with minimal travel requirements so I would not need to relocate.

[Anonymous User]

I think this is an easy question: would you rather stay at Jones Day or lateral to get more $? If the answer is the former, you may as well try and have them match (I’ve never heard of anyone trying this but it may have happened). If the answer is the latter, then just lateral to the other firm.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Also a 6th year at JD. I'm a little confused by the situation--is your offer from a peer firm paying market in your same market? Or is it in another market? If it's in the same market, it's a little confusing because you said JD pays at top of market in your city. I ask all those things because if it's the case that you have a better-paying offer in your city, then it might be worth raising that with a trusted partner in your office (if you have one). I have heard through the grapevine that the firm may offer more money if your intent is to stay in the market but go to a higher-paying firm. I have not heard of situations where the firm offers more money if you're planning to leave the city, even if you're going to another city where JD has an office (although it's certainly possible that has happened).

Sorry for the confusion - the offer is from a firm in a coastal major market city but the position is remote with minimal travel requirements so I would not need to relocate.

Do you mean the firm will let you work anywhere but you have to travel to your "home office" sometimes?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone else feel like their experience at JD hasn't been all that bad? I'm in a market-paying city and received a lateral offer to a more highly regarded firm in the same city. Compensation would obviously be much higher due to bonuses, but I feel like I have a surprisingly manageable work-life balance at JD that arguably makes the lower compensation worth it. Does anyone else feel like the work-life balance makes the lower compensation worth it?

[Anonymous User]

Yes. I am a 6th year in a major market. My compensation does not match other firms when you take into account fall/summer/“special” bonuses but I have no desire to lateral because I think the firm and have a good QOL.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone else feel like their experience at JD hasn't been all that bad? I'm in a market-paying city and received a lateral offer to a more highly regarded firm in the same city. Compensation would obviously be much higher due to bonuses, but I feel like I have a surprisingly manageable work-life balance at JD that arguably makes the lower compensation worth it. Does anyone else feel like the work-life balance makes the lower compensation worth it?

Lots of people feel this way, but they don't usually check TLS. Honestly, Jones Day may have the best work-life balance of any V20 (not like that's saying much...). With a RPL about half the others, it doesn't need to squeeze the same volume of blood out of each associate. Other firms offer a similar work-life balance if you know where to look, especially midlaw and boutiques. But as far as biglaw, Jones Day isn't that bad.