Jones Day Compensation Data Points Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm an associate who complained earlier in the thread and a retraction is in order... got a very good raise despite low 2020 hours. I wish the firm were more transparent, but can't personally complain about the outcome at all.

[Anonymous User]

The fact that you guys are even having these conversations makes JD seem extra terrible relative to other biglaw. Particularly those in major markets with lots of other options, do you all just love JD such that you want to stay and deal with this kind of stuff? What keeps you there?

Second this. JD associates have solid credentials and work just as hard as other biglaw associates. Why stick around and get paid less? It's one thing to make the choice as a law student who didn't really know any better (I certainly did not and JD was one of my OCI picks), but getting overworked and underpaid and a toxic culture to boot? Makes no sense.

I would never work at JD, but I can tell you there are really bad/scary stories of abuse by partners at JD circulating in the legal community. Partners there have badmouthed to other law firms the few talented and well credentialed associates they have when those associates apply to or interview at more prestigious and better-paying law firms (like the V10 I work at) in order to retain them. In one instance I can think of, the associate found out and the entire thing went to hell. I would be very wary of joining JD — you might get stuck there if they want to keep you.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an associate who complained earlier in the thread and a retraction is in order... got a very good raise despite low 2020 hours. I wish the firm were more transparent, but can't personally complain about the outcome at all.

190 or 170 market? What year are you? And what do you mean by low? Also, do you mean 2020 hours, or 2019 hours? Presumably these raises were tied to 2019 hours still. Sorry for the 20 questions, but it’s helpful to have as much info as ppl are willing to share.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an associate who complained earlier in the thread and a retraction is in order... got a very good raise despite low 2020 hours. I wish the firm were more transparent, but can't personally complain about the outcome at all.

190 or 170 market? What year are you? And what do you mean by low? Also, do you mean 2020 hours, or 2019 hours? Presumably these raises were tied to 2019 hours still. Sorry for the 20 questions, but it’s helpful to have as much info as ppl are willing to share.

Different poster than above, but the consensus with my colleagues is the raises are all still tied to 2019 hours and performance/reviews. My “raise” amounts to getting paid $20/hr for every hour over 2k.

[Anonymous User]

Current JD associate in secondary market. I got a very modest "raise" between 3-7k. I had low hours in 2019 (like super super super low due to stub year). A colleague who has about average hours for the firm got a pay cut earlier this year and did not get a return to prior salary during this second round of comp decisions (which we suspect is the firm's way of showing people the door). Prior to these new and stupid comp decisions coming out, I had already decided I needed to leave due to political reasons. Now even more reason to leave.

Regarding toxic people, I think that will depend on which office you're in and who you work with. I've heard bad things about some partners (from colleagues). But I've been lucky to work with caring, thoughtful and smart people (associates and partners). Thats not enough to make me stay though. As soon as I can, I'm leaving.

[Anonymous User]

Upping this thread in light of special bonuses.

Current NLG in a cravath-scale market. What are the odds of NLGs getting a mid-year salary bump to (at least partially) reflect special bonuses. 0%? More than 0%?

Would appreciate any thoughts.

[Anonymous User]

Upping this thread in light of special bonuses.

Current NLG in a cravath-scale market. What are the odds of NLGs getting a mid-year salary bump to (at least partially) reflect special bonuses. 0%? More than 0%?

Would appreciate any thoughts.

It depends on how many associates who are being undercompensated start interviewing between now and June. Jones Day will only pay if a large number of people start threatening to leave (i.e., the associates throw a wrench in the business operations of the firm) by interviewing at other law firms and actually departing. Just making noise about it but not taking action won't be enough. And believe me, your office's management committees are absolutely writing down which names are showing up as those with resumes in the market and making retention pay decisions accordingly (if the partners like you).

If you have good credentials at JD (prestige undergrad, T14 or especially T6 law school) then you should absolutely make some noise by putting some feelers out there. It will show up in your comp. Bad resumes are usually very badly compensated at that firm, because they feel lucky to even be associated with a reasonable, if not top tier, law firm. And as we know, there are a lot of bad resumes at JD.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

[Anonymous User]

It depends on how many associates who are being undercompensated start interviewing between now and June. Jones Day will only pay if a large number of people start threatening to leave (i.e., the associates throw a wrench in the business operations of the firm) by interviewing at other law firms and actually departing. Just making noise about it but not taking action won't be enough. And believe me, your office's management committees are absolutely writing down which names are showing up as those with resumes in the market and making retention pay decisions accordingly (if the partners like you).

If you have good credentials at JD (prestige undergrad, T14 or especially T6 law school) then you should absolutely make some noise by putting some feelers out there. It will show up in your comp. Bad resumes are usually very badly compensated at that firm, because they feel lucky to even be associated with a reasonable, if not top tier, law firm. And as we know, there are a lot of bad resumes at JD.

Does this reasoning apply for an NLG as well? I have the good resume you described but without a clerkship. I just have no idea how I would be able to respectfully make noise—especially this early on.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that Jones Day is paying its scotus clerks well. I’m curious, though, about if/how/when special bonuses will affect NLG class of 2020 compensation.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

And how many of those are going to the DC office versus the NY office?

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

What affirmative steps can I take as a non-I&A, no clerkship NLG from a T6/T14 in a Cravath-scale market to get paid (close to) market this year?

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 6th year. I’ve never contacted a recruiter or seriously considered leaving the firm. I’ve been paid very well (major market NYC/LA/SF/Chicago etc.) but for the first time last year my comp did not match up with the firms that did special bonuses in addition to normal bonuses. I am just offering this as a data point because my experience has been fine.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

JD associate here. The larger takeaway is that JD is no different from most generic biglaw firms: the vast majority of associates are T-14 median or above; or top of their class at lower-ranked schools. Which is to say, there is no reason that JD associates should be paid less than their biglaw peers.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 6th year. I’ve never contacted a recruiter or seriously considered leaving the firm. I’ve been paid very well (major market NYC/LA/SF/Chicago etc.) but for the first time last year my comp did not match up with the firms that did special bonuses in addition to normal bonuses. I am just offering this as a data point because my experience has been fine.

I strongly encourage everyone to scrutinize these statements. There are JD employees on these boards trying to pump up the firm. This statement is literally a replica of what we saw on the last page, down to the number of cities mentioned followed by "etc.," with a likely JD employee linking to the website, extolling collegiality, and how there’s an easier path to partnership (which is a glorified senior associate role that 500+ non percentage participant partners at JD have, where you get paid $450k). From last page:

I’m a mid level in a major market (NYC/LA/SF/Boston etc). My compensation has been market every year although for 2021 I expect to make Cravath scale + bonus but without the “special” bonus. I like the people at the firm and I have no plans to leave. I think one of the reasons some attorneys choose JD is because there are better odds of becoming a partner if that is something you’re interested in (https://www.jonesday.com/en/news/2020/1 ... t=BCc0cpaN).

All of this is nonsense. People at JD are not getting paid market, and they’re DEFINITELY not getting paid special bonuses.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

JD associate here. The larger takeaway is that JD is no different from most generic biglaw firms: the vast majority of associates are T-14 median or above; or top of their class at lower-ranked schools. Which is to say, there is no reason that JD associates should be paid less than their biglaw peers.

JD is a bit different. There’s a majority of people who could get a job at another biglaw firm but there’s a healthy minority that falls into that other group: lucky to be there. Those people definitely have their pay suppressed and their work milked for benefit of the partners. And they often get the less sophisticated work, too.

Look, JD is basically a McFirm, just like DLA Pper and Baker McKenzie — and a tier below White & Case. It’s fine but it doesn’t pay to be an associate there really. And not even a junior partner for most. It’s a place that exists for the benefit of the big fish partners, who it finds a way to pay one way or another.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

JD associate here. The larger takeaway is that JD is no different from most generic biglaw firms: the vast majority of associates are T-14 median or above; or top of their class at lower-ranked schools. Which is to say, there is no reason that JD associates should be paid less than their biglaw peers.

JD is a bit different. There’s a majority of people who could get a job at another biglaw firm but there’s a healthy minority that falls into that other group: lucky to be there. Those people definitely have their pay suppressed and their work milked for benefit of the partners. And they often get the less sophisticated work, too.

Look, JD is basically a McFirm, just like DLA Pper and Baker McKenzie — and a tier below White & Case. It’s fine but it doesn’t pay to be an associate there really. And not even a junior partner for most. It’s a place that exists for the benefit of the big fish partners, who it finds a way to pay one way or another.

Are you at JD? I haven't come across more than a couple of people that fall into the category of "lucky to be there."

I agree its generally a McFirm. I'm in one of the smaller markets where there are no better options. I would never go to JD in a major market

[Anonymous User]

I am the NLG anon that bumped this thread. It is good to know generally about firm practices, but I’ll parse what I wrote earlier into two specific questions that I’m trying to get the answer to:

1. Do Cravath scale-market NLGs receive raises during their NLG Summer and, if so, what have those raises been?

2. If the firm does give raises to NLGs during the NLG summer, can we expect raises from $15k-$30k to reflect special bonuses, year-end bonuses, or both?

I have no doubts that the I&A folks that clerked for SCOTUS and high-performing mid-levels are paid well. But, I am more curious about general comp practices toward NLGs and other juniors.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

JD associate here. The larger takeaway is that JD is no different from most generic biglaw firms: the vast majority of associates are T-14 median or above; or top of their class at lower-ranked schools. Which is to say, there is no reason that JD associates should be paid less than their biglaw peers.

JD is a bit different. There’s a majority of people who could get a job at another biglaw firm but there’s a healthy minority that falls into that other group: lucky to be there. Those people definitely have their pay suppressed and their work milked for benefit of the partners. And they often get the less sophisticated work, too.

Look, JD is basically a McFirm, just like DLA Pper and Baker McKenzie — and a tier below White & Case. It’s fine but it doesn’t pay to be an associate there really. And not even a junior partner for most. It’s a place that exists for the benefit of the big fish partners, who it finds a way to pay one way or another.

Are you at JD? I haven't come across more than a couple of people that fall into the category of "lucky to be there."

I agree its generally a McFirm. I'm in one of the smaller markets where there are no better options. I would never go to JD in a major market

I am so confused. Who thinks they are “lucky” to be there? Because you’re top 30% at UCLA rather than median at Duke, people feel “lucky” to be at JD? Is this a JD thing? I’ve never heard of such a thing at any other top vault firm.

[Anonymous User]

I am the NLG anon that bumped this thread. It is good to know generally about firm practices, but I’ll parse what I wrote earlier into two specific questions that I’m trying to get the answer to:

1. Do Cravath scale-market NLGs receive raises during their NLG Summer and, if so, what have those raises been?

2. If the firm does give raises to NLGs during the NLG summer, can we expect raises from $15k-$30k to reflect special bonuses, year-end bonuses, or both?

I have no doubts that the I&A folks that clerked for SCOTUS and high-performing mid-levels are paid well. But, I am more curious about general comp practices toward NLGs and other juniors.

Answers:
(1) Yes, they will get the full raise. It's traditionally been $10k so it's no big deal for the firm to pay you. I have heard of some people getting 7.5k in major markets if the firm thinks you're bad and not at risk to scram. The pay disparity really shows up in the second year, when your compensation covers the second half of your second year and first half of your third year. It should advance by like 50k or more, but it never does for rising third years at JD. It's a huge underpayment, usually 20 to 40k.

(2) No, I don't think the partners will be that generous. Also, the JD employees here pretending to be regular associates spewing nonsense about how people get paid market to lure in unsuspecting laterals (who may get one year of market pay before having their pay suppressed) have made it clear that your "collegiality" and "better change at partnership" (read: senior associate for life) are your compensation rather than cold hard cash as a COVID bonus. This suggests to me that the partnership will not be paying special bonuses. Note that DLA Piper also paid special bonuses this year, so JD is a tier below DLA, which is a McFirm ever there were one. You should reject this and get out to a better firm ASAP.

JD if properly ranked in Vault would be in the 60s or so.

[Anonymous User]

I am so confused. Who thinks they are “lucky” to be there? Because you’re top 30% at UCLA rather than median at Duke, people feel “lucky” to be at JD? Is this a JD thing? I’ve never heard of such a thing at any other top vault firm.

A lot of firms in Vault are overranked because Vault polls nationally, and in a lot of third-tier markets like Columbus, Minneapolis, etc., JD is the top firm there, and so will get a ranking of 10 out of 10. Being the top dog in a backwater helps the Vault rank enormously.

A truly elite firm like Davis, Cleary, etc., which more or less exclusively concentrate quality people with quality credentials, will not get such a high ranking from those people because they literally don't even know what it is. To some degree, Skadden and Latham are also overranked for this reason, though those are both much more prestigious firms than JD. White & Case, DLA and Baker are also less prestigious than their rank would indicate simply because they're everywhere.

JD has a lot of people from second, third and fourth tier law schools. A lot. Even in major markets. People who would never get a job at a top-ranked Vault firm. It's amazing how many people JD snookers into joining due to its Vault ranking. Hopefully the Trump election litigation will bring it down where it belongs.

[Anonymous User]

Answers:
(1) Yes, they will get the full raise. It's traditionally been $10k so it's no big deal for the firm to pay you. I have heard of some people getting 7.5k in major markets if the firm thinks you're bad and not at risk to scram. The pay disparity really shows up in the second year, when your compensation covers the second half of your second year and first half of your third year. It should advance by like 50k or more, but it never does for rising third years at JD. It's a huge underpayment, usually 20 to 40k.

(2) No, I don't think the partners will be that generous. Also, the JD employees here pretending to be regular associates spewing nonsense about how people get paid market to lure in unsuspecting laterals (who may get one year of market pay before having their pay suppressed) have made it clear that your "collegiality" and "better change at partnership" (read: senior associate for life) are your compensation rather than cold hard cash as a COVID bonus. This suggests to me that the partnership will not be paying special bonuses. Note that DLA Piper also paid special bonuses this year, so JD is a tier below DLA, which is a McFirm ever there were one. You should reject this get out to a better firm ASAP.

JD if properly ranked in Vault would be in the 60s or so.

Thank you, this is the answer I was looking for. Every one in my office is very nice, friendly, and fairly open. I have liked my first few months here. But the entire ethos that comes from DC and the MP creeps me out. I had my reasons to go to JD over other firms in the V10-V30 range (practice area, location, etc.). Those reasons still stand, but keep getting overshadowed by the Trump stuff and the pay stuff—all of which seems centralized through DC.

[Anonymous User]

The above is an insane take. There are dozens of associates with Supreme Court clerkships at JD coming from top of class at a T14 and there are dozens of federal appellate clerks with similar credentials. My guess is that compensation will take into account the change in the market with bonuses. However, it is more and more becoming the case that there is no such thing as market because firms are doing different things in terms of matching.

Yeah and those elite resumes are all in the I&A group, which is a world apart from the rest of the firm. (I agree that the group is truly special and those people are definitely getting paid.) Outside of the Midwest (and maybe not even in Chicago), JD is not considered special and all available evidence is that people aren't getting paid unless the firm feels there are serious retention issues-- which are, by the way, what caused the unexpected pay letters in the latter half of last year. People who want to get paid at JD need to find other opportunities to even get paid the market rate. The firm won't feel it has to pay you if you're actually droning away and doing your work quietly, as they want.

I don't think Jones Day deserves all the flak it's getting in this thread. Yes, Issues & Appeals stands head and shoulders above Jones Day's other practice groups. (With 50+ SCOTUS clerks, it stands head and shoulders above nearly every other top firm's practice groups too.) There are many smart, capable associates over in Business & Tort Litigation, Intellectual Property, Financial Markets, and so on. Browse the website and you will spot t-14 grads, Order of Coif-ers, and court of appeals clerks galore. You will also spot associates with only average resumes. That's life. Not everyone can be Kobe or LeBron. Is Jones Day any different from the other firms in its range? I doubt it.

Jones Day is also not just a midwest law firm. It dominates Atlanta and Miami, it is among the most influential firms in DC, and it has respectable beachheads in California, Chicago, and New York. I don't know why you are saying Jones Day is "not considered special" in other markets. Obviously, it doesn't compete with Cravath or Wachtell for associates (aside from its SCOTUS clerks). Has anyone claimed otherwise?

As far as pay goes, this thread confirmed what most of us already knew. A few associates (Issues & Appeals, huge billers, and future leaders in big money groups) get paid above market. Many associates, probably most, get paid at market or somewhat less. And some associates get paid considerably below market, often because of performance issues and often instead of getting axed. Could most Jones Day associates make more money elsewhere? Probably, but every applicant knows that. It's a price some willingly pay in exchange for Jones Day's high-profile work, cordial culture, and giant equity partnership tier.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know much about the BATL practice in New York? Is it any good?
I'm pretty troubled by the comment above about people getting "snookered" by Jones Day's ranking . . . .