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Finished 1L with 2 P, 5 H, 3 DS. Can I focus on boutiques and top DC lit with a few firms in NY as well as my secondary market thrown in? KJD, assume no LR.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Those are great grades - congrats!

Obviously loads of doors are open for you although I would imagine OCS would caution against going for 3 markets. I’d speak to them if I were you. It seems I be a clash of two of their principles - use NY for backup if you’re shooting for a competitive market and don’t bid for more than two markets. But it could be that your grades insulate you from that issue.

I got 1DS, 3H and rest Ps (including both LRWs). What top NY firms on the transactional side are shut off from me regardless of my interview performance? I know Wachtell is. I read somewhere else on here that S&C is practically an auto-offer if you have 6+ Hs, does anyone know where I’d stand with them with the equivalent of 5?

Anonymous User wrote:Finished 1L with 2 P, 5 H, 3 DS. Can I focus on boutiques and top DC lit with a few firms in NY as well as my secondary market thrown in? KJD, assume no LR.

Assuming you're a moderately good interviewer, or better, then you should be fine. Boutiques and top DC lit is competitive even with very good grades, so just be sure to have at least a few NY firms with HUGE HLS summer classes, where you're all but guaranteed a spot. Also, obviously, start thinking about clerkships.

justanotherlurker wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Finished 1L with 2 P, 5 H, 3 DS. Can I focus on boutiques and top DC lit with a few firms in NY as well as my secondary market thrown in? KJD, assume no LR.

Assuming you're a moderately good interviewer, or better, then you should be fine. Boutiques and top DC lit is competitive even with very good grades, so just be sure to have at least a few NY firms with HUGE HLS summer classes, where you're all but guaranteed a spot. Also, obviously, start thinking about clerkships.

Was thinking Cleary, Cravath, S&C, DPW, and maybe skadden. Is that too little?

Anonymous User wrote:

justanotherlurker wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Finished 1L with 2 P, 5 H, 3 DS. Can I focus on boutiques and top DC lit with a few firms in NY as well as my secondary market thrown in? KJD, assume no LR.

Assuming you're a moderately good interviewer, or better, then you should be fine. Boutiques and top DC lit is competitive even with very good grades, so just be sure to have at least a few NY firms with HUGE HLS summer classes, where you're all but guaranteed a spot. Also, obviously, start thinking about clerkships.

Was thinking Cleary, Cravath, S&C, DPW, and maybe skadden. Is that too little?

Check the EIP Statistics spreadsheet and get a sense of what firms have large summer classes. That's a good list; I might add one or two more for good measure.

But really, you should figure out what you actually want and go for that first and foremost -- "boutiques" vs. DC lit vs. NY lit vs. secondary market.

Covington, Paul Weiss, Quinn Emmanuel and Gibson Dunn also big NY firms with a litigation bent and large numbers of 2018 HLS offers (33, 66, 17 and 22).

7H 3P, want lit in Chicago. Currently I have only 15 firms on my bidlist. There's really no other firms I would go to and I don't want to practice anywhere else. Am I being really dumb by only bidding 15?

I would list them but it's usual suspects, Sidley k&e, Jenner etc.

2 DS, 3H, 5P. Also targeting DC lit with NYC as a backup. I know numbers are not quite up there, but how probable is top DC lit?

Anonymous User wrote:Finished 1L with 2 P, 5 H, 3 DS. Can I focus on boutiques and top DC lit with a few firms in NY as well as my secondary market thrown in? KJD, assume no LR.

I'm quoted anon. This is my initial bidlist; don't really know how to structure this, so I'm aware my list may suck. A few things to note:
(1) Goal is to go somewhere that I can get training/connections to work for a USAO or DOJ.
(2) I redacted the firms in my secondary market to not out myself.
(3) Wanted to add Munger and KVN but it seems out of place market wise. Is that the right approach or should I try to bid them anyways?

1. WilmerHale - DC
2. Quinn Emanuel - DC
3. Susman Godfrey - NY
4. Boies - NY
5. Davis Polk - NY
6. Debevoise - NY
7. Arnold & Porter - DC
8. Gibson Dunn - DC
9. Covington - DC
10. Wachtell
11. Skadden - DC
12. Sidley - DC
13. Williams & Connolly
14. Paul Weiss - NY
15. Sullivan & Cromwell - NY
16. Cravath
17. Cleary - NY
18. Redacted
19. Redacted
20. Redacted
21. Kirkland - DC
22. Redacted

Some general advice:

1. For the vast majority of firms, grades will not be the deciding factor. People with LPs and no Hs still get firm jobs. That being said, if your grades are bad, then they will be A factor. Bid widely and wisely.
2. The Vault selectivity rankings are a good proxy for what firms actually care about your grades.
3. DC is a tough market. I had friends with good grades (ended up cum laude) who got an offer from DC. I don’t recommend going all in on DC.
4. Probably don’t do more than two markets. There’s no reason to. You have to pick eventually, just make a decision before you bid.

7H Chi Anon above. I only have 13 chicago firms on my bidlist right now and nothing else. OCS said I didn't need another market (and Chicago is particularly sensitive to people bidding elsewhere) so am I stupid to just bid these? Chi isn't that competitive so I should get all my screeners right?

I am open (but not enthusiastic) about working in DC but never NYC. I hate it there. But DC is so competitive that maybe it's a bad backup.

1. Jenner Chi
2. Sidley Chi
3. K&E Chi
4. Winston Chi
5. Latham Chi
6. Skadden Chi
7. Mayer Chi
8. Baker McKenzie Chi
9. Katten Chi
10. McDermott Chi
11. White and Case Chi
12. Jones Day Chi
13. Perkins Coie Chi

Anonymous User wrote:7H Chi Anon above. I only have 13 chicago firms on my bidlist right now and nothing else. OCS said I didn't need another market (and Chicago is particularly sensitive to people bidding elsewhere) so am I stupid to just bid these? Chi isn't that competitive so I should get all my screeners right?

I am open (but not enthusiastic) about working in DC but never NYC. I hate it there. But DC is so competitive that maybe it's a bad backup.

1. Jenner Chi
2. Sidley Chi
3. K&E Chi
4. Winston Chi
5. Latham Chi
6. Skadden Chi
7. Mayer Chi
8. Baker McKenzie Chi
9. Katten Chi
10. McDermott Chi
11. White and Case Chi
12. Jones Day Chi
13. Perkins Coie Chi

Here’s some general advice. You need a summer job. I’m sure you can stand one summer in NYC if you have to do so. After you do well as a summer, you can always move markets. If you don’t have a summer associate job, you will struggle. Chicago is a smaller market and there is competition from other top schools, please don’t make the mistake of assuming a job.

I’m assuming you haven’t done any pre OCI mailing and interviewing?

Anyway, you need to use all your bid slots and interview with firms. This is the only time that firms will be coming to you, with many open spots and looking to hire. Take full advantage of your opportunity to interview and learn more about firms.

Npret wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:7H Chi Anon above. I only have 13 chicago firms on my bidlist right now and nothing else. OCS said I didn't need another market (and Chicago is particularly sensitive to people bidding elsewhere) so am I stupid to just bid these? Chi isn't that competitive so I should get all my screeners right?

I am open (but not enthusiastic) about working in DC but never NYC. I hate it there. But DC is so competitive that maybe it's a bad backup.

1. Jenner Chi
2. Sidley Chi
3. K&E Chi
4. Winston Chi
5. Latham Chi
6. Skadden Chi
7. Mayer Chi
8. Baker McKenzie Chi
9. Katten Chi
10. McDermott Chi
11. White and Case Chi
12. Jones Day Chi
13. Perkins Coie Chi

Here’s some general advice. You need a summer job. I’m sure you can stand one summer in NYC if you have to do so. After you do well as a summer, you can always move markets. If you don’t have a summer associate job, you will struggle. Chicago is a smaller market and there is competition from other top schools, please don’t make the mistake of assuming a job.

I’m assuming you haven’t done any pre OCI mailing and interviewing?

Anyway, you need to use all your bid slots and interview with firms. This is the only time that firms will be coming to you, with many open spots and looking to hire. Take full advantage of your opportunity to interview and learn more about firms.

No offense dude but this advice is way over the top. A Chi person with 7H will get at least one and probably many offers from the list above. Maybe for interview practice, throw in STB/DPW NYC or someone similar with a huge class and whose offers track grades reliably, but no need to “use all your bid slots”

Npret wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:7H Chi Anon above. I only have 13 chicago firms on my bidlist right now and nothing else. OCS said I didn't need another market (and Chicago is particularly sensitive to people bidding elsewhere) so am I stupid to just bid these? Chi isn't that competitive so I should get all my screeners right?

I am open (but not enthusiastic) about working in DC but never NYC. I hate it there. But DC is so competitive that maybe it's a bad backup.

1. Jenner Chi
2. Sidley Chi
3. K&E Chi
4. Winston Chi
5. Latham Chi
6. Skadden Chi
7. Mayer Chi
8. Baker McKenzie Chi
9. Katten Chi
10. McDermott Chi
11. White and Case Chi
12. Jones Day Chi
13. Perkins Coie Chi

Here’s some general advice. You need a summer job. I’m sure you can stand one summer in NYC if you have to do so. After you do well as a summer, you can always move markets. If you don’t have a summer associate job, you will struggle. Chicago is a smaller market and there is competition from other top schools, please don’t make the mistake of assuming a job.

I’m assuming you haven’t done any pre OCI mailing and interviewing?

Anyway, you need to use all your bid slots and interview with firms. This is the only time that firms will be coming to you, with many open spots and looking to hire. Take full advantage of your opportunity to interview and learn more about firms.

Chi Anon. I've been talking to chi firms, doing informational interviews and receptions, but none have mentioned pre oci interviewing or offers. I brought it up with one of the bigger firms (one of k&e, Sidley, Winston) and they basically shot me down and told me they follow OCSs rules about not doing pre oci. That was a few weeks ago and I get the sense that that's the general attitude toward pre oci here.

Should I really be more aggressive and email some more with resume/transcript and ask for an early interview? Also, is it really that easy to switch locations after an SA? I could handle a summer in NYC as long as I could be sure I wouldn't have to live there permanently.

I got plenty of CBs and offers with 4H and minimal Chicago ties.

No need to freak out or start harassing firms. It'll be fine. If you're that worried (or are a super awkward interviewer or something) toss in some big class NY firms.

Chicago is a big legal market. It's not some small niche area. They hire people.

That being said, it is easier to get transactional positions than litigation, so take that for what's it's worth. I think you're way above fine with your grades.

Edit Normal OCI is perfectly fine for firms. No need to stress about pre-OCI. Definitely don't keep asking a firm if they said no.

Anyone know grades needed to be competitive at WH, Cov, Gibson (all DC)? What about W&C or Kellogg?

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know grades needed to be competitive at WH, Cov, Gibson (all DC)? What about W&C or Kellogg?

Kellogg is the best boutique in the most selective legal market in the country, and probably one of the top 2-3 best boutiques overall. Most people join after federal appellate clerkships (including SCOTUS). In the ordinary case, you need magna-level grades, which means very few Ps and at least a handful of DSs.

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know grades needed to be competitive at WH, Cov, Gibson (all DC)? What about W&C or Kellogg?

I had 4Hs, LR, and work experience going into EIP, and all but struck out in the DC market. Had a callback at one of those 5 but was basically waitlisted -- ignored for a month, then rejected. I was maybe a below-average interviewer, so YMMV. But those firms are very competitive.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know grades needed to be competitive at WH, Cov, Gibson (all DC)? What about W&C or Kellogg?

I had 4Hs, LR, and work experience going into EIP, and all but struck out in the DC market. Had a callback at one of those 5 but was basically waitlisted -- ignored for a month, then rejected. I was maybe a below-average interviewer, so YMMV. But those firms are very competitive.

I have none of that but I am on pace for Magna (right at 4.0) and have fed gov on my resume; average interviewer, no ties, and a “virtual H”. Trying to gauge likelihood of striking out at the 4 big DC firms I mentioned

1DS, 3H, 6P. OCS says I have a virtual H given my management consulting background. Looking into NY corporate market. Do I have a shot at the top 15 firms, minus WLRK? Especially interested in DPW, Latham, Cravath, and Paul Weiss.

Anonymous User wrote:1DS, 3H, 6P. OCS says I have a virtual H given my management consulting background. Looking into NY corporate market. Do I have a shot at the top 15 firms, minus WLRK? Especially interested in DPW, Latham, Cravath, and Paul Weiss.

Yes, though S&C, Cravath, and DPW may be a stretch. PW and Latham should be easily in the target zone for you provide you can do the interview and present as a regular person people won't mind working with.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know grades needed to be competitive at WH, Cov, Gibson (all DC)? What about W&C or Kellogg?

I had 4Hs, LR, and work experience going into EIP, and all but struck out in the DC market. Had a callback at one of those 5 but was basically waitlisted -- ignored for a month, then rejected. I was maybe a below-average interviewer, so YMMV. But those firms are very competitive.

I have none of that but I am on pace for Magna (right at 4.0) and have fed gov on my resume; average interviewer, no ties, and a “virtual H”. Trying to gauge likelihood of striking out at the 4 big DC firms I mentioned

With those grades, you're fine. Apply to other big DC shops, but you'll get an offer at one of those 4.

Anonymous User wrote:1DS, 3H, 6P. OCS says I have a virtual H given my management consulting background. Looking into NY corporate market. Do I have a shot at the top 15 firms, minus WLRK? Especially interested in DPW, Latham, Cravath, and Paul Weiss.

Identical grades (but no virtual H). Also aiming for NY transactional. When I spoke to OCS, they said WLRK probably too much of a stretch, Cravath and S&C a reach but plausible and no others not worth bidding. But I think your grades won’t take you out of contention anywhere other than WRLK. The rest will be based on fit/interviewing skills.

Also, and make of this what you will, but Latham NY is super grade conscious (more than Cravath!) at Columbia and UChicago (they release GPA OCI data). Don’t know how much, if at all, that translates to Harvard. Certainly still worth applying.

Out of interest, why are you interested in those four firms in particular?

Chi Anon again -- so the consensus is I'm fine at 13 Chicago firms and that's it?

Sorry I don't feel comfortable giving anyone else advice lol. But you guys are going to clean house in NYC. In a way I'm jealous because Chi seems to be a more qualitative black box market.