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Hi,

Help me out here. Similar jobs but one in AZ and the other in NM? Is there a good legal market in either? Solid bar assoc.'s? Young professionals? Good mentors? Anything other great attributes?

It depends. Which cities?

Anonymous User wrote:It depends. Which cities?

Phoenix / Albuquerque

Phoenix is going to be quite a bit bigger. Albuquerque is a cool town but is a very small and insular professional community, which can be good, but could be a bit difficult when it feels like everyone else in the bar played high school sports against each other and such. Phoenix is more open to outsiders, I would say, but is also bigger, so more people but potentially more competitive. Neither has a lot of traditional biglaw, but Phoenix is going to have more than ABQ. I would also say Phoenix has a bunch more money overall than ABQ.

What kind of job? That could make a difference.

Also Phoenix has a lot more amenities overall (bigger/richer), but ABQ has a MUCH nicer climate. It gets hot in the summer but not Phoenix hot, and it generally cools down at night. You get pretty clear seasons and snow will fall on occasion in winter (especially in the Sandias), but not enough to be a pain. Both are physically beautiful in different desert-y ways, but personally I think the climate in ABQ lets you do more outside more of the year than Phoenix does.

Politically they’re very different. Both have huge Hispanic populations but a lot of the Hispanic community in ABQ have been there for generations. There’s certainly prejudice/racism in ABQ (and a lot of poverty) but it feels much more Hispanic-friendly than Phoenix does (though I’m not Hispanic so take that with a grain of salt. It’s just that ABQ hasn’t had a Sheriff Joe equivalent that I’m aware of).

I know you weren’t asking about living there per se but I think those are things worth considering.

There will be young professionals and mentors wherever you go - a lot of that is going to be on you to find people and about what you like. One person’s amazing legal community is another person’s Hell.

nixy wrote:Phoenix is going to be quite a bit bigger. Albuquerque is a cool town but is a very small and insular professional community, which can be good, but could be a bit difficult when it feels like everyone else in the bar played high school sports against each other and such. Phoenix is more open to outsiders, I would say, but is also bigger, so more people but potentially more competitive. Neither has a lot of traditional biglaw, but Phoenix is going to have more than ABQ. I would also say Phoenix has a bunch more money overall than ABQ.

What kind of job? That could make a difference.

Also Phoenix has a lot more amenities overall (bigger/richer), but ABQ has a MUCH nicer climate. It gets hot in the summer but not Phoenix hot, and it generally cools down at night. You get pretty clear seasons and snow will fall on occasion in winter (especially in the Sandias), but not enough to be a pain. Both are physically beautiful in different desert-y ways, but personally I think the climate in ABQ lets you do more outside more of the year than Phoenix does.

Politically they’re very different. Both have huge Hispanic populations but a lot of the Hispanic community in ABQ have been there for generations. There’s certainly prejudice/racism in ABQ (and a lot of poverty) but it feels much more Hispanic-friendly than Phoenix does (though I’m not Hispanic so take that with a grain of salt. It’s just that ABQ hasn’t had a Sheriff Joe equivalent that I’m aware of).

I know you weren’t asking about living there per se but I think those are things worth considering.

There will be young professionals and mentors wherever you go - a lot of that is going to be on you to find people and about what you like. One person’s amazing legal community is another person’s Hell.

Thank you for the breakdown! Interesting takes on both of these. I don't know if I can handle the heat in Phoenix (and I do remember the "tent cities" or whatever the prison camps were called). Hopefully the bar is active in ABQ...

They’re fairly different cities. Honestly I’d be worried less about the local bar and make the decision based on where I want to live.

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:They’re fairly different cities. Honestly I’d be worried less about the local bar and make the decision based on where I want to live.

Yeah, I absolute agree with this. How active the local bar is has never affected my life in any meaningful way. Could be just that I'm a hermit, but it's just not something I consider.

If you are interested in biglaw-type work , then Phoenix and it is not even close. If not, then I would consider things like the above-poster mentioned re lifestyle stuff.

I will say that while Phoenix summers are intense, it’s not as bad as you might think and certainly better than a northern-eastern winter.

ITS A DRY HEAT

The NM bar association is quite good, in my opinion. The disciplinary committee of the state is well regarded. There are a LOT of jobs outside ABQ going unfilled due to a shortage of lawyers, but they are all small towns and modest pay. I think NM law is quite fair, especially compared to Texas, where I also have experience. FUCK THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT. There's also often not a lot of law on the books, so it's not like some other states where you've got a ton of conflicting case law due to circuit splits in the state appellate courts.

Before law school, I spoke to an attorney who had worked in another state and she says the NM bar is WAY more professional and behaves better than the other state. I've seen nothing to dispute that.

ABQ is a hole, but it's also ridiculously cheap.

As with most places, there's a strong preference for in-state law grads, but that seems to apply more to the local version of biglaw. Rural areas can't be picky because of the shortage.

NM is quite a different atmosphere than AZ. AZ everybody, their neighbor, and especially the state bureaucracy seems compelled to crawl up your ass at the slightest reason. NM is much more real Old West values of you mind your business, and I'll mind my business, and we'll get along just fine.

I'm sure pay is better in Phoenix. PM me if you want more details.

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:ITS A DRY HEAT

What exactly is that? So you’re not sweating?

Anonymous User wrote:If you are interested in biglaw-type work , then Phoenix and it is not even close. If not, then I would consider things like the above-poster mentioned re lifestyle stuff.

I will say that while Phoenix summers are intense, it’s not as bad as you might think and certainly better than a northern-eastern winter.

But in either place you can get whatever you need? In terms of necessities? Are there events to go to in either? A “scene?”

RioGrandeLaw wrote:The NM bar association is quite good, in my opinion. The disciplinary committee of the state is well regarded. There are a LOT of jobs outside ABQ going unfilled due to a shortage of lawyers, but they are all small towns and modest pay. I think NM law is quite fair, especially compared to Texas, where I also have experience. FUCK THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT. There's also often not a lot of law on the books, so it's not like some other states where you've got a ton of conflicting case law due to circuit splits in the state appellate courts.

Before law school, I spoke to an attorney who had worked in another state and she says the NM bar is WAY more professional and behaves better than the other state. I've seen nothing to dispute that.

ABQ is a hole, but it's also ridiculously cheap.

As with most places, there's a strong preference for in-state law grads, but that seems to apply more to the local version of biglaw. Rural areas can't be picky because of the shortage.

NM is quite a different atmosphere than AZ. AZ everybody, their neighbor, and especially the state bureaucracy seems compelled to crawl up your ass at the slightest reason. NM is much more real Old West values of you mind your business, and I'll mind my business, and we'll get along just fine.

I'm sure pay is better in Phoenix. PM me if you want more details.

Thanks for the info! I didn’t think about the law, etc. but that makes sense and is good to know.

What can one expect in terms of renting ... price wise?

You mentioned Old West values ... can you give an example? Is either place open to outsiders?

Anonymous User wrote:

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:ITS A DRY HEAT

What exactly is that? So you’re not sweating?

Other way around - you sweat, but it evaporates almost instantly, and evaporation is what cools you off.

(Also pretty sure LaLiLuLeLo was joking b/c "it's a dry heat" has become a cliche)

There's certainly a segment of the population in NM that believes in "Old West values", but it ain't Wyoming. It's a strange mix of Old West and welfare state that isn't really functional. It's the West Virginia of the Southwest.

AZ has it's own problems (mainly, retirees NIMBY-ing the s*** out of the place), but I think it's the better option. You only get so many chances in your career to establish ties to a place, and NM is just about the last horse you want to bet on in that regard.

I actually like a lot of things about NM better than AZ for a lot of reasons, but I think AZ will likely have more opportunities and would be an easier place to move from. I also think it’s a little more outsider-friendly.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:If you are interested in biglaw-type work , then Phoenix and it is not even close. If not, then I would consider things like the above-poster mentioned re lifestyle stuff.

I will say that while Phoenix summers are intense, it’s not as bad as you might think and certainly better than a northern-eastern winter.

But in either place you can get whatever you need? In terms of necessities? Are there events to go to in either? A “scene?”

Arizona has professional sports so that's something

Wubbles wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:If you are interested in biglaw-type work , then Phoenix and it is not even close. If not, then I would consider things like the above-poster mentioned re lifestyle stuff.

I will say that while Phoenix summers are intense, it’s not as bad as you might think and certainly better than a northern-eastern winter.

But in either place you can get whatever you need? In terms of necessities? Are there events to go to in either? A “scene?”

Arizona has professional sports so that's something

Yeah, in ABQ it’s the Isotopes and Los Lobos basketball. Both of which are fun, but not the same as pro sports.

But I mean, Phoenix is a massive city, and ABQ is much smaller but still a city. Yes, of course you can get necessities. It’s not actually still the Wild West.

Phoenix will have more of a scene than ABQ, I’m pretty sure.

Anonymous User wrote:
Thanks for the info! I didn’t think about the law, etc. but that makes sense and is good to know.

What can one expect in terms of renting ... price wise?

You mentioned Old West values ... can you give an example? Is either place open to outsiders?

Downtown ABQ has some nice loft apartments for ~ $1,200 a month. Average apartment...maybe $800? Less if you live away from the university area. I'd google it. I paid like $400 a month for a studio crashpad, but it was super basic.

I mean, like, in AZ people love the shit out of homeowners associations and CIC boards with restrictive covenants out the ass. That's not a big NM thing. The south half of the state is red as can be, with tons of Trump supporters, and the north half is very bohemian blue libtards like me. Yet we manage to elect an all-Democrat Congressional delegation, including a female Native American and female Latina, and voted D in the last 3 presidential election. That's kind of an indication that, despite being squashed between two hotbeds of Republicanism, we're a pretty liberal state, or maybe libertarian leaning state. We ain't Colorado though, that's for damn sure. As the poster above said, we're pretty fucked up- public schools suck, although we have some gems in higher education, like New Mexico Tech, St. John's College and New Mexico Military institute. Crime in ABQ is RIDICULOUS. Car theft capital of the nation. But you also get a really interesting populace- lots of Germans in Alamogordo, lots of E. Europeans and Asians up around Los Alamos (mostly scientists), plus all the rich people who want a Taos or Santa Fe retreat, and their associated VERY vibrant artistic communities. Not to mention the Native population. Medical care is...not great.

Open...just like I said above- there's a preference for UNM grads, although I think Colorado grads, and to an extent Arizona grads (my dad ended up here when he got a job offer from the local DAs office-again, that shortage-and he was practicing in AZ as a contract PD) are viewed as a close second. Maybe Texas Tech, SMU, and Baylor too come to think of it. But with the shortage outside the cities, that's a non issue. They're far more interested in whether or not you'll stay for more than a year or two before you say, "fuck this dusty, dry, boring-ass little town."

nixy wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:ITS A DRY HEAT

What exactly is that? So you’re not sweating?

Other way around - you sweat, but it evaporates almost instantly, and evaporation is what cools you off.

(Also pretty sure LaLiLuLeLo was joking b/c "it's a dry heat" has become a cliche)

Having lived in the Southwest with dry heat and the deep South with a crapload of humidity, dry heat is definitely better. With dry heat, shade and wind will at least cool you down some. With a ton of humidity, the heat just sticks to you. There is no cooling down under shade. Plus, mosquitoes thrive in humidity, not so much in dry heat. And mosquitoes are awful.

lavarman84 wrote:

nixy wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:ITS A DRY HEAT

What exactly is that? So you’re not sweating?

Other way around - you sweat, but it evaporates almost instantly, and evaporation is what cools you off.

(Also pretty sure LaLiLuLeLo was joking b/c "it's a dry heat" has become a cliche)

Having lived in the Southwest with dry heat and the deep South with a crapload of humidity, dry heat is definitely better. With dry heat, shade and wind will at least cool you down some. With a ton of humidity, the heat just sticks to you. There is no cooling down under shade. Plus, mosquitoes thrive in humidity, not so much in dry heat. And mosquitoes are awful.

Agree with all this, absolutely.